| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6445 Posts |
|
|
The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Dec 2013 : 14:14:17
|
If you read FR9 Bloodstone Lands, it provides a pretty good road map to how Gareth becomes king. I assume that those projected events are, for the most part, the 'official' manner in which he gains the throne. To my mind, the center point to his success is the child Donlevy the Young (baron of Polten). I make the assumption that, at some point, Donlevy discovers the truth of Zorth's loyalties...most likely after finding evidence of his loyalties and confronting him, at which time Zorth will attempt to kill him but will instead be slain by Gareth's agent in the castle (whom I see as a youngish female rogue acting as Donlevy's chambermaid). She will then reveal herself and offer to continue to help him, surrender and be punished as a spy without resistance to his authority or to depart his lands if that is his choice. Donlevy will hear her out, possibly confine her while he thinks things through, interrogate (not torture) her further and come to understand the situation better as other events play out around the kingdom. She will become a staunch ally and advisor (and likely a lover) to Donlevy. Eventually, he will support Gareth for the throne and, in the long run, marry into the royal family (perhaps Gareth's first child is a girl and heir to the throne).
I do a see a civil war erupting, but not full scale fighting. The city of Praka will likely open the doors to Gareth's forces and allow him to remove the baroness without a fight. The Champion's of Bloodstone will only fight her and a few loyalists as she attempts to flee. Perhaps she will make it to Heliogabalus (in Morav). Around the same time, full proof of the deceit in Carmathan should come out and cause that province to throw in with Gareth whom they will eventually come to love and support as much as the old dynasty. Also, in the long run, they could come full circle in their support for him if the idea above is used. Donlevy actually has a claim to the throne and, by marrying the king's daughter, that claim is maintained in that bloodline. It becomes a double win twenty years down the road.
Back to Morav though. Political pressure from Impiltur and, more importantly, trade being stopped and/or re-routed around Heliogabalus should cause the merchants to oust Dimian Ree themselves. My only problem with this, however, is that it seems a bit ham-fisted for Gareth and friends. I don't see them wanting anyone in the city to suffer as supplies are withheld from the people within. Instead, I see them allowing the goods to continue to flow into the city (after checking them for contraband, spies attempting to enter the city, and taking what few supplies his armies may need) and secretly making contact with the most prominent merchants in the city. He offers them all the proof they need to decide against the baron and they let him in freely. A few skirmishes may be fought once inside, but remember Morav did not contribute many to the war due to the city's indifference in the war...I don't see this changing and, if it has/does, it would most likely be in Gareth's favor as against.
In the end, I see Dimian and Sylvia fleeing to the assassins. Sylvia is level 14 arcane caster and could teleport them there (assuming she knows where 'there' is). Or, at the very least, disguise/hide themselves as they flee. If I were running this as a campaign, I would have Sylvia abandon Dimian (fleeing through her magic) and have him slain by a servant who had the misfortune of being abused by him (who would, of course, receive a full pardon for the crime...it would be a woman he habitually forced himself on in my game).
If you have any Dragonlance maps, I would use the Tower of the High Clerist for the southern pass (into Bloodstone) and Thorbardin for the northern pass. The dragons gathering there can eventually be dealt with in a manner similar to that campaign world, with a dragon orb used to summon them down to the keep for easy killing. Of course, dragons were weaker in that edition so most of them should not be very old and those that are of an age should be handled by the Champions of Bloodstone.
Both the Cult of Orcus and the Assassin's Guild should remain a thorn in the kingdom's side for a time. Eventually, the king's druidic wife should discover the location of the assassin's through a network of druids who communicate with animals and they should be dealt with. I think both Banak and Knellict should escape and live on as liches dedicated to the downfall of Gareth's line. I once had the idea of Orcus, in his anger at their failure, slaying them and melding their spirits into a single entity and a new, unique form of undead. You now get an extremely powerful creature with the epic-level abilities of a priest and a wizard with a slew of necromantic powers as well (perhaps with the ability to create unique forms of undead on the night of the dark moon...your 'new' villain can use its powers to raise the fallen Grandfather of Assassin's to continue his work).
Don'f forget, in addition to the Cult, the Assassins, and Tiamat and her dragons, you still have the giants, goblinoids, and monsters of Vaasa to contend with in the future. I doubt Vaasa could ever be truly tamed, but assisting the people of Vaasa should be one of Gareth's key goals. He could send envoys to Sossal with the goal of opening up some kind of trade between them as well. They could work in tandem with the dwarves of Bloodstone to carve out a pass in the glacier (or below it) to assist in this endeavor.
Dunno if this helps but that's a general idea of how I think things should play out. I have other notions (such as Donlevy choosing to join the Twilight Riders for a time) in mind as well. These notions extend to the 'next generation' as they drive deep into Vaasa in the name of the king to tame that land through mighty deeds the likes of which make even the old Champion's proud. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
 |
|
|
The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2013 : 14:30:48
|
| Oh wow, I forgot about the thieve's guild in Heliogabalus (Tightpurse). Likely Sylvia and/or Dimian Ree will flee to them first before fleeing to the assassins. I'm sure Dimian has a secret access to their headquarters so destroying them, IMHO, is a simple matter of discovering this passage and following it. If you don't want them dealt with right away, have the passage lead to the sewers and into a passage with multiple exit points and some form of magic (or anti-magic) active that foils Find the Path and similar spells. The guild gets to exist until you're ready to put it down or you can allow it to be defeated, only to rear its head again later as it is discovered that the headquarters was a fake and all of the prominent leaders escape in the fighting (or are raised as per the idea stated in my previous post). If/when you do put the guild down, the Champions can discover connections to various unscrupulous merchant houses that can then be dealt with...all with the effect of further solidifying the loyalty of the more honest merchants in the city who make financial gains from the markets that open up to them while not having to pay protection money to the guild (although I would still have others try to rebuild the guild). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2013 : 16:53:55
|
Well, some ideas that I used are listed below (I worked mostly in Ostel, Soravia, and Polten). Some are new.
Baroness Sylvia of Ostel invites a Thayan Enclave into her barony with the loss of Zhengyi's support. She uses the support of this enclave to better arm her military, and she sells captured prisoners to the Thayans to use as slaves (primarily, these slaves were captured orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, etc... from Soravia). This proves profitable, and she rewards her nobles for their aid in capturing "rebels from surrounding baronies". These nobles in turn begin establishing small private armies and building small fortresses along the borders of Ostel. The Twilight Riders, at the insistence of the former red wizard-turned-paladin Myrddin Viligoth, begin actively working against the baroness. Eventually the baroness and her more fervent supporters are overthrown by the Twilight Riders working through intermediary adventurers who were adversely impacted by these policies. The new baron however finds himself unable to legally oust the Thayan enclave, and worries of Thay using an assault on the enclave as an excuse for war make Gareth Dragonsbane back down from destroying the enclave. The enclave begins bringing in bountiful harvests to trade to the people's of Ostel, in addition to magical aid. The nobles of Ostel begin raiding the barony of Soravia and capturing many orcs & goblins to continue trading to Thay in return for crops, and they put out word that they will give twice the bounty on goblin ears that Gareth Dragonsbane is paying if the goblins are brought to Ostel live. They also put out word that they will pay well for complete monstrous humanoid skeletons (from goblins to giants).
