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Athelan
Acolyte
USA
4 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 22:29:24
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I run a campaign set in 1360DR.
My group has a paladin of Helm who has family ties to a ruling house in Melvaunt. He is dead set on raising an army of followers, and with the help of the rest of the party (a well-rounded group), conquer Melvaunt and make it a bastion of lawful goodness on the northern banks of the Moonsea. While this doesn't appear impossible, it does seem to be at the top levels of difficult.
Any tips on DMing such a thing? From a cursory review of the factions around the region, it appears this could spark a war of vast proportions. I could see a lot of geopolitics coming to play here and I would really like some help on anticipating how the varied factions in and around this area may respond to such actions.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4253 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 00:44:19
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If at any time he seems to gain any renown and chance of obtaining his goal....assassins will strike. You should make the dark movers and shakers very proactive in trying to kill him. Many players are never forced into defense...this should be one of those times.
These attacks should be well planned and have real chances of killing the character.
If they do kill him, make it hard to get him back! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 02:40:13
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I, personally, would go for the approach of taking over the leadership of the city -- getting people loyal to you in key positions. It's more time-consuming than war, but you don't end with a populace that's made at you for killing the other half of the populace. And there would be a lot more role-playing potential in the various intrigues involved in conquering a city from within by taking over its leadership.
And taking over the leadership of a city, rather than marching in with armies, is a tactic already widely used in the Realms.  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 04:07:44
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I like Wooly's idea.
Maybe even kind of mix it up a little with Dalor's concept of employing assassins to provide "political incentive" for the problem-causing politicos among Melvaunt's nobility. The assassins could be used to watch [and strike, when necessary] those people in positions that can't be easily or conveniently compromised. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6445 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 08:32:37
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As an evil DM, i quite often use the assassin idea Dalor suggested, along with many others.
When PC's get famous or irritate powerful people it only makes sense for those people to try and eliminate the threat.
Even a lowly mayor or government official can hire thugs to attack the PCin his cot in an inn while he sleeps. Or pay the serving staff to poison his food.
If the PCs get on the bad side of really powerful people then you are looking at defamation before death, so imposters are likely to spring up performing bad deeds in his name.
Then there is the tactic of eliminating the PCs allies and family, either through blackmail, kidnapping, murder, anything nasty to make sure the PC is alone and an easy target.
Finally you move on to an escalation of assassination attempts. Thugs, thieves, bandit groups, monstrous creatures teleported into his bathroom cubicle, and finally contract killings from skilled guild members.
I love setting the bad guys on the party rather than the other way around. It gives a game a more realistic feel and can really terrify a party and make them reconsider their actions and goals.
When the party in my campaign start to become known to the big bad slugs in my campaign i will be sending a team of assassins after them. Each one custom designed to counter a PC's skill set. So a golem of some sort (ie immune to the physical damage of the barbarian), and abjurer to counter and dismiss the wizard's summoned creatures, a blackguard to counter the paladin, a monk to counter the ranger, and a few more when i think of them.
Hopefully it will be a blood bath and the party will reconsider whether they actually want to get involved with fighting the big bad guys after all. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 10:10:58
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Keep in mind that Melvaunt has the "ruling class" of the merchant families and if you seek to get a paladin of Helm at the top of the "food chain" then it will lead to dealings with these families and they will do what it takes to keep their business and positions of power in place.
What dazz suggested is a good way and donīt be too shy to put the PCs at crossroads where the group needs to decide a lesser evil, will be especially challanging for the paladin.
Also remember, if the PCs mess up make them feel the consequences, including death. These kinds of campaigns are heavily world politics and such not be, in my opinion, mere "slay the villain and be merry", but show them the true face of an unmoral world.
If the paladin creates an army and marches on Melvaunt, he will get the attention of the Zhentarim who will not allow a "goody two shoe" to set up a beacon of good on their northern borders. Should he succeed in conquering Melvaunt, send in the Zhents to drive him off, have business ties to the old "ruling class" seek out revenge for their contacts toppling.
Most importantly, leave the ending open until you reach it. Donīt pre-determine the outcome of it all, have the players shape the events and if they make too many mistakes, let them suffer the consequences and if that means they fail in the end, let it happen. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 16:01:27
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Plenty of good advice all around. I'll just add a bit regarding the area's geopolitics (my take on it, anyhow). Zhentil Keep already opposes Melvaunt, so your PCs could probably avoid a Zhent invasion if they're smart, i.e. keep the region's status quo pretty much unchanged. Zhentil Keep won't care all that much whether it's a paladin or Joe the Merchant calling the shots at Melvaunt. They'd like to march into it anyhow, they just can't, given the great difficulty of the task and the fact that if they seriously attempt to, other cities (especially Hillsfar and Mulmaster) can ally with Melvaunt and wreak havoc in the Zhent holdings - it could be a catastrophe. I wouldn't make a Zhent invasion (Zhent assassins would make more sense, if the paladin pisses them off) unless the PCs really screw up politically and somehow manage to unite the other cities against them. The Zhents can't even muster an invasion of Phlan or the northern Dales due to the tense situation in the area, Melvaunt is practically unassailable for them (and if your guy is from Melvaunt, he knows it).
