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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Dec 2013 : 21:30:32
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Hmmm, how valuable would a girdle of femininity/masculinity be in a Lolth dominated drow society?
If a female priestess were turned into a male, would Lolth turn from them?
If a male were turned into a female, would Lolth accept them as clergy? Would the new female be considered sacrilege (even if it was an accidental curse)?
If a male drow were turned into a female (or vice-versa) would their favored class change (betting no)?
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2013 : 21:50:30
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| Whatever happens, a true female cleric of Lolth will remove the curse and the belt (with telekinesis or somesuch) at the worst possible time. Of this we can be sure. |
Edited by - Demzer on 30 Dec 2013 21:50:53 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2013 : 22:12:15
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The girdle is a cursed item, which can be removed with remove curse.
Now the person effected generally will not want the curse removed, however that does not prevent the cure from being imposed.
As to Drow and Lolth, Lolth is the one that might provide a Cleric with a gender change she can be a bit evil *wink*
The older Editions Lolth did have male Priests so there should be no good reason that if some one else or item changed the gender there is no good reason that Lolth would reject the male Priest. Of course she clearly also might decide to have the curse removed at her own timing.
A male turned female does not change classes the individual has, a male Wizard turned into a female would become a female Wizard.
As gender change is temporary the favored class would not change.
At least this is how I would treat the matter. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2013 : 23:08:27
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Male priests and female wizards might find it very difficult to survive and advance in drow society.
I might be mistaken, but I‘m under the impression that most of our information about drow is based on the way things are in Menzoberranzan - although a very large, heavily populated, and powerful city, Menzo is only one of many such drow cities. If this is true, then drow may recognize gender roles outside of their local norm. They may not accept it, but they would be wary of powerful individuals (even wimpy individuals who carry house/clan/political/religious power). After all, drow will even tolerate lowly humans when necessary, so why not tolerate male priestesses? |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2013 : 13:48:46
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| Hmmm, maybe I've got my kink on.... but I started thinking more. Lesbians in drow society. One puts on the girdle, impregnates the other, so that they can have a child together. Sacrilege or extreme representation of chaos? For an even weirder question for which I'm betting there's no adequate answer: Then in return, the other woman after giving birth returns the favor. The children born are obviously of "the same parents", but if they were "genetically" compared would they be seen as siblings or more like cousins (assuming someone from our world could genetically compare the two). I'm pretty certain if magically compared, magic would say they were siblings, just do to its ability to "auto-correct" in situations like this. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2013 : 14:14:48
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*chuckles* Well having same parents would make the children siblings. As for genetics they would not be identical even gender might be different as well as hair color is possible. Both the children would look like Drow though. Off hand I would guess most Drow children would look similar or related to each other after all there does not appear much difference in appearance of a Drow.
As far as it goes a couple with two belts could use them to trade genders. Female giving birth for 100 years, then change mate female and self male so other gives birth for 100 years.
Another option that might be considered, a House wants to increase its numbers. there fore transforms most males to females so that the House will have more births. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2013 : 14:33:21
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| Given Lolth's obvious favoritism towards females, I'm not sure she'd be cool with males becoming female... Though I can see being turned male as a punishment for a female drow. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2013 : 15:02:25
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| Ouch, that just gave me a horrid idea with prisoners of drow. If a male drow prison warden were to get his hands on a girdle, there might be a lot of half-drow born in captivity from captured human adventurers. Drow slavers and runners of whorehouses might make additional money as well with this little trick. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2013 : 17:47:17
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Wooly: Lolth not only game in play as far as Drow are concerned. Even though if Lolth prefers females she certainly punishes those that displease her. All those female Driders used to be Priestesses of Lolth. What might be even a worst punishment then becoming a Drider? Maybe being turned into a male?
Sleyvas: There certainly can be other options then the girdle for prisoners. Polymorth certainly could be used. 3.5 appears to indicate target must be willing, however there are ways to get a captive to beg for the spell. 2nd Edition has the spell polymorph other that if save not made turns person into what caster desires. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2013 : 18:04:08
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yeah, but the girdle is usable by non-casters on individuals, and in theory its reusable. That being said, I just realized they never recreated it for 3.5 and instead went with it being a "random" drawback, and its stated drawback items are only when in the possession of the person. So, I'm guessing in 3.5 they'd have to continue to wear the cursed girdle/necklace/ring, whatever in order to stay female (definite change compared to previous editions).
That being said, I'm looking at the other magical drawbacks listed, and another is "character's race or kind changes". It would be interesting if a drow (or daemonfey) house were able to generate such cursed items (maybe they find something that gives them the ability to "duplicate" magic items), and thus they could pick up your average goblin and turn them into elves or drow for the purposes of replenishing their race. Lolth may not like it, but I'm betting the followers of Kiaransalee & Vhaeraun would find using cursed items to procreate their race as perfectly acceptable. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2013 : 22:31:32
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| An excellent way to punish drow females ... convert into drow males, then impose the test of Lolth and force them to become driders. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2014 : 02:37:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Wooly: Lolth not only game in play as far as Drow are concerned. Even though if Lolth prefers females she certainly punishes those that displease her. All those female Driders used to be Priestesses of Lolth. What might be even a worst punishment then becoming a Drider? Maybe being turned into a male?