Baron Donlevy the Younger discovers the truth about Advisor Zorth when Zorth attempts to assassinate the young Baron. The Twilight Riders, working through information gathered by members of Spysong, uncover this plot. They replace Donlevy the Younger with an illusion in his bed, all while allowing the young man to watch the assassin via a scrying spell. The assassin is captured and reveals the name of the man who sent him and his own allegiance to the grandfather of assassins. Unfortunately, the other assassins sent to kill Donlevy's closest and most beloved advisors weren't known about, and Donlevy finds himself suddenly lacking proper guidance for a man his age. Baron Donlevy beheads Advisor Zorth and all who worked with him in a bloody inquisition. In appreciation of their service, Donlevy offers every member to a man amongst the Twilight Riders a noble title if they will swear allegiance to protect the barony, at which point "Agarelth" (actually Haelimbrar, one of Impiltur's Lords of Imphras II) feels he must reveal his true identity both to Donlevy and his fellow Twilight Riders. Unfortunately, the young Donlevy does not take well to this news of further imposters in his presence. He begins to develop a suspicious nature, which colors his reign and relationship with surrounding territories (except for Impiltur whom he actually trusts due to Haelimbrar's inability to hide his own allegiance). When the "Rotting Man" appears in the Rawlinswood in 1362 DR, a small contingent of the elves, satyrs, and Volodnoi of the Rawlinswood flee to Polten seeking aid. Donlevy, having grown up in Tellerth on stories of the dangers of the fey wood turns his back on these refugees, telling their envoys that his people are too hurt from the war to provide them aid.
The Cult of the Dragon begins gathering north of Vaasa, threatening an invasion of Damara.
Baron Dimian Ree, seeing the tide turning against him as being a ruler over all of Damara, decides to play one of the few cards left to him. Using his ties to Tightpurse, via his brother, Tarkos Ree, Dimian Ree gains an audience with the grandfather of assassins. Dimian then arranges with the grandfather of assassins to use an "expendable" resource for a hit on Baroness Christine of Bloodstone and her children (Gareth's children). Dimian then comes to the aid of Baroness Christine by having his court mage transport him into Gareth Dragonsbane's court, whereupon Ree began to plea to Gareth to "please hurry, we must put our differences aside, as my resources have alerted me to a grave threat to the realm. My cousin, Baroness Christine, and your children are being targeted by foul assassins". The people of Bloodstone arrive just in time to stop the assassins. Dimian Ree uses this to parlay his position as Baron of Morov into a permanent position (though he is told he must move his capital back to Morovar and not the traditional capital of Heliogabolus). As a result, the thieve's guild, Tightpurse, also gains some "respectability" to a degree, and its members begin to flourish outside of the barony of Morovar.
Gareth's inquiries to the monastery of the yellow rose prove that Theodorus (who was going by the name Helmont the 15th, Duke of Carmathan) is not in fact of the house of Devlin. Gareth send envoys to protect the monks and midwife who served house Devlin, as they gather a secret meeting of the lords of Carmathan. Unfortunately, Helmont the 15th's misinformation network learns of this meeting, and they spread word that Gareth is secretly entreating to the Lords of Carmathan to overthrow their Duke. The Ducal Guard is sent to break up this group of "conspirators" and word is "leaked" to the commoners. It is only through the timely intervention of Hobart Bracegirdle and the rest of the kneebreakers (a group of halfling's riding pigs) that these two factions did not come to blows (more through surprise at their intervention) and instead listened to one another. Helmont the 15th was ousted by his own Ducal Guard within the tenday. When asked how they had found out about the meeting, Hobart Bracegirdle proudly announced that Dimian Ree had his court mage privately inform the Kneebreakers of the miscommunication, knowing that the "heroic kneebreakers" were active in the area and "could be trusted to save the day". Dimian then sent envoys to Carmathan to set about uncovering who had provided the "false information" to the populace, and thereby uncovering the misinformation network within Carmathan. These individuals were offered the option of joining the thieve's guild, Tightpurse, or be killed. Most accepted. A few dozen individuals were made scapegoats for the larger network and had their tongues removed as a sign of their untrustworthiness. Most of these individuals were then murdered by "spontaneous mobs" who were "tired of being manipulated by liars and thieves". While Gareth Dragonsbane was given credit by the populace for revealing their Duke's deceit, Dimian Ree was also heralded as the man who had ferreted out the root of their problems.
|
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2013 : 17:08:24
|
| The one thing I want to swear to is that in some novel, Dimian Ree is still shown as alive. I'm not sure if it was the rage of dragons series or the Salvatore series with Entreri. I could be wrong... anyone by chance recall this? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2013 : 18:02:54
|
Yes, I was right. Dimian Ree is still around. Road of the Patriarch, chapter 12, in the pages around 162-164 of the hardback. He's labeled the baron of Heliogabalus (noting, its not called Helgabal as 3e renamed it, but rather the right name). Its specified that Emelyn the Gray wanted to kill him after the war, but Gareth Dragonsbane forestalled it.
BTW, if you want to know what's happened, I really recommend reading Road of the Patriarch. Its got a lot in there. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2013 : 19:12:01
|
Arcanamach, you make a good point with who people might marry. For instance, who might Dimian Ree marry (since he is of the bloodline of the old Damaran Kings)? Who might his brother Tarkos Ree marry (for the same reasons)? Gareth's children would be probably about 16 years younger than Donlevy, so I don't NECESSARILY see the marriage happening of Donlevy to Gareth's children (it could mind you). However, I could definitely see Donlevy's children being promised to Gareth's children.
We know that Olwen Forest-Friend became the lord over Soravia (from Road of the Patriarch), which while huge is sparsely populated. I'm not sure if we found out who came to rule the Barony of Ostel, the Duchy of Carmathan (both of whom presumably have new rulers), and the Duchy of Brandiar after all the fallout. There was a fighter named Dormythyrr that MIGHT have been given at least a title in Brandiar.... maybe even something better.
Oh, and another power in the area is the Kiaransalee worshipping sect (see below for more info)
From Demi-human Deities section on Kiaransalee
Deep beneath the Galena Mountains and the cold plains of Vaasa is a great subterranean lake fed by the icy waters of the Great Glacier and inhabited by hundreds of giant water spiders. The Vault of Gnashing Teeth is so-named for the thousands of skulls embedded in the roof whose collective cacophonous chomping echoes throughout the great cavern. At the center of the freshwater sea is a large island, nearly a mile in diameter, dominated by a steep-sided plateau at its center. All that remains of V'elddrinnsshar-once a drow city dedicated to the Spider Queen that encircled the central mesa-are crumbling ruins, stalked by a legion of banshees awakened by Kiaransalee's faithful, and the bones of the city's former inhabitants (drow and slaves of various races).