A possible setup for an invasion is if the paladin is self-righteous and proud enough to, say, issue an ultimatum to the entire Moonsea regarding their immoral practices, start harassing their shipping and threatening everyone with military action. That'd probably put Hillsfar, Mulmaster and Zhentil Keep (and even Thentia and the smaller city-states) in a position to support or at least turn a blind eye to anyone wanting to crush the PCs. Since, hey... they'd actually have become the people who're plunging the area into chaos and war in that case.
That's all after they actually take power in Melvaunt, of course. If they field an army to take it, all bets are up, it really depends heavily on the situation. Hell, the group could possibly manage to get *support* from the Zhents if they played it right (but the paladin would probably have.... reservations). |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 01 Nov 2013 16:20:53 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 16:21:00
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| Better quest for that holy avenger. Mr. paladin is gonna need it to fend off the hordes of spell slinging casters from Zhentil Keep, Hillsfar, and the Cloaks of Mulmaster and maybe even the Red Wizards of Thay. I hope you keep us updated. This sounds like a really rough objective to accomplish in the Moonsea and very curious how efforts turn out! :) |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 16:24:12
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| One thing I've always considered in the 4E era would be the realm of Teshar being rebuilt. With Zhentil Keep wiped out, I had an idea of a group of PCs rebuilding Yulash as their main base and to empire build from there. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 17:22:22
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Mapolq, you forget that Zhentil Keep does have a navy and they can ship troops in the night towards the shores near Melvaunt in the aftermath as news reaches Zhentil Keep that Melvaunt has fallen and it is easier now for them to try and seize it with reduce defenses and they can be styled as liberators from foreign aggression.
Now let us look at it from a geographical point how the army would have to go about.
An army is not a small amount of capable combatants. They are spotted from further away and they also need to be supplied and that means their supply lines are visible in one way or the other.
Now remember that Melvaunt lies to the south of Thar, that means an approaching army will have to deal with the inhabitants of Thar, i highly doubt the paladin will attempt to subdue the humanoids of Thar and send them against Melvaunt. Coming from the aoutheast means Thentia, independant and feared for itīs magical inhabitants, too small to effectively support an army big enough to conquer Melvaunt which after all has 40000 inhabitants according to The Moonsea sourcebook which is pre 1372. South lies the moonsea and you canīt get enough ships to try a naval invasion from the southern shores because the Melvaunt navy is a force to be reckoned with and will make any landing attempts with a hostile force very difficult. That leaves the west and Phlan which coul possibly support an army bound for Melvaunt but what if this army fails? It means the ire of Melvaunt turns towards Phlan and caught between Zhentil Keep and Melvaunt in hostile operations, i donīt think is a desired option for Phlan.
And let us not forget that Melvaunt and Thentia do have a Zhentarim presence, Melvaunt even secretly doing Zhentil Keeps biddings in some matters. If Melvaunt falls, that means the Zhentarim lose their influence and that they will not let slide. If Thentia would supply an army against Melvaunt means economic problems with the Zhentarim applying pressure on it as it does not sport any navy and most of itīs trade is done by ship and a blockade can harm them greatly in that regard. Hillsfar and Mulmaster would not get involved unless personally effected by such a blockade and since Zhentil Keep is not moving troops into Thentia, it means they donīt send ships and troops.
Phlan is endangered by Zhentil Keep, if assuming Melvaunt also falls to the Zhentarim should they oust any army recently conquering it would imply Zhentilar with staging areas from the south, west and east with the Ride barbarians in the north, i really do not see them risking such an endeavour as supporting an army set to conquer Melvaunt.
So yes, i am curious how the group wants to pull it off. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 00:20:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Mapolq, you forget that Zhentil Keep does have a navy and they can ship troops in the night towards the shores near Melvaunt in the aftermath as news reaches Zhentil Keep that Melvaunt has fallen and it is easier now for them to try and seize it with reduce defenses and they can be styled as liberators from foreign aggression.
That's not the issue, Zhentil Keep can march an army to Melvaunt alright. Only Phlan (and two hundred kilometres or so of relatively hospitable countryside) is in the way, and that tiny city has little power to do anything about it alone (for an extended campaign Phlan could be a thorn in ZK's side, but initially it'd just have to let the army pass). But the guy who's conquering Melvaunt is a member of a prominent Melvauntian family, so for most anyone's purposes it's an internal conflict. There's no chance Zhentil Keep can pass off as liberators unless the PCs are extremely crass about it.
