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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jan 2014 : 20:08:25
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Poll Question:
Do you think Cadderly Bonaduce is the most powerful cleric ever? I mean in game terms, he could cast any cleric spell on the fly, on top of all of his other abilities.
Discuss.
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“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2014 : 20:51:36
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| Matron Yvonnel Baenre was 25th level. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2014 : 21:13:04
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| I forget the name but I believe there is/was a Druid 30 member of the Emerald Enclave. And evidence shows that all 3 of these priests were "Chosen" of their respective gods. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2014 : 22:35:54
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She may have been higher level but Cadderly was able to tap directly into the song of Deneir, or whatever, and do things that were not constrained by game rules. His power as such was fairly evidently beyond most other spellcasters even ones technically higher level.
The level 30 druid was from the Vilhon Reach book. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2014 : 22:38:32
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| Qilué Veladorn, in addition to being a powerful priestess, was a Chosen of Mystra. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2014 : 22:55:52
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| Wasn't Qilue like 16th level? |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4690 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2014 : 23:08:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Qilué Veladorn, in addition to being a powerful priestess, was a Chosen of Mystra.
C16, DD3 was last stat I could find, however there certainly is LA of +2 for being Drow. The LA of being Chosen of Mystra I have no idea. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2014 : 23:20:50
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Not sure if it's legit but check this out.
http://www.angelfire.com/d20/vaelos/Cadderly_Chosen.html |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4690 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2014 : 23:30:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Not sure if it's legit but check this out.
http://www.angelfire.com/d20/vaelos/Cadderly_Chosen.html
I just saw that, fan developed, however looking at CR the LA of +4 was applied to Cadderly. It would appear fair that Qilué Veladorn should get at least that same +4 LA if not more for being Chosen of Mystra. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4448 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 00:27:02
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| Fzoul Chembryl, Chosen of Bane. CR 23 (Clr 17/ Hierophant 2) and quite possibly one of the most strongest clerics and influential characters in the Realms. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 00:32:52
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
She may have been higher level but Cadderly was able to tap directly into the song of Deneir, or whatever, and do things that were not constrained by game rules. His power as such was fairly evidently beyond most other spellcasters even ones technically higher level.
The level 30 druid was from the Vilhon Reach book.
True, but I wouldn't rule out old Yvonnel. She did annihilate the entire compound of House Oblodra. And there's a reason she was referenced in the 4E Menzo book as "The Eternal" and I'm not just talking about her age. ;) |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 00:36:01
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Fzoul was pretty bad-arse. There were always hints of him being something more after having a new body created for him and that involved him being smarter, wiser etc. Wish we could have learned more about that.
Being a Chosen of two goddesses, Qilue was probably a powerhouse beyond just her level too. Another of our Silver Ladies I dearly wish we'd have seen more of. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 00:48:35
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| I just voted no. Cadderly is tough and I really liked the Cleric Quintet series...but I think he's marginally weaker than some of those put forward here. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11859 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 00:49:27
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| guess I should read past the 3rd book in the series. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 01:18:02
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I think alot of the powers of these characters is a classic "it depends" situation.
For instance, Matron Yvonnel Baenre was 25th level, but also the First Matron Mother of Menzo. And I've always likened that position to Vangerdahast, a title that comes with a slew of additional powers, perhaps even in addition to her "special relationship" with Lolth.
And when we're talking Chosen of the various gods, many of these characters probably fall into the same lines, we just don't know about their full powers as of yet. For instance, in Menzo, Yvonnel would absolutely destroy Cadderly, put her on the surface and its possible Cadderly would prevail etc.
For whatever reason, and I know it's been brought up before, we tend to see many more powerful wizards than priests. Rather strange there is such an imbalance. Unless, again, we just don't know as much about them as wizards. ;) |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
746 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 02:08:26
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I think this questions is flawed. "Powerful" can mean MANY things. If you mean "POWERFUL" in the sense of creation magic, Cadderly would obviously be far far more powerful than anyone not a god. If you mean "POWERFUL" in the sense of combat, either personal or otherwise, I think Yvonnel Baenre would utterly destroy Cadderly as she obviously would have access to many unique and extremely powerful destructive and defensive magics (spells and items) just based on the deity she worships.
