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William_Ronald
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Jan 2014 : 18:09:10
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When did the drow of the Realms become the drow as they exist today, in terms of alignment, attitudes and abilities. I know that the drow went into the Underdark after the Dark Disaster in Miyeritar in -10,500 DR. However, were those elves who fled to the Underdark truly the drow as they are known in the Realms today>
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2014 : 18:20:10
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I would guess both yes and no. Culturally they would have been different as at that time there were dark elf Coronals or males in positions of power and authority, they used high magic to enslave dragons and do all sorts of horrific things that even the dark elves of today would shy away from, according to Lost Empires and were not a subterranean race. I would think the priestesses of Lolth required some time to stamp males out of all aspects of import in drow society, though maybe as quickly as a few centuries.
Definitely an interesting question. |
Edited by - Eilserus on 16 Jan 2014 18:20:54 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4256 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2014 : 19:12:22
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As with most mutations, it probably took a generation or two for the first signs of their innate powers to start coming to the fore...as well as to breed out abnormal aberrations that were occurring.
An drow elven generation seems to be about every couple of centuries or so...so I'm guessing within the first five hundred years they were already starting to be able to breed true.
Just a thought.
As far as culture, that probably took longer. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2014 : 19:14:28
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Culture changes, the Drow became Drow as a result of High Magic when the Descent occurred. Their light blindness, etc. all occurred then. What they are now is a product of the conditions and deities they follow. So your current Drow is a product of ancient events and current upbringing.
After all "When you need help, ask the Drow." *wink* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2014 : 19:38:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
After all "When you need help, ask the Drow." *wink*
Nice reference. 
I've long theorized that there was some faerzress-induced mutations, too, that led to the current state of the drow. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2014 : 19:58:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
After all "When you need help, ask the Drow." *wink*
Nice reference.
I've long theorized that there was some faerzress-induced mutations, too, that led to the current state of the drow.
I was actually just about to ask that. The Lady Penitent series told us that the High Magic Curse bound the dark elves to the faerzress. And we know that the Curse also caused the light sensitivity.
The levitation has been shown in earlier novels to be a gift of Lolth (and its not really innate anyway since only nobles can do it) The abilities to conjure globes of magical darkness and fairie fire would seem to be Lolth given, but could also have naturally developed for survival. To me, infrared vision is the trickiest. Divine blessing or natural selection? |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2014 : 20:26:01
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| I think the 'blessings of Lloth' are still tied to the faerzress and are just passed off as Lloth-given. The High Magic used to drive them into the Underdark altered (or severed) their tie to the Weave (as evidenced by their inability to use High Magic...until that was changed during the novels) and was replaced by a connection to the faerzress. Lloth may have used some sort of divine power to alter that tie to grant the drow their abilities (and is thus a gift from her) or it may just be a lie meant to keep the drow loyal to her (which is what I go with in my homebrew). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2014 : 20:27:04
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| There's been several times that the drow are referenced as drawing their magic power from the local faerzress as opposed to normal spellcasting like surface wizards. And their magic is supposed to be very strong. Makes a guy wonder what that would mean in game terms or if it's ever been dealt with aside from being mentioned as flavor. I wonder if the original intention was Correllon cutting them off completely from magic until they found a new source of it. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2014 : 20:28:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've long theorized that there was some faerzress-induced mutations, too, that led to the current state of the drow.
Yes after I sent last clearly environment clearly could have been a factor. Some of the Drow equipment required the radiation to maintain life. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2014 : 23:00:47
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The rulebooks specifically state that drow lose some racial abilities (specifically, their innate spells and special Magic Resistance) after prolonged time away from Underdark radiations. Not from presence of sunlight, just from lack of Underdark.
Much the same applies to magical items of drow manufacture. Elves like moonlight, drow like faerzress.