Take the example of Yûlash, which is in the Zhents' backyard. In 1355 it was a nominally free city but essentially a ZK satellite. It broke into civil war, and ZK moved troops into it, supported by some internal factions. Hillsfar also moved troops into it to aid the rebels, leading to a standstill that destroyed the city and cost both ZK and Hillsfar dearly. The Zhents would have to be insane to try and pull the same thing off in Melvaunt. Then again, Cyricists... the guy actually mustered an army against his own city in 1368, so who knows...
PS. Agreed with your analysis of the chances for an assault from outside the Moonsea, though. Basically, very, very small chances. I'd say there's no single nation in Faerûn that could do it without going through the other cities somehow. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 02 Nov 2013 00:40:39 |
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Ilmarinnen
Acolyte
Ukraine
29 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 21:05:46
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That's a wonderful idea! A paladin taking power in a chaotic city and installing a reign of terror...
Zurich of Zwingli and Geneva of calvin will be fine examples for you.
Make taking power relatively easy for him (existing parties may believe him to be their pawn against their existing opponents and support him).
Then sink him in a sea of routine and let him make an army of enemies.
Whom will he support in a conflict between Zhentil Keep and Mulmaster (Thayan area of influence)?
In conflicts like between woodcutters and druids?
What will be his policy in taxes?
In laws on luxury?
On usury, adultry, alcohol, drugs, prostitution, porn, slave trading?
How will he deal with the breakers of his laws?
With preachers of unwanted gods?
Do not use external pressure (like Zhents) until he has not created enough internal foes. Otherwise it will just consolidate Melvaunt.
You should also read about Cola di Rienzi (there is an opera of Wagner about him - if is not played in your land, find it in internet). Savonarola will be a fine example too :) |
Edited by - Ilmarinnen on 07 Nov 2013 21:39:06 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 21:23:06
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| This has nothing to do with this thread (sorry), but I have to ask - Ilmarinnen: how are things going with that wife of yours? :P |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1155 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2013 : 19:01:46
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Melvaunt has a contract with Hillsfar to land mercenaries by boat incredibly quickly at the first sign of trouble from the zhents.
Of course the only legal ways to gain temporal power in Melvaunt are to buy a new Council seat for 2,000,000gp; or to replace a dead or discredited existing Lord Councillor. Good ways to discredit someone are exposing them as allies of ZK or as a worshiper of Auril (both of which are huge taboos in the city) but even then only if your pally can prove that he's a merchant and front 100,000gp.
If he goes for the top seat though, there WILL be street wars between the merchant nobility.
Melvaunt is one of my little pet projects. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
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Edited by - hashimashadoo on 08 Nov 2013 19:02:48 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4253 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2013 : 00:18:43
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| Where is the information about Hillsfar mercenaries from? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2013 : 04:29:49
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| Yeah - I don't think I've read that before, though it seems a shrewd move. Melvaunt cant let Zhentil Keep eliminate Hillsfar as a threat or they'll be alone in opposition to their Western neighbor. Further, should Zhentil Keep wipe out Hillsfar's army, then there would be nothing stopping Melvaunt from making Hillsfar a puppet by controlling its military. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1155 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2013 : 17:06:10
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I can't check to be sure right now but I'm fairly certain the info came from one of Ed's articles in Polyhedron.
Edit: Polyhedron #78 p25 |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 09 Nov 2013 17:48:39 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2013 : 04:09:19
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| Yep its in there. |
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The Madmage
Acolyte
26 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2013 : 22:35:13
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As pointed out previously, amassing an army capable enough to conquer a city is not something someone can do discreetly. Melvaunt scouts could spot the nascent army and declare them bandits or believe them to be an invading force and strike them before he has a chance to do anything. Should he build his army elsewhere with the consent of locals, there's a great risk that he'll be seen as a puppet to foreign interests and have to deal with constant rebellions or those disaffected with his rule. Further, said foreign interests would certainly come a knockin' almost immediately asking that the paladin return the favours. And that doesn't even involve the logistical problems he might encounter by marching or sailing his army through other territories.
It's important to determine what are the motivations of those signing up for his army. If they're mercenaries, the army could quickly dissolve or be reduced in number if he can't continue paying or providing them spoils of war. Heck, one of his army lieutenants could easily be bought off by the local nobility and betray him at a pivotal moment. Not all mercenaries want to settle down and become a watch force like the Red Plumes of Hillsfar.
If they are religious crusaders, he needs to spin this so it has the support of his Church. Not all priests are keen to see their flock go and die on foreign soil. It's likely the army will also dissolve once the stated goal of "freeing Melvaunt from the influence of malign gods" and want to return home. |
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Athelan
Acolyte
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2014 : 23:18:30
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| Great responses all around. This is exactly what I wanted, and I think I'll lean more towards the attack from within concept, but it's not entirely up to me on that. :) The geopolitics that would be at work in the Moonsea is really what I need to have a tight grasp on, since as things develop, the other cities will likely respond in some form or fashion. Sorry it's been so late in replying. Holidays has not allowed my group to join together at a table in a couple months. That's about to change, though. :D |
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Second Moonsea War