V'elddrinnsshar fell in the Year of Many Bones (1278 DR) to the ravages of the Ascomoid Plague and was plundered by duergar scavengers a decade later. The city sat unoccupied until the Year of the Wandering Maiden (1337 DR), when it was explored by Reaper of Souls Larynda Telenna and a small band of acolytes. At their goddess's direction, the priests began construction of a brooding temple of black marble atop the central plateau, a massive stalagmite whose tip had been sheered off centuries before by the followers of Lolth for a similar purpose. When the Acropolis of Thanatos was completed a decade later, Larynda had expanded the ranks of Kiaransalee's faithful a
thousandfold, and the skulls of V'elddrinnsshar's dead had been enchanted and mounted in the cavern's roof to form an unholy choir. Since the temple's completion, the priests of Kiaransalee have relentlessly combated the Cult of the Goat's Head, active in the lands of Vaasa above. In the decade since the defeat of the Witch-King and the destruction of Castle Perilous, Kiaransalee's priests have nearly exterminated the remaining clergy of Orcus in the Bloodstone Lands-many of whom took refuge in the Black Holes of Sunderland and thus were readily accessible to attacks from below-and destroyed most of the goblinkin tribes who venerated the Prince of the Undead while
the Witch-King reigned in the Lands of Light. Although they do not realize it, King Gareth Dragonsbane and the people of Damara owe a great deal of their success against the forces of the Witch-King to their subterranean neighbors.
Affiliated Orders: The Legion of Vengeful Banshees is an order of Kiaransaleen crusaders dedicated to the destruction of Tenebrous's undead tanar'ri servants, known as visages. While Banshee Knights are found on many worlds, in the Realms all are based in the Acropolis of Thanatos deep beneath the Galenas. From their chapter house within the temple grounds, the members of the order mount long-ranging hunts on the surface and in the Underdark for Tenebrous's minions. The Banshee Knights have apparently developed some sort or spell or magical item that allows them to detect and defend against the use of a visage's lucidity control power. Crusaders of the order are fanatically dedicated to their goddess and the destruction of all visages; they stop at nothing to see one destroyed, regardless of the collateral damage. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2013 : 19:25:47
|
Finally, just because I spent the time to work up the NPC for 3rd edition. I added paladin levels to Myrddin Viligoth. His history all works except that it mentions that the baron of Morov was overthrown (later stories showed it didn't happen).
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7576
The bloodstone lands also mentions that both Myrddin Viligoth and Emelyn the Gray discussed the need of a wizard's school in Damara. We know that Emelyn retired to live amongst the centaurs of the Warrenwood, so he didn't make a school. However, I wouldn't be surprised it Myrrdin didn't start at least a small school in Polten.
Also, in my home campaign, a mage-priest of Azuth started a school of magic/ temple of Azuth in Ostel after Sylvia's ousting. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6445 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2013 : 19:30:09
|
Well I would normally never violate canon but when it comes to novels, especially recent novels I have to disagree with most of their information.
A sourcebook is written to detail an area and provide information necessary to DM in such a place. A novel is written to showcase the author's characters and his ideas and tell his story and everything else can be damned, even worse the novels are to some extent dictated by WOTC agenda (which was often RSE, RSE, RSE) and so they are far lower in value to me than a sourcebook.
The 3rd edition campaign guide listed Helio - whatsit as the capital and Gareth Dragonsbane as the king. One would therefore assume that Dimian Ree is no longer in charge of the capital and so Gareth Dragonbane rules Helio- whatsit and the barony it resides in. It would be a bad move to have a capital city that generated most of the money of the kingdom and you awarded that title to someone else, even worse someone that you couldn't trust with ties to the local thieves guild who had a legitimate claim to the throne. That is just stupid for any ruler to allow.
It is possible that Gareth Dragonsbane forced Dimian Ree to relocate Morovs capital back to Morovar and made Helio - whatsit independent again but Dimian Ree would still be executed.
Treason is a crime punishable by death in all countries in FR (that I know of) and Dimian Ree is definitely guilty of treason by supporting the witch king. I would imagine any baron/duke installed by the witch king would be suspected of treason and thoroughly investigated. Even a paladin could not argue for keeping alive a dangerous criminal that murdered many of his own citizens and endangering the entire country for his personal gain. The laws require his death and his death is the just course of action.
But anyway, besides that quibble with novels here was my idea.
I had Dimian Ree of Morov and Sylvia of Ostel marry. They were both reliant on one another and I picture Sylvia as being mercenary enough to marry for political gain. She then had a son and heir and then arranged for Dimian Ree's death.
With Dimian Ree gone that meant the people of Carmathen would no longer object to the claim of Ree's child becoming king and so Helmont 15th could ally himself with Sylvia baroness of Ostel and regent of Morov.
The Duchy of Polten would probably side with Sylvia because of Zorth's influence but they could just as easily side with Dragonsbane.
That creates enough of a schism between the country for a civil war but I never figured out how to resolve it satisfactorily. In the end I had Dimian's brother betray Sylvia after he discovered she arranged for his brothers death but I wasn't particularly happy with that scenario.
So the end result is Helmont is deposed, Sylvia is dead and her son is Duke of Ostel. Gareth Dragonsbane rules Morov and his wife rules the Bloodstone Barony.
I like the idea of Donlevy marrying into the Dragonsbane family, that gives good future development for civil war after the death of Dragonsbane. I also like the Red Wizard enclave idea, anyone know when the Red Wizards started the enclave idea, it would bring much needed finance to Sylvia.
Once Gareth Dragonsbane dies a civil war is almost inevitable, any newly founded dynasty is bound to suffer a dynastic dispute, and that's why I opted for Dimian Ree's death but his son to take over.
If Gareth Dragonsbane has children, the son can be his heir. His daughter could marry Donlevy and give him a legitimate claim and Dimian Ree's son (who I called Feldrin) would also have a claim.
Other than a dynastic dispute and unnamed giants and humanoid tribes though I have no big threat to the kingdom. Most areas have a big threat or secret lying around. But the Bloodstone Lands have nothing but a little hook that Zhengyi might still be alive.
|
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9
Alternate Realms Site |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2013 : 20:22:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well I would normally never violate canon but when it comes to novels, especially recent novels I have to disagree with most of their information.
A sourcebook is written to detail an area and provide information necessary to DM in such a place. A novel is written to showcase the author's characters and his ideas and tell his story and everything else can be damned, even worse the novels are to some extent dictated by WOTC agenda (which was often RSE, RSE, RSE) and so they are far lower in value to me than a sourcebook.
The 3rd edition campaign guide listed Helio - whatsit as the capital and Gareth Dragonsbane as the king. One would therefore assume that Dimian Ree is no longer in charge of the capital and so Gareth Dragonbane rules Helio- whatsit and the barony it resides in. It would be a bad move to have a capital city that generated most of the money of the kingdom and you awarded that title to someone else, even worse someone that you couldn't trust with ties to the local thieves guild who had a legitimate claim to the throne. That is just stupid for any ruler to allow.
