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Pazuzu
Seeker
Germany
61 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jan 2014 : 16:15:29
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Hello wise community,
I am just preparing the next session of "Shadowdale - The Scouring of the Land" and I have to admit that I do have some problems with the maps in Chapter 3 "The Dread Lair of Alokkair" and Chapter 4 "Azmaer's Folly". You can find the maps I am talking about also in Wizard's archived map gallery here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20070808a
So well, I hope you can illuminate some of my confusions:
1. The map "Skull Subterran and Drow Redoubt, 1 of 3" on page 85 (or the 12th map in Wizard's gallery) shows a way from location 7 to 2b. Though, it is said that the way from 2b will lead to 5 which would totally not fit together. Is that a mistake on the map or I totally do not get a point here? (The way from location 7 is also said to lead to 7... it seems the cartographer mixed up location 5 and 7)
2. On page 81 it is stated that the characters can reach the Shadowdark from the floor of the Grinding Gulf. That map is shown on page 55 and cannot be found in Wizard's gallery. I would get the way in the north-west would lead to the Shadowdark. Am I correct?
3. Referenced to #2 it is said that the way will lead to location 1 on map "Skull Subterran and Drow Redoubt, 1 of 3". Though, I cannot see any connection here. Do I just assume there is a very small way not shown on that map?
Actually I think these maps are really confusing.
Thank you for all your help in advance!
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May your dice obey your will. - Gary Gygax (*1938 - †2008) |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2014 : 17:32:36
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1. 7 connects to 2b, apparently with 6 somewhere in the middle. I agree that the labels suggesting that 2b connects with 5, and 7 connects with 7, are errors.
2. I'm not sure. I haven't read through the whole adventure yet. I see passages going both east and west on that map on page 55. And of course the whole north wall of area 13 is missing. The stairs, of course, both appear to go upward, but neither of the passages is marked.
3. I don't see the reference you're talking about.
The numbering on the "subterranes" maps is terrible, and the fact that there are a couple of obvious errors casts everything else into doubt. I would not assume that "it's a very small way not shown on that map" -- instead, I would assume that it connects with another passage somewhere which might have an erroneous label or might be missing a label.
My curiosity is piqued, after glancing through and seeing that it ties up some loose ends with famous named NPCs. I'm gonna have to read it. |
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Pazuzu
Seeker
Germany
61 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2014 : 18:30:46
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I was referencing my own number 2 :-)
But thank you for your help. At least I do not feel stupid anymore not being able to read a map obviously full of errors :-) |
May your dice obey your will. - Gary Gygax (*1938 - †2008) |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2014 : 06:03:46
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| A lot of 3.5E products suffer from a lack of editorial attention to detail. Perhaps you could compare these maps to the original version of the Shadowdale booklet in the 2E campaign setting boxed set. |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2014 : 19:59:14
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I don't think a lot of editing was actually taking place at the end of 3e on into 4e. It got pretty damn bad, there, for awhile. I can think of at least two different examples of two separate (and unrelated) pieces of lore for the same exact locations.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Pazuzu
Seeker
Germany
61 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2014 : 20:15:37
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I do not think that I will get any better information from a second edition source book, because these maps are adventure specific.
I think the best way to handle my third problem (which is actually the worst) is to come up with a very small way that leads to the floor of the Grinding Gulf. Would you agree or suggest something different? In case you also run this adventure, what did you do? |
May your dice obey your will. - Gary Gygax (*1938 - †2008) |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
751 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2014 : 20:47:51
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| While I don't have your answers, I would like to mention that I am also running into several map inconsistencies in my game as well. Specifically, the 3rd Edition Silver Marches map is totally different than the maps in the Forgotten Realms Atlas. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2014 : 21:49:39
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THOSE inconsistencies are due to the 9.2° counter-clockwise rotation of the maps in 3e, which affected the southern lands MUCH worse (because 'pie-slices' of terrain were taken right out).