Likwise, Cadderly would probably be hard to beat in terms of healing and creation magic. |
Edited by - Cards77 on 27 Jan 2014 02:09:40 |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 03:18:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Do you think Cadderly Bonaduce is the most powerful cleric ever? I mean in game terms, he could cast any cleric spell on the fly, on top of all of his other abilities.
Discuss.
I thought the thing was he could also cast any spell up to ninth level......maybe beyond?
Pretty much "on the fly" he didn't need spell components so he was more like a divine sorcerer/priest.
What was his biggest feat?
Is it me or should he have been chosen of Azuth? |
Edited by - jordanz on 27 Jan 2014 03:40:19 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1155 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 06:24:01
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Fzoul certainly held a lot more temporal power than Cadderly. Cadderly wasn't even the highest ranking priest in his own church.
So I guess the question is: Are you defining the power of an NPC by his class levels and in-game abilities?
Sure the Song of Deneir grants Cadderly awesome spellcasting abilities but if he overuses them, they drain his life energy and then he requires the direct intervention of his god to restore his vitality.
He can create virtually any magic item (short of artifacts) imaginable but he chooses not to, preferring more mundane concerns like his garden, tending to his library and tinkering with low-magic inventions. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
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Madpig
Learned Scribe
Finland
148 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 08:41:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Not sure if it's legit but check this out.
http://www.angelfire.com/d20/vaelos/Cadderly_Chosen.html
I think that is not legit. Come on, those psionics. That writeup says Cadderly is able to cast ANY psionics. There was certainly no mention of that kind of thing. It was said in Servant of the Shard that he was mentally so strong Kimmuriel could not affect him psionicly.
Also that thing with spellcasting: It was spefically mentioned in Servant of the Shard that he was NOT prepared to fight drow, when he was prepared to cast against dragon. I give that it is novel, but still its really contradicting with that writeup. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 09:47:43
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I don't think Cadderly's powers can be quantified in game terms. He was made for a story not to be "played". Even if his super spellcasting weakens or kills him he still has the most potential power, doesn't he? Most powerful is pretty subjective but being able to cast ANY spell seems unbeatable.
I also don't think all Chosen are equally powerful. Other chosen certainly have different bonuses for being the chosen of their deity. They may go about it differently, with different inestments and with different results. Presumably the Tome of Universal harmony is the key and so we couldn't say him being Chosen is the same as Fzoul, etc. Deneir and whoever made that book probably found some special way that other deities don't know about or unable to do. (He is the god of literacy, etc. so he might have special connections to magic/books that are distinct from the Chosen of Mystra/Bane, etc. ) While in game terms things are standardized and made equal the plot of a story, much less a "real" place with magic, don't follow those rules necessarily.
I had previously assumed Yvonnel destroying the Obladra compound was an act of Lolth not her personal power (or referencing game mechanics in any way)
I took the original post to be refering to spellcasting power not attempting
to determine who has most "power" on the whole. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 10:48:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
I think this questions is flawed. "Powerful" can mean MANY things. If you mean "POWERFUL" in the sense of creation magic, Cadderly would obviously be far far more powerful than anyone not a god. If you mean "POWERFUL" in the sense of combat, either personal or otherwise, I think Yvonnel Baenre would utterly destroy Cadderly as she obviously would have access to many unique and extremely powerful destructive and defensive magics (spells and items) just based on the deity she worships.
Likwise, Cadderly would probably be hard to beat in terms of healing and creation magic.
Well don't forget that any spell Old Baenre can cast, Cadderly can cast as well. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 11:46:02
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I didn't vote, but as with most of these threads, the safe and smart answer is "no". Or rather "we don't know". He's clearly top-tier, but to claim the mantle of "most powerful ever" you simply need to overshadow everyone so completely that anyone can't even think of a contender, whereas with Cadderly we can. Iyraclea, the Mistmaster, Holycoin Olehm, Qilué, Matron Baenre, Fzoul - those can all be argued to be in his league, though we know little about some. I guess that one Sharran Prince of Shade would qualify as well (I don't follow the Shades really).