It is possible that Gareth Dragonsbane forced Dimian Ree to relocate Morovs capital back to Morovar and made Helio - whatsit independent again but Dimian Ree would still be executed.
Treason is a crime punishable by death in all countries in FR (that I know of) and Dimian Ree is definitely guilty of treason by supporting the witch king. I would imagine any baron/duke installed by the witch king would be suspected of treason and thoroughly investigated. Even a paladin could not argue for keeping alive a dangerous criminal that murdered many of his own citizens and endangering the entire country for his personal gain. The laws require his death and his death is the just course of action.
But anyway, besides that quibble with novels here was my idea.
I had Dimian Ree of Morov and Sylvia of Ostel marry. They were both reliant on one another and I picture Sylvia as being mercenary enough to marry for political gain. She then had a son and heir and then arranged for Dimian Ree's death.
With Dimian Ree gone that meant the people of Carmathen would no longer object to the claim of Ree's child becoming king and so Helmont 15th could ally himself with Sylvia baroness of Ostel and regent of Morov.
The Duchy of Polten would probably side with Sylvia because of Zorth's influence but they could just as easily side with Dragonsbane.
That creates enough of a schism between the country for a civil war but I never figured out how to resolve it satisfactorily. In the end I had Dimian's brother betray Sylvia after he discovered she arranged for his brothers death but I wasn't particularly happy with that scenario.
So the end result is Helmont is deposed, Sylvia is dead and her son is Duke of Ostel. Gareth Dragonsbane rules Morov and his wife rules the Bloodstone Barony.
I like the idea of Donlevy marrying into the Dragonsbane family, that gives good future development for civil war after the death of Dragonsbane. I also like the Red Wizard enclave idea, anyone know when the Red Wizards started the enclave idea, it would bring much needed finance to Sylvia.
Once Gareth Dragonsbane dies a civil war is almost inevitable, any newly founded dynasty is bound to suffer a dynastic dispute, and that's why I opted for Dimian Ree's death but his son to take over.
If Gareth Dragonsbane has children, the son can be his heir. His daughter could marry Donlevy and give him a legitimate claim and Dimian Ree's son (who I called Feldrin) would also have a claim.
Other than a dynastic dispute and unnamed giants and humanoid tribes though I have no big threat to the kingdom. Most areas have a big threat or secret lying around. But the Bloodstone Lands have nothing but a little hook that Zhengyi might still be alive.
Actually, the novel has Gareth specifically telling Dimian Ree that when Gareth is in town, Dimian Ree isn't in charge.
On the idea of treason, remember... Zhengyi didn't claim rulership of these lower baronies/duchies. Essentially, Zhengyi said "I'm stopping here in bloodstone and the southern half of the country should remain Damaran". Exactly how these people came to be in charge of the various baronies may have involved Zhengyi, but it may not have been obvious to the populace. For example, Dimian Reee IS of the royal Damaran bloodline. The guy of the Devlin bloodline that took over Carmathan was of that bloodline (his replacement was a fake, but Zhengyi didn't put him in). Zorth was a "pretend-cousin" which says that SOMEHOW he convinced people he was of royal blood.
The only one that I can say that wouldn't necessarily be accepted as a legitimate heir is Baroness Sylvia of Ostel, who WAS personally appointed by Zhengyi since the entire bloodline of Praka was decimated and she was simply the most personally powerful individual in any kind of leadership role left in the Barony. However, of them all, she was the one schmoozing the other nobles so that they didn't oust her. I definitely see her having to die though.
On the Thayan Enclaves, they started them in 1344 in Procampur, then 1351 in Telflamm. The next official ones we see in GHotR is 1368, but I could see one starting in Ostel, in the late 1350's.
On the threats, you have dragons / Cult of the Dragon / Tiamat worshippers to the north, Drow Followers of Kiaransalee, Talontar Blightlords, Guild of Assassins, Tightpurse, goblinoids of various stripes, giants (specifically the Thunkers gang), Duergar, Thayans if you accept the enclave idea, plus remaining worshippers of Orcus. It should be noted that the demons entrapped beneath Dun-Tharos wouldn't be a direct threat due to the gem tree.... though they could become a threat indirectly. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6445 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2013 : 13:54:37
|
Well I think the only time you could have Dimian Ree in charge is if the king was in town, he is not the kind of man you would trust to be in charge of anything while you aren't watching.
Maybe there is a way to twist this. Courts of olden days often had honorary titles without land attached, some of which could be a punishment (court jester for one), most however carried greater prestige with them.
Perhaps after Gareth Dragonsbane became king he moved the capital of Morov back to Morovar and he was king of Damara with the capital of Heliogabalus. The barony of Heliogabalus then becomes an honorary title with significant negative overtones to it because it is the only barony without any land or holdings attached to it.
Therefore Dimian Ree is a noble without land.
Well that's what I'm sticking with anyways.
Oh and as for older landed nobles marrying much younger children allies, this was quite common in the real world. If your most powerful duke was aged and desired a wife you would probably betroth your youngest daughter to him.
This would make him happy because he has a chance of a claim on your throne and therefore makes him much more supportive of your reign and dynasty. The benefit for you is that there is a significant chance he will die without issue or before the marriage even occurs and therefore will produce no claimants to your throne.
Obviously a local marriage is more desirable for newer dynasties with less established links to the nobility. Foreign marriages are more desirable for secure dynasties seeking to expand territory.
Can anyone tell I have been playing Crusader Kings 2 a lot lately.
A school of wizardry is good, but an interesting spin on it would be good (like that wind school of wizardry in Impiltur devoted to sea going magics). Mayhaps a school focusing on abjuration and banishing magics. Although whatever Myrddin was known for would probably be a good place to start.
Now onto the threats or secrets of Damara. At the moment cults, thieves guilds, spy organisation are all very generic, nothing jumps out and says "I am from Damara". Take for instance Cormyr and the purple dragons or king Azoun and his death, or Cormanthor and Myth Drannor, Waterdeep and Undermountain, or Thay and the Red Wizards, or Impiltur and Soneillon. All these things are synonymous with that region.
All Damara has is a tree gem which is implausible in its execution at best (not even a pantheon of gods has demonstrated enough power to banish an evil from an entire country and keep them out - netheril and the phaerimm for instance, and Bahamut was only a demi/lesser deity at the time). At the most the tree gem would have to be a single use high level banishment spell whose lingering effects are purely psychological rather than a blanket mythal effect that encompasses the entirety of the Bloodstone Lands (unless that actually refers only to the very small Bloodstone Barony in Damara which would be a funny twist).
Unfortunately I cant think of anything that is unique in flavour to Damara other than its only uniqueness is that it has nothing unique about it. |
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9
Alternate Realms Site |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6445 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2013 : 19:30:54
|
A quick mock up of some timeline events for the crowning of King Dragonsbane.
1357 DR Year of the Prince - The Time of Troubles: Zhengyi conquers Damara.
The forces of Vaasa slay king Virdin of Damara. Zhengyi now controls both Vaasa and Damara through his puppets installed as rulers of the duchies and baronies of Damara.