I didn't say she was -- but since the original post referred specifically to her, so did I.
If you want to mention other deities, though... What better way for Vhaeraun to infiltrate Lolth's priesthood, than by turning some of his male priests into female drow and having them work their way up in Lolth's clergy? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2014 : 10:07:09
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| I wonder if certain drow males might not view the girdle as cursed, but rather as a blessed item they can use to elevate themselves and attain more power. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2014 : 11:54:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I wonder if certain drow males might not view the girdle as cursed, but rather as a blessed item they can use to elevate themselves and attain more power.
Well Drow needs a House, just becoming female will not grant higher status. The House would need to know and support the gender changed in order for the character to become elevated within the House.
Though clearly such an item clearly could be used to spy, maybe if one clever enough replace a female by taking her identity. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 00:30:17
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On the other hand, you could use the 2e version of the girdle, which is permanent and almost impossible to reverse.
The problem with a male becoming female and then becoming a priestess is two-fold: first, it's not happening in a vacuum. Other houses would know the roster of priestesses in that house, and know that something changed. But more importantly, Lloth would know. It's her opinion that would be most important, and I just can't see her accepting someone like that.
That said, it would certainly be useful for punishment, in the typically sadistic drow way, and possibly also for espionage. Finally, it would be really good for drow trying to hide/escape after the hunt is out for them. If the choice is changing gender or dying horribly, that change starts looking really good. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 01:00:00
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| Well, my initial thoughts for females wasn't "punishment", it was more of a "how could someone assault a female without it looking like an attack". If one house put a girdle on the matron mother of another house kind of thing. Granted, the actual doing so wouldn't be easy, but it might be a lot easier than beating them in a fight. In fact, technically, you could probably put it on them telekinetically with the item invisible and with spells to prevent seeing through the invisibility spell. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 06:16:57
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Great topic!
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Well, my initial thoughts for females wasn't "punishment", it was more of a "how could someone assault a female without it looking like an attack". If one house put a girdle on the matron mother of another house kind of thing. Granted, the actual doing so wouldn't be easy, but it might be a lot easier than beating them in a fight. In fact, technically, you could probably put it on them telekinetically with the item invisible and with spells to prevent seeing through the invisibility spell.
Suddenly said matron mother loses the Favour of Lolth and, perhaps, Lolth decides to make the curse absolutely permanent because she sees this as proof that the matron mother simply didn't have what it takes.
Now this male ex-matron mother becomes an ideal target for recruitment by the followers of Ghaunadaur....
Damn, I wish we had an author or two who could write a new series focussing on the drow and include some of the ideas from this thread! |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 11:10:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
The problem with a male becoming female and then becoming a priestess is two-fold: first, it's not happening in a vacuum. Other houses would know the roster of priestesses in that house, and know that something changed. But more importantly, Lloth would know. It's her opinion that would be most important, and I just can't see her accepting someone like that.
If Vhaeraun can suborn a priestess of Lolth without her knowing, then he can mask a priest becoming female and entering Lolth's service as an acolyte. |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2014 : 08:24:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
An excellent way to punish drow females ... convert into drow males, then impose the test of Lolth and force them to become driders.
Heh :D
As for males putting it on to elevate themselves, good point. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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MisterX
Learned Scribe
Germany
118 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2014 : 21:46:58
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Little known fact: Vheraun preaches gender-equality, not superiority of males over females. So he has (few, granted…) female priests who could easily infiltrate the ranks of Lolth's clergy.
I'm not saying the idea of using a girdle is stupid (it's not, and I like it very much; in fact my thoughts revolve around using one within my drow-campaign…), but it's not necessarily needed… ;)
As to the questions of the first post:
quote:
If a female priestess were turned into a male, would Lolth turn from them?
In my opinion? Most definetly. There might be exceptions, though, depending on the circumstances (thinking of a test, here…).
quote:
If a male were turned into a female, would Lolth accept them as clergy?
Might even be. But in the long run, this would be a way for her to punish a male by raising him up above his status and then letting him fall…
quote:
Would the new female be considered sacrilege (even if it was an accidental curse)?
Yes. Might be not the case if the gender-change was initiated by Lolth herself, but even then… yes. I'm pretty sure. ;)
quote:
If a male drow were turned into a female (or vice-versa) would their favored class change (betting no)?
I'd rule: no. BUT: If the change persists for longer then years (decades, for drow), I'd let the player decide if he wants to change the favoured class. As I understand the concept, the favoured class is nothing "innate" but an expression of the race's culture – if you stick to "mainstream", it's easier for you to improve your skills – since you have more training partners, teachers and so on… So a male recently turned female will still be more accostumed to the habits of wizardry while a female recently turned male will have problems to blend in this society. Even more if their gender change is public knowledge. But as time moves on and they learn, they might also assimilate to the stereotypes their culture created for the "other" gender. If this happens to a player's character and he gets on with the curse for a long time with exceptionally good roleplay, I might even rule that he/she could treat both classes as favoured class (since he/she had to bear the disadvantages for a long time this shouldn't be game-breaking). |
I've lost track of recent realmslore, since my campaigns are still in the 1370ies. :-)
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When talking about rules (and related stuff) I always refer to 3.5e unless explicitly noted. |
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girdle of femininity/masculinity & Drow