Elves are well known for having some intrinsic link with natural magic, epitomized by their almost druid-like zen High Mages. Dark elves might have their own High Mages, but attuned to unnatural faerzress energy flows instead of natural ones - at least, assuming they done‘t have a social force (like priestesses of Lolth) who eliminate access to such studies. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2014 : 03:44:56
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quote:
Originally posted by William_Ronald
When did the drow of the Realms become the drow as they exist today, in terms of alignment, attitudes and abilities. I know that the drow went into the Underdark after the Dark Disaster in Miyeritar in -10,500 DR. However, were those elves who fled to the Underdark truly the drow as they are known in the Realms today>
They were drastically changed into the drow of today by the Descent, and prior to that, looked much like any other elf, but with slightly darker skin-tones and black hair (which turned white after their Curse.) It was the interference by dark gods like Vaerhaun, Ghaunadaur, and Lolth that turned them evil, and turned them toward committing so many atrocities that so greatly offended other elves. |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2014 : 08:28:31
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| Whether it's breeding or the Descent, I think it took some time for the culture to form (male Coronals pointed out earlier) |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2511 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2014 : 16:38:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
I was actually just about to ask that. The Lady Penitent series told us that the High Magic Curse bound the dark elves to the faerzress.
LP is... mmm... noticeably out of line with all other lore and continuity. Which was discussed through 6 pages here.
quote:
The levitation has been shown in earlier novels to be a gift of Lolth (and its not really innate anyway since only nobles can do it)
Or it may be that usually only the nobles can afford to spend time on training to fully develop the innate abilities. Was [url=http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16442]discussed[/url] before, to no certain conclusion.
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The abilities to conjure globes of magical darkness and fairie fire would seem to be Lolth given, but could also have naturally developed for survival.
I'd lump these with affinity to radiation magic in general. Whether it's a gift, side effect of the curse or both. quote:
To me, infrared vision is the trickiest. Divine blessing or natural selection?
An improvement of the pre-existing elven night vision as a side effect of light sensitivity?
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I think the 'blessings of Lloth' are still tied to the faerzress and are just passed off as Lloth-given. [...] Lloth may have used some sort of divine power to alter that tie to grant the drow their abilities (and is thus a gift from her) or it may just be a lie meant to keep the drow loyal to her (which is what I go with in my homebrew).
I prefer the version that she sabotaged the curse a little. As both amusing and in character.
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
There's been several times that the drow are referenced as drawing their magic power from the local faerzress as opposed to normal spellcasting like surface wizards.
Didn't see that, just that the reliance on radiation quasimagic is co wide, the nearby cities get abandoned or destroyed when it dries up - e.g. Sshammath was big and strong, but survived only because of several lucky factors adding up to boost arcane magic.
quote:
And their magic is supposed to be very strong. Makes a guy wonder what that would mean in game terms or if it's ever been dealt with aside from being mentioned as flavor.
Quasimagic allows enchantment without paying the usual price. Thus stronger enchantments rare for normal arcane magic practice (+3 and up swords, driftdisks, etc) become fairly common, which in turn frees the efforts and resources for enchantment of more complex items, like those flying daggers.
Also, 3e materials allowed CL boost in faerzess areas - via feat, of course. 
quote:
I wonder if the original intention was Correllon cutting them off completely from magic until they found a new source of it.
He is a god of elven magic, not a god of magic. 
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Whether it's breeding or the Descent, I think it took some time for the culture to form (male Coronals pointed out earlier)
Apples and oranges. "Coronals" refers to the realm level - and it must have been effectively removed by the Descent itself. The pre-existing House level of organization remained, thus balance and coalitions between stronger Houses became the new top level of power. And on the House level... there were various references, including early elves being mostly matriarchal.
But for the drow, reasons for matriarchy are trivial: it's the theocracy first of all, and Lolth prefers females in the clergy. The switch to the theocracy was also trivial: just take a look at the history of Bhaerynden and Golothaer. Most communities that survived early internal squabbles were those following priests, like Menzoberra the Kinless. Both because of their prophetic powers and because a church of one deity is bound to be cohesive enough to be an uniting factor, even when they are this competitive among their own.