1359 DR Year of the Serpent: Zhengy is slain, Castle Perilous crumbles into ruin and is occupied by an avatar of Tiamat.
1360 DR Year of the Turret: Sylvia and Dimian Ree marry, uniting the baronies of Ostel and Morov. Within a year a son is born named Feldrin Ree.
- An attempt is made on Christine Dragonsbane’s life by Cat One-Eye. The assassination attempt fails but Cat One Eye escapes.
- The Red Wizards of Thay open another enclave in Praka in Ostel. The Red Wizard Enclave also aids Baroness Sylvia by arranging the secret kidnap and enslavement of those that oppose her in Ostel. The coins from the Red Wizards enrich Sylvia's funds
1361 DR Year of Maidens: The Gates of Bloodstone Pass are finished, adventurers begin to venture into Vaasa thanks to Damara's bounty on monstrous humanoids.
- Cat One-Eye makes an attempt on Dimian Ree's life but is foiled by Spysong who are tipped off about the meeting between Cat and Dimian by Baroness Sylvia, instead the Baron of Morov is rendered incapacitated (a condition that is perpetuated by Baroness Sylvia's magic which mysteriously foils clerical attempts to heal him).
- Baroness Sylvia becomes acting Regent of Morov until Feldrin Ree comes of age.
- Helmont 15th Duke of Carmathen formally allies himself with Baroness Sylvia of Ostel and Morov, the people of Carmathen no longer object now that Dimian Ree is dead.
1362 DR Year of the Helm: Duchess Sylvia declares her intention to press the claim of her son Feldrin Ree to be proclaimed King of Damara. Gareth Dragonsbane counters this claim with his own. With the duchies of Morov, Ostel, Carmarthen and Polten on one side and Bloodstone, Arcata, Brandiar, and Soravia on the other, the country of Damara prepares for civil war.
- Donlevy the younger is convinced to side with Baroness Sylvia by Zorth his advisor to keep the old dynasty of Damara alive as his father would have wanted.
1363 DR Year of the Wyvern: The armies of Damara meet at the ford of Goliad and a stalemate ensues, some lives are lost by low level skirmishing, but the people of Damara have no real stomach for another war.
- Tarkos Ree, leader of the Tightpurse thieves guild in Heliogabalus exposes Sylvia’s plots and schemes when his agents discover her using magic to continue Dimian Ree's confusion and illness. Sylvia orchestrated the assassination attempt of Christine Dragonsbane using her new husband’s connections to the citadel of assassins. She then arranged a second assassination on Dimian Ree and deliberately informed Spysong of the meeting to throw them off her trail. Then she could press her son’s claims on the kingdom of Damara with the richest duchies behind her.
- Gareth Dragonsbane quickly declares Sylvia a traitor and all the duchies of Damara (except Ostel and Morov) declare Gareth Dragonsbane king.
-The armies of Damara besiege Heliogabalus palace; they are unopposed by the merchants and their mercenaries. Sylvia is captured and imprisoned. The child baron Feldrin Ree remains baron of Morov.
-King Dragonsbane is crowned in Heliogabalus which he names as capital of Damara. He quickly cracks down on the Tightpurse thieves guild in Damara because of it’s links to the citadel of assassins.
-The Barony of Morov's capital is moved back to Morovar with Feldrin Ree in charge and a regent loyal to the crown appointed to him. Dimian Ree recovers from his illness and is appointed the newly created title Baron of Heliogabalus which currently has no lands while King Gareth Dragonsbane has his capital at Heliogabalus. Dimian Ree is not so politely informed he will only be in charge in the King's absence which is a situation that should only occur on the King's death and so a new King would be appointed.
-King Dragonsbane is unable to undo the legal contract between the Barony of Ostel and the Red Wizards of Thay so the enclave remains so long as it breaks no laws. The enclave is careful not to pursue its secret slaving activities for many years.
1365 DR Year of the Sword: Duke Helmont the 15th of Carmathen is exposed as an imposter by the monks of the yellow rose. He is quickly ousted by his own subjects and imprisoned before paladins from Heliogabalus sent by King Dragonsbane arrive.
|
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9
Alternate Realms Site |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2014 : 14:13:01
|
| On the wizard school idea, the 2e book (think it was called wizards and priests of the realms) had Damara producing mages who had the ability to heal (or as they called it white necromancy). Ironically, the build I did for Myrddin Viligoth mentioned above has him taking the arcane disciple (healing domain). So, he's learned how to cast cure spells in service to Ilmater as arcane magic. So, perhaps he opens the "School of White Necromancy", open to followers of Ilmater (or possibly other good gods, such as the triad). The reason I specify a religion is that Myrddin came from being a red wizard and became a firmly religious follower of Ilmater.... so I see him as being a person who sees a problem with having a school that doesn't have a "higher calling" or "guiding ethos".... something you'll rarely find in a wizard's school. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6445 Posts |
|
|
The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2014 : 15:10:15
|
| I'll have to look up the original timeline but I know Zhengyi controlled Vaasa/Damara for 10 years before Gareth and Co. came onto the scene. The H-series of modules should have taken place over the course of 1.5-2 years (1357-59ish). Your mock up looks good otherwise. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
|
|
|
The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2014 : 15:37:00
|
| I see nothing wrong with the Rainbow Towers as a name. If you don't care for it then perhaps for one of the following names...Towers Ascendant, Hopestone Tower, the Azurespire (blue seems an appropriate color for good magic), Goldenspires, Sevenstars (a nod to Mystra), or the Towers Tranquil. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6445 Posts |
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2014 : 18:53:23
|
Further on the wizard school idea. Its noted in Bloodstone Lands that Emelyn the Gray wanted to build a school in the warrenwood (well rebuild). So perhaps Myrrdin and Emelyn (and Emelyn's apprentice Gabrielle) all help build a school. I could definitely see the school teaching the arts of the eldritch knight and spellsword, being a school for warrior mages. Since he is a war weaver, definitely teaching the art of war weaving (where you are a mage who buffs his personal squad) for those mages who see themselves fulfilling more of a support role. If it allowed for followers of Torm, they could also learn the arcane disciple (healing domain), and followers of Tyr could do arcane disciple (war domain). The war domain would be beneficial to mages who wear armor and get into battle, it offers spiritual hammer (good if you have an opponent whom your physical sword can't really touch, such as an incorporeal foe), magic vestment to improve your armor and shield, divine power to improve your base attack/str/hit points <and as a war weaver, you imbue this to your whole squad... so you could really boost a squad of say mages, priests or rogues with a low BAB.... even moreso if you had some way to persist it>, flame strike for when you NEED divine damage, and blade barrier as a just nice have to drop around you when enemies get close.