The only way to reconcile all the inconsistencies is to just go back to the 1e/2e terrain layout. But that will never happen, because too many egos are involved in all the changes since then. Thus, the 1e/2e FR planet is NOT the same one as the 3e/4e planet. And thank god for that - OUR FR is still out there somewhere, safe and sound (and probably hiding from Wizbro).
Besides, Drizzt and Bruennor are very happy with the nice, balmy weather they've been having since they've been dropped to around 52° latitude (about the same as London). Those crazy guys! They've been considering turning Kelvin's Cairn into the world's biggest water slide.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jan 2014 21:52:38 |
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Pazuzu
Seeker
Germany
61 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2014 : 22:10:18
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| Thank you for your input. But these maps are so small scaled and specific that I cannot blame the rotation for the errors. |
May your dice obey your will. - Gary Gygax (*1938 - †2008) |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2014 : 22:31:25
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| Not sure about your points 2 and 3, but regarding point 1, that map is a redrawn version of the Beneath the Twisted Tower map from the 2e campaign setting adventure Shadowdale. So the complete map of the undercaverns, including how they connect to the Twisted Tower, can be found in that adventure. And you're right; 5 is a dead-end cavern (with a large pool of burning hot mud), and does not connect with the passages between 2B and 7. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Pazuzu
Seeker
Germany
61 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2014 : 22:42:19
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| Thank you very much, that really was a good answer. I will dig into my archives and try to find that adventure and then hopefully answers to my questions :-) |
May your dice obey your will. - Gary Gygax (*1938 - †2008) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2014 : 15:34:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Pazuzu
Thank you for your input. But these maps are so small scaled and specific that I cannot blame the rotation for the errors.
Sorry, I was responding to Cards77's post above mine.
Carelessness where the maps are concerned is a pet-peeve of mine. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2014 15:35:33 |
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Pazuzu
Seeker
Germany
61 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2014 : 15:38:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Pazuzu
Thank you for your input. But these maps are so small scaled and specific that I cannot blame the rotation for the errors.
Sorry, I was responding to Cards77's post above mine.
Carelessness where the maps are concerned is a pet-peeve of mine.
I did understand both; the respond and also special interest of maps. I really like your maps :-) |
May your dice obey your will. - Gary Gygax (*1938 - †2008) |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
751 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2014 : 22:15:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
THOSE inconsistencies are due to the 9.2° counter-clockwise rotation of the maps in 3e, which affected the southern lands MUCH worse (because 'pie-slices' of terrain were taken right out).
The only way to reconcile all the inconsistencies is to just go back to the 1e/2e terrain layout. But that will never happen, because too many egos are involved in all the changes since then. Thus, the 1e/2e FR planet is NOT the same one as the 3e/4e planet. And thank god for that - OUR FR is still out there somewhere, safe and sound (and probably hiding from Wizbro).
Besides, Drizzt and Bruennor are very happy with the nice, balmy weather they've been having since they've been dropped to around 52° latitude (about the same as London). Those crazy guys! They've been considering turning Kelvin's Cairn into the world's biggest water slide.
One of the things that bothers me the most EVERY SINGLE game session is how in the Atlas map, the Moonwood appears to come down RIGHT to the north gate of Silverymoon, while every other map I've ever seen shows the Southern tip of the Moonwood ending a considerable distance from Silverymoon. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2014 : 22:22:26
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3e also lost a small forest there - The Everwood, just south of the Rauvin mountains, but well above the High Forest.
One of several forests 3e seems to have lost track of. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2014 : 23:03:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
So the complete map of the undercaverns, including how they connect to the Twisted Tower, can be found in that adventure.
Just to add some specifics:
The map on page 85 is from page 68 of the Shadowdale book.
The map on page 89 is from page 51 "
The map on page 93 is from page 69 "
The map on page 119 is from page 34 "
The map on page 121 is from page 39 "
The map on page 141 is from page 29 "
The map on page 145 is from pages 12-13 "
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Topic |
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Problems with Maps of Shadowdale