Of course, the development of radiation quasimagic was what made the theocracy stable with given background and conditions. Without this, the wizards would be far too important to lord over them and/or far too busy to use their power for anything other than item enchantment and fire support of patrols/hunters/guards. To trace a path the other way - Sshammath may became viable and even rich, but the transition involved bumping up the number of magically talented males, strong incentive for pouring this resource to intense development (faerzess drying up) and a perfect opportunity to boost research (Netherese caches). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2014 : 08:00:34
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quote:
Apples and oranges. "Coronals" refers to the realm level - and it must have been effectively removed by the Descent itself. The pre-existing House level of organization remained, thus balance and coalitions between stronger Houses became the new top level of power. And on the House level... there were various references, including early elves being mostly matriarchal.
Source for elves being matriarchal? That's the first I hear of it, and I like the early elves a lot!
quote:
But for the drow, reasons for matriarchy are trivial: it's the theocracy first of all, and Lolth prefers females in the clergy. The switch to the theocracy was also trivial: just take a look at the history of Bhaerynden and Golothaer. Most communities that survived early internal squabbles were those following priests, like Menzoberra the Kinless. Both because of their prophetic powers and because a church of one deity is bound to be cohesive enough to be an uniting factor, even when they are this competitive among their own.
Aye, I agree, but the Descent was in -10,000 DR. Bhaerynden is found 1,000 years later and in -8,800 DR it collapses.
-8,170 DR is the first mention of Guallidurth.
Menzoberra's time is five thousand years later, in -3917 DR.
That means it took around 1,000 years for the culture to form, assuming it was formed when Bhaerynden was taken over by the early drow. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2511 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2014 : 15:50:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Source for elves being matriarchal? That's the first I hear of it, and I like the early elves a lot!
Offhand mentions, not something maintained. Off the top of my eyestalks, the stated reason why "Hive Mothers" are commonly called so by humanoids is: because elves were the first to find out the structure of a beholder hive and tell the tale, and they used similarities with their own society whenever possible. The creature in question, of course, is hermaphroditic just like most other beholder variations.
quote:
Aye, I agree, but the Descent was in -10,000 DR. Bhaerynden is found 1,000 years later and in -8,800 DR it collapses.
-8,170 DR is the first mention of Guallidurth.
Menzoberra's time is five thousand years later, in -3917 DR.
That means it took around 1,000 years for the culture to form, assuming it was formed when Bhaerynden was taken over by the early drow.
To settle down or carve out the place for themselves, recover (or compensate for) the losses of the Descent (a lot of best technological and magical knowledge had to be lost or not appliable anymore) and adapt to the new environment, start politicking again and then accumulate enough magical power for their cities to self-destroy.
But my point is, it's not any continuous development - and not much of a development at all. The earlier half reconstructed, half adapted forms turned out to be dead ends. The later drow are descendant of those who managed to either hold together or run away before others blew themselves up... and remain strong and organized enough to survive this secondary exodus. If most of those groups were centered around a single faith (which is quite likely), their transformation into theocracies melded with the earlier (and quite viable) clan structure was almost inevitable. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2014 : 14:01:23
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| I thought it was said someplace that it is only in Menzoberranzan that the females rule so strongly. I'm likely wrong, as I'm unable to cite any sources, and most of the sources I'm familiar with is centered on Menzoberranzan. It took some time for other drow cities to even be mentioned within realms lore, and then even longer for those places to receive attention that would detail them. |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2014 : 14:06:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
I thought it was said someplace that it is only in Menzoberranzan that the females rule so strongly. I'm likely wrong, as I'm unable to cite any sources, and most of the sources I'm familiar with is centered on Menzoberranzan. It took some time for other drow cities to even be mentioned within realms lore, and then even longer for those places to receive attention that would detail them.
Not all drow cities are matriarchies, but the majority of them are. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Mar 2014 14:08:10 |
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When did the drow become the "drow"