What exactly Emelyn the Gray and/or Gabrielle (his apprentice) bring to the school, I can't say (other than being great mages). Emelyn's power is already great being like 21st lvl during 2nd edition, but he's pretty much just shown as the standard "Gandalf" type mage from what I see in bloodstone lands (there may be more in the novels).
|
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2014 : 18:55:05
|
Hmm, let me note first off that I've been reading back through road of the patriarch further. That book not only makes Dimian Ree still baron of Morov, but it also names Baroness Sylvia as still around (I read the books six years ago, and this fact hadn't sunk in). I'm looking at Road of the Patriarch, chapter 2, pages 31 & 32 in the hardback version. I recommend looking at this piece. I know you're interested in developing your own version, but I like doing this kind of thing where I see what canon things are out there and then developing the links further. Its kind of an undecided kind of development, where you have to go in semi-blind and see what unexpected outcome you get at the end. I'll post more on that later.
BTW, I so wish I could copy and paste from google books. Wow that is an amazing resource. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2014 : 19:14:04
|
I was thinking about the name of the tower as - 'Rainbow Towers' sounds more like a hotel in San Francisco...
I was think 'white towers', for white magic, but thats boring. I used a thesaurus for 'white', and both alabaster (towers) and 'ivory tower' have been used before.
'Argent' is the name for white in heraldry, and 'Argent Towers' is pretty good.
If you want a mage who can heal, then go with a cleric of Mystra in 2e - they can also cast spells from the Wizard school (and wear armor, because they are really clerics). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2014 : 19:16:28
|
| Also, in road of the patriarch, its stated that the gem tree is 12 years old, so putting the timeline in the 1370's or so |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2014 : 21:54:26
|
I don't see Helmont the 15th staying in power in Carmathan (which neither did you guys). He's an imposter. Gareth knows it. He's already got a midwife who will claim it, AND he's got the monks of the monastery of the yellow rose researching it. That one is tied up with a nice bow showing that that guy is going away in everything canon. That's why I put at least the little bit of spin on it that Ree at least turned the guy's removal into a win for himself in the public eye (via the dim-witted but lovable kneebreakers). This all shows Ree as more of a politician who takes advantage of things (which is what he was... his brother's the nefarious bad guy). So, both Dimian Ree and Gareth win there. I can see Dimian Ree trying to placate his brother half-heartedly by supporting Tarkos Ree's bid to become Duke (which fails). If I had to pick someone to become the new Duke, it would be Gareth's paladin friend from the twilight riders (Justin M'Dael) who also married another member of the twilight riders (Tamarin Moonwisher, a ranger). It makes sense what with the twilight riders being loved in Carmathan and Polten. Noting that I had earlier said that Donlevy the younger might offer up noble titles to the twilight riders in Polten, Justin and Tamarin might have a large brood of children, and thus the first 3 males born would be born into titles. Their children would also be of the right age to begin immediate building of a dynasty with Gareth's children, and thus their firstborn girl might be pledged to Gareth's firstborn boy (that is if Baron Donlevy's firstborn girl isn't so pledged... in which case Gareth's secondborn son may be pledged to Justin and Tamarin's firstborn girl).
This leaves up some questions as to marriages / rulerships of the various baronies Duchy's leftover... and I'm thinking it'd be a fun exercise to play a game laying that out right now. So, I'll see where it takes me by listing them all and working from there.
Duchy of Arcata (population in 1358 roughly 15 thousand)- - at end of war, the Duke had an agreement with Gareth that there would be no reparations. So, Duke William Horgath the 8th still rules. Presumably he was already married and has a line of children in play. Who might these children marry?
Barony of Bloodstone (population in 1358 roughly 12 thousand)- - at end of war, Gareth is still the official Baron through marriage of his wife Christine (the official heiress). I see this as being a barony that becomes promised to Gareth's second son (as the heir will be king). Until his son can become old enough, Gareth probably places a trusted council of stewards/Castellans in place and probably spends 1/3 of his time in Bloodstone village and 1/3 of his time in Heliogabalus and 1/3 of his time visiting other baronies & duchies to make sure there's no grumbling (so Gareth is probably constantly moving his court every 2 or 3 weeks with occasional 2 month "rest" stints where he rests in Heliogabalus or Bloodstone, whichever is closer at the time) . With Emelyn the Gray in the Warrenwood, he may help with this stewardship when Gareth is away.
Duchy of Brandiar - at the end of the war, a war hero named Dormythyrr who managed to rally the Duchies forces and turn them over to Gareth was reigning as steward. However, this Duchy is one that is divided on its support of Gareth. I also find it intriguing that on the original map in bloodstone lands, it actually shows Brandiar as cut in half along the ford of Goliad.... almost like this Duchy was going to get cut in half. So, I'm going to make a supposition below that the Duchy was separated into two baronies.
Barony of Northern Brandiar (population in 1358 roughly 5 thousand)- already having an established person in place who is beloved by the populace, Gareth separates the northern half of Brandiar and places Dormythyrr and his wife as its baron and baroness. Its explained away that they simply "don't want to overwhelm Dormythyrr with the responsibilities of an entire Duchy for one new to such responsibilities". The newly installed baron is more than happy to take on being lord over the people in the north and letting go of the people in the south who were a pain in his ass anyway. Since he was a farmer before the war, becoming a baron is more than he expected. Who are their children and who do they marry??? Were their children already adults, and thus this line may be passing to commoner born folks of the same barony? This sounds like the best path to me.
Barony of Southern Brandiar (population in 1358 roughly 3 thousand)- The cleric and friend of Gareth, Friar Dugald, gained great notoriety by building a grand temple of Ilmater (dedicated to the patron saint Dionysius) near Goliad. Friar Dugald was given a baronial title over southern Brandiar in hopes that he could quell the complaints from the southern half of the barony, which he has done admirably. Who did he wed? Did he wed? Who will take over as baron if he has no sons?
Duchy of Carmathan (population in 1358 roughly 20 thousand)- - as discussed above, the twilight riders, Justin M'Dael and Tamarin Moonwisher become the Duke and Duchess. Their firstborn son is pledged to marry Gareth's secondborn daughter, and they will become the future Duke/Duchess of Carmathan. Their second and thirdborn sons are promised lordships within the barony of Polten, and thus they spend their squiring years being raised in Donlevy the younger's court. Correspondingly, at one of their daughters is promised to Donlevy the younger's secondborn son, and that son is given a lordship in Carmathan.
Barony of Morov (population in 1358 roughly 33 thousand)- Dimian Ree is the baron of this barony still. When I thought that Sylvia was no longer over Ostel, I liked the idea of the two marrying that was being presented (though I was going to go with Sylvia in jail and the Ree brothers framing her). However, now that I know she's still over Ostel, I'm thinking things should go differently. What if Ree were to marry for political & monetary power to further entrench himself? If this union were to bring gains for his barony, it likely would be seen as too bad. However, it shouldn't be a group that would be seen as wanting to encroach into this fledgling country's power structure (i.e. no Mulmaster, no Zhentil Keep, etc....). I'm thinking marrying into a country or city-state known for healthy trade (Sembia, Telflamm, etc...)
Barony of Ostel (population in 1358 roughly 26 thousand)- As discussed before, Baroness Sylvia brings in a Thayan Enclave. At first she never marries, and her sexual antics are much rumored. In fact, her first child is rumored to be of mulan blood, though some say his resemblance to Dimian Ree is amazing. However, later she marries Dimian's brother, Tarkos Ree, in order to settle arguments over her legitimacy (after all, Tarkos Ree is also of royal blood like Dimian). It is the child of this pairing which is named heir to the throne, as the other child is a bastard (much to the consternation of the Thayan Enclave).