Leaving Shinthala aside since she's a druid, but she's another big fish. On the matter of non-cleric powerful worshippers/agents, so is Slarkrethel (well, big squid in his case ) and most Chosen of Mystra. |
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Edited by - Mapolq on 27 Jan 2014 11:54:36 |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 11:56:49
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Cadderly is far from being the most powerfull cleric ever. Please provide us with a citation that says he can cast every existing spell (I doubt there is one).
It would be rather strange that a lesser deity can provide one of his choosen with a far more powerfull ability then every major deity (even the godess of magic) ever has. |
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Madpig
Learned Scribe
Finland
148 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 12:31:42
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Cadderly is far from being the most powerfull cleric ever. Please provide us with a citation that says he can cast every existing spell (I doubt there is one).
It would be rather strange that a lesser deity can provide one of his choosen with a far more powerfull ability then every major deity (even the godess of magic) ever has.
Source was that writeup earlier in this scroll. |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 13:13:57
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No, because he shares his surname with a member of the Patridge Family and that makes him highly vulnerable to mockery.
Honestly, who knows?
Who's the author? Who's the DM? There's no canon answer for a shared world like FR. |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
746 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 14:08:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
I think this questions is flawed. "Powerful" can mean MANY things. If you mean "POWERFUL" in the sense of creation magic, Cadderly would obviously be far far more powerful than anyone not a god. If you mean "POWERFUL" in the sense of combat, either personal or otherwise, I think Yvonnel Baenre would utterly destroy Cadderly as she obviously would have access to many unique and extremely powerful destructive and defensive magics (spells and items) just based on the deity she worships.
Likwise, Cadderly would probably be hard to beat in terms of healing and creation magic.
Well don't forget that any spell Old Baenre can cast, Cadderly can cast as well.
I don't really see how this translates into game terms. Maybe it doesn't. He may be able to cast every cleric spell from the "core" spells plus the domains that Denier has, but there are still plenty of spells that are unique to Lolth in general and Menzo in particular. |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
746 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 14:23:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Madpig
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Cadderly is far from being the most powerfull cleric ever. Please provide us with a citation that says he can cast every existing spell (I doubt there is one).
It would be rather strange that a lesser deity can provide one of his choosen with a far more powerfull ability then every major deity (even the godess of magic) ever has.
Source was that writeup earlier in this scroll.
Which is a fan write up, and not anywhere near canon. Not saying it's wrong or that I know everything.
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Denier is the god of knowledge, therefore he knows and can grant ALL spells ever devised?
This sounds like a question that is above my pay grade.  |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 15:20:58
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Actually, Oghma is the god of knowledge, Deneir is the god of glyphs and literacy (but is one of the 'gods of knowledge' under Oghma).
I think, from a canon point of view, Cadderly could cast every cleric/druid spell (at least those not unique to other faiths). I don't recall him casting any wizard spells in the novels (let alone psionics). He has a powerful mind, is clearly (IMO) a Chosen of Deneir, and is certainly ONE of the most powerful priests ever...but there are contenders for THE most powerful priest ever. I don't think Cadderly is a clear-cut owner of that position. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 16:18:15
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One thing I've always been curious about, we have people like the Simbul and the Srinshee (who is supposedly 54th level if i recall right or maybe that's the Simbul, I honestly forget), but we haven't ever seen a priest higher than 30th I believe. I wonder if Ed has some characters squirreled away that addresses this. Or, do divine casters usually not get that high of a level for some reason we don't yet know?
I do remember the 2E Underdark book referencing Lolth generally doesn't let her priests get higher than 22nd level or so, rewarding them with either divine advancement or destruction around that power level. Maybe it holds the same with other deities? |
Edited by - Eilserus on 27 Jan 2014 16:19:46 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 16:29:39
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| I seem to recall Ed addressing that question Eilserus and saying that most priests who gain that much power are 'taken' by their deity for work beyond the mortal world. Basically, the deity sees this powerful agent of their's and says 'I have more important work for you than tending my flock...let such endeavors rest on other shoulders now.' Said priest is then used in whatever fashion the god needs. Mayhaps they are transformed into another creature (I believe the yochlol are former Llothite priestesses of some power, for instance) or are made into holy artifacts, there is no limit but imagination. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2014 : 17:22:43
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| Makes sense, I remember Quenthel Baenre was made into a Yochlol after Drizzt gutted her in Siege of Darkness. |
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Cadderly Bonaduce is the most powerful cleric ever