Barony of Polten (population in 1358 roughly 14 thousand)- Donlevy the Younger is baron. Donlevy actually married his childhood love from when he grew up in Tellerth in hiding (this is to secure the succession as quickly as possible). His firstborn daughter is promised to King Gareth's firstborn son, and thus she will become queen. His second and thirdborn daughters are promised to sons of the Duke/Duchess of Carmathan and given their parent's lordships in Polten (one of whom becomes lord over the region of Tellerth, where the twilight riders were much beloved), and in return his secondborn son is pledged to the secondborn daughter of the Duke/Duchess of Carmathan and given a lordship in Carmathan. The ties between the baronies of Polten and Carmathan as well as the Dragonsbane family grow strong and their families become politically strong. If he has any more kids, I see him bringing in nobles of Impiltur to strengthen ties with that country.
Barony of Soravia (population in 1358 roughly 12 thousand)- Olwen Forest-Friend becomes the baron of this sparsely populated barony. Who does he marry? Probably a commoner, though possibly an adventurer type.
Of the remaining friends of Gareth, notes below:
I don't see Emelyn the Gray taking up a state position, as its stated that he moved into the warrenwood and rarely is seen much (which makes Christine Dragonsbane happy, as the old codger somewhat annoyed her per road of the patriarch). Emelyn does marry his apprentice Gabrielle, and he likes to joke with Gareth about voyeurism (probably why Christine is annoyed with him). Oh, and per Bloodstone lands, they also build a wizard school in the Warrenwood (or I should say rebuild). From that source "the school will be the most prominent center of learning and wizardry in all the Bloodstone Lands."
Since it states Celedon Kierney cares little for title or station, I don't see him taking up a state position (he may just continue to run the spysong network).
Riordan Parnell, much like Celedon Kierney, he's not looking to rule.
OTHER CANON DYNASTY INFORMATION
Promise of the Witch-King novel introduced a couple people also of the old family lines.
Ellery Dragonsbane, her full name Ellery Tranth Dopray Kierney Dragonsbane Peidopare, was a famous commander of the Army of Bloodstone. Ellery was related to the old Vaasan family lines of Tranth and Dragonsbane, she was the niece of Baron Tranth and the cousin of Lady Christine Dragonsbane, Queen of Damara, and second cousin (once removed) of Gareth Dragonsbane, King of Damara. NOTE: I had to look up second cousin (once removed)... essentially Gareth's great grandparents and Ellery's Great, Great grandparents were the same... almost like third cousins.
<Spoiler alert> Ellery dies
Also General Dannaway Bridgestone Tranth, brother of Baron Tranth who stood beside Gareth.... so Christine Dragonsbane's uncle. He serves as the military commander and mayor of the community of the Vaasan Gate and the Fugue. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6445 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 09:00:29
|
Well i'm afraid the knowledge that Sylvia is also still a baroness in the novels just reinforces my already very low opinion of novels. RSE's that change nothing and political powderkeg situations that continue ad infinitum are just lazy writing.
The two situations; Gareth Dragonsbane becoming King and Dimian Ree and Sylvia remaining in power are unreconcilable.
The entire country as of 1358 is polarised around choosing between the two sides. Sylvia, Dimian and Helmont cannot allow Dragonsbane to become king because they know he will take away their titles and imprison them for their treason and crimes.
Likewise Dragonsbane cannot allow those three to remain in power without punishment otherwise he would lose the support of his loyal nobles and even worse the peasant population.
No amount of assurances that he wouldnt remove titles would work because assurances are not legally binding and since he can change the laws even legally binding contracts would not give enough of a guarantee.
Politics and backstabbing are a way of life at these levels of power, to ignore them is stupid. By leaving such dangerous enemies in power, Dragonsbane ridicules himself and projects an image of a weak and ineffectual ruler unable to tame or punish his subjects. It would not be seen as benevolent or just, merely weak and stupid. His time on the throne would not be long. Dimian and Sylvia would quickly garner support from the merchant houses and the common people would begin to rebel. It would just be a matter of time before one of the baddies raises an army of mercenaries and assassinates the king.
Stupid or lazy canon is no canon at all.
There has to be a scapegoat and the punishment has to be as severe as the law allows which means either execution or life imprisonment, anything less would not be allowed to happen by the nobles on either side or the common people.
Whoever wrote the book just couldnt be bothered developing the history and political situation in the area using the plot hooks provided previously (or the research performed or provided was poor), which doesnt surprise me considering what i have heard about the bits done with Vaasa as well.
Now with that aside, a duchy is typically a collection of other holdings in an area including baronies so there is no reason to assume that Brandiar is not actually made up of two baronies. With the ducal title gone (its lineage destroyed) Gareth can either award it to Dormythyrr for his services, or as you have suggested, leave it alone and the two barons of Brandiar would have a little political battle, the baron that could gather enough support and pay Dragonsbane for the title would be the new Duke (if Dragonsbane wished it so, he might still refuse), of course this battle could play out over several generations.
I like the idea of the twilight riders becoming the rulers of Carmarthen and i also like the idea of Friar Dugald becoming a baron of Southern Brandiar. Since this is a church appointment, the baronial seat (holding) could be the temple itself, in which case Friar Dugald does not need to wed, the succession would be the next Friar appointed to takeover running of the temple.
Ellery Dragonsbane certainly seems like a good candidate for the marshal and commander of the armies of Damara.
Now what about Soravia. I dont know why, but a thought popped into my head about having a giant duke (or maybe half giant) given all the giant problems in that region. I dont know if Dragonsbane had any giant companions or allies on his journeys but it would be an unusual and unique appointment.
|
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9
Alternate Realms Site |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6445 Posts |
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6445 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 12:50:15
|
How about this for Arcata
quote:
Duke William Horgath the 8th survived the crowning of Gareth Dragonsbane with his neck and his titles intact thanks to the agreement he struck with the then Baron Dragonsbane in which no reparations or punishment would be incurred.
Today Duke Horgath is still active in Damara in 1370’s DR, however he is still under close watch by his own Ducal Guard who work openly for King Dragonsbane and report the Duke’s entire schedule to the King.
The Duke might not be held accountable for any of his actions during the war, but any new crimes he commits will incur punishment. As such Horgath has become a scared shadow of a man frightened of his own shadow and aged beyond his years with stress and worry.
The Duke married several years ago, but due to his lack of respect and power within his own Duchy he could not secure a marriage alliance from the other nobles of Damara. Nor could he find a willing subject from among the local peasantry. As a result Duke William has been forced to marry the 5th daughter of a minor merchant coster from nearby Telflamm; a marriage that brought with it significant debts and a loss of prestige.
However Horgath’s son, William Horgath the 9th is shaping up to be a strong and proud lad; if a little lacking in looks and modesty, with a streak of cunning and savvy from his mother’s side.
I decided that since the current duke was probably under surveillance by the then duke he would be under very close surveillance by the current king.
This means essentially that he can take no action without the king knowing about it and approving it which means he has very little power within his own duchy. This is likely to prove unattractive to any dukes and barons within Damara (especially those loyal to Dragonsbane) so he wouldnt get any local marriage alliances.
That leaves foreign alliances. Impiltur is a contender since it has plenty of nobles.
However given Horgath's bad judgement in the war he doesnt strike me as a terribly bright or charismatic man so i reckon the best he could do is a minor merchant's daughter, and he would probably get screwed over by said merchant so i picked the nearby and unscrupulous city of Telflamm.
Of course to mix things up for the future when Dragonsbane dies making the next in line a better prospect than his father means the fortunes of Arcata may change with the next King and in a civil war Arcata could side either way.
I think that Horgath's wife will eventually (or sooner) kill off Duke William 8th to put her son in charge with her advising him closely and her merchant family might get significant patronage from the new Duke. |
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9
Alternate Realms Site |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 14:32:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
How about this for Arcata
quote:
Duke William Horgath the 8th survived the crowning of Gareth Dragonsbane with his neck and his titles intact thanks to the agreement he struck with the then Baron Dragonsbane in which no reparations or punishment would be incurred.
Today Duke Horgath is still active in Damara in 1370’s DR, however he is still under close watch by his own Ducal Guard who work openly for King Dragonsbane and report the Duke’s entire schedule to the King.
The Duke might not be held accountable for any of his actions during the war, but any new crimes he commits will incur punishment. As such Horgath has become a scared shadow of a man frightened of his own shadow and aged beyond his years with stress and worry.
The Duke married several years ago, but due to his lack of respect and power within his own Duchy he could not secure a marriage alliance from the other nobles of Damara. Nor could he find a willing subject from among the local peasantry. As a result Duke William has been forced to marry the 5th daughter of a minor merchant coster from nearby Telflamm; a marriage that brought with it significant debts and a loss of prestige.
However Horgath’s son, William Horgath the 9th is shaping up to be a strong and proud lad; if a little lacking in looks and modesty, with a streak of cunning and savvy from his mother’s side.
I decided that since the current duke was probably under surveillance by the then duke he would be under very close surveillance by the current king.
This means essentially that he can take no action without the king knowing about it and approving it which means he has very little power within his own duchy. This is likely to prove unattractive to any dukes and barons within Damara (especially those loyal to Dragonsbane) so he wouldnt get any local marriage alliances.
That leaves foreign alliances. Impiltur is a contender since it has plenty of nobles.
However given Horgath's bad judgement in the war he doesnt strike me as a terribly bright or charismatic man so i reckon the best he could do is a minor merchant's daughter, and he would probably get screwed over by said merchant so i picked the nearby and unscrupulous city of Telflamm.
Of course to mix things up for the future when Dragonsbane dies making the next in line a better prospect than his father means the fortunes of Arcata may change with the next King and in a civil war Arcata could side either way.
I think that Horgath's wife will eventually (or sooner) kill off Duke William 8th to put her son in charge with her advising him closely and her merchant family might get significant patronage from the new Duke.
This works. Less so on the murdering at the end. After the loss of all of Damara's nobility on the night of assassinations, I'm seeing the death of any ruler as being something that's going to be researched well over the next couple generations. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6445 Posts |
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6445 Posts |
|
|
The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 15:05:27
|
I'm not so sure I agree with the assessment that Gareth would be considered weak if Dimian and/or Sylvia weren't slain or imprisoned. Reading through the Bloodstone Lands supplement it's apparent that Gareth intends to do things as 'by the book' as possible and wants to be elevated to the kingship by popular support rather than through tyranny. Now, I'm not saying that the common people would view him as a tyrant (especially where dealing with Sylvia is concerned), I'm just saying that Gareth seems to want to avoid the appearance of tyranny at all costs. So, why not come up with a way to make Dimian/Sylvia (closely watched) friends instead? Kingdoms are forged through political alliances. There are cases where kings cannot act without causing further problems. Perhaps Gareth seeks to avoid another civil war and instead extends an olive branch to them, one that garners mutual gain for them both, while at the same time having one of his wizardly friends (Emelyn, Myriddin, or Gabrielle) keeping magical tabs on them?
I will give it some more thought as to how these circumstances could come about but I think it leaves some interesting background story for the kingdom (or role play opportunities). You leave a dangerous threat intact AND you allow for interesting political campaign possibilities. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 02 Jan 2014 15:09:05 |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6445 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 15:33:36
|
Well looking at any real world kingdom in the middle ages and if you did not act against your transgressors you were deemed weak by your own nobility.
It is the nobles that keep you in power and they can remove you very quick, if you do not punish the wicked then they will all do whatever they want without fear of reprisal.
The people would probably just think Gareth Dragonsbane is like any other king/noble and looks after his own rather than looking to avenge their wrongs.
I'm all for keeping the evil, thats why i think keeping Dimian is a good idea (although taking away his title and granting it to his son is his punishment). And Dimian having a son keeps the evil as well.
But if you let Sylvia and Dimian live and keep their titles then they will do it again, and again, and again, until they are imprisoned, exiled, executed, or removed from power. Its human nature, give them an inch and they will take a mile.
Take Henry VII, he had an awful time with his nobles. He quickly had to prove he was a strong king by punishing those that were proven traitors and transgressors against him. But he also had to be seen to uphold the rights of the nobles and give them lands and titles and rewards (being tyrannical to your nobles will also upset them and cause a rebellion).
He was a very astute ruler and got this perfectly right. Sylvia is a traitor and has to be punished severly. Dimian Ree is not entirely a traitor and is still of noble blood (Sylvia is not) so he keeps a title (admittedly its a poor title but he is still a noble). And his son keeps the baronial lineage of his family.
Lands and titles could be removed and returned to various nobles many times in their life as they dropped in and out of favour. The political life of a king was very much in flux. Take Henry VIII, he was always swapping his favour to and from the Duke of Norfolk (until he chopped his head off after the disasterous marriage of Jane Grey).
I think most likely Dragonsbane would have Sylvia imprisoned (since he is a good guy) and given the thieves guild and her spellcasting ability she would probably escape. I think the threat of Dimian-Ree, his brother, and his son is a good for some fun. Sylvia if she were to escape would want revenge.
The most important thing to Gareth Dragonsbane right now has to be garnering the support of his nobles. He needs to appoint new ones loyal to him, appease the old guard that supported Virdin by marrying their families into his and granting them lands and titles. And he needs to remove the imposter nobles that were appointed by Zhengyi (who the old guard nobles probably didnt like anyway because they werent of noble blood).
If he does nothing though he would end up like the kings of france and have no authority and his nobles would walk all over him. It only takes for 30-40% of your nobles to dislike you just a bit and you are in real danger of losing your kingdom, especially if outside powers take an interest in your lands.
|
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9
Alternate Realms Site |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6445 Posts |
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Damara and king Dragonsbane
