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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 17:12:15
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on Soravia, Bloodstone Lands and Road of the Patriarch both make it canon that one of Gareth's friends (Olwen Forest-friend) became Duke of Soravia. However RotP novel makes note that he's constantly moving throughout his Duchy and never at any given place for very long. So, did Olwen marry? Does he have lovers all over the countryside? Does he have bastard children littering the countryside? Is he constantly travelling the countryside because he has to due to its size OR is he doing it get away from a wife that he married and no longer loves? My thoughts are that a good adventurer doesn't necessarily make a good husband or father. Perhaps Olwen's Duchess helps to raise his heirs, but she also knows that Olwen has bastard children throughout the countryside. Perhaps some of these bastards are even older than the current heir. Perhaps Olwen even recognizes his bastards and plans to cut up Soravia into much smaller baronies for these children (to the consternation of the Duchess).
I like the idea of Dugald passing southern Brandiar to the next leader of the temple. It opens up the possibility that at a later time perhaps the leader of the church was married, and he didn't keep the Barony within church leadership but made it a familial inheritance (not a problem for today, but could be in the future).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 20:27:42
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| on the magic school, just a note, the one built by Emelyn was originally a school for centaurs. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 20:35:34
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Now onto brandiar. I like more and more the idea of it being split into baronies. Nobles tend to object to trumped up farmers being awarded Ducal titles; it mocks their efforts to gain such titles and the efforts of their ancestors to keep it in the family. So the Ducal title should be allowed to lapse with the death of the family line (of course should a claimant appear then he could become the new Duke).
It tends to be that the Duchy name does not match that of a Barony (probably so as not to confuse anyone).
So the Duchy of Brandiar should contain two Baronies. The Barony of Goliad seems a sensible choice since that is the name of the primary holding.
I did notice in the writeup of Brandiar that it mentioned the former Duke of Brandebury (Brandebury being his family name) and that strikes me as a good name for a little village somewhere in Brandiar (which is a common way to get a second name). So how about the Barony of Brandebury somewhere in the north of Brandiar.
The main problem for Dormythyrr is that he does not have a baronial holding yet and so would need to gather funds to build a keep. He could probably take out a loan of course or maybe turn to other more shady means of acquiring funds. Maybe that could be some intrigue for later years. He takes out a loan from what turn out to be real nasty people, they gradually get him to do more underhand things to pay back the interest and hey presto the next time a war comes around he is blackmailed up to the eyeballs to support whichever side they want.
Liking this a lot. Especially the renaming, the baronies of Brandebury and Goliad sound great. The idea of the loan just screams Dimian Ree. What better way to show his "good will" to the kingdom than to help built poor Dormythyrr a castle. Of course, when tightpurse steals a lot of the building materials, Dormythyrr's barony will naturally have to come up with replacements. Of course, it wasn't tightpurse... it was lawless goblinoids from nearby Soravia. Darn it, but Duke Olwen of Soravia really needs to get rid of those goblins, and Dormythyrr really needs to beef up his border security. As it happens, Dimian Ree knows of some mercenaries that can be hired for this kind of light duty for cheap.... and the second they're hired, the thefts stop. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 20:40:02
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Back to Ree and Sylvia. I was upset with the Sylvia thing too (I had a really good plot written up involving the Ree brothers, her, and Sylvia/Dimian marrying and having twins, sylvia escaping jail, and the twins being taken away from Dimian to be raised as pages in Gareth's care). However, the task I set myself is to take canon and try to turn the best thing I can out of it.
So, we have the existing lore from bloodstone lands that paints these two in a bad light. However, it paints them with a brush that tends to paint people very broadly (I would give a comparison to Fox News <which I love, btw> and its ability at times to really make some democrats look very bad). Lets look at this from the standpoint of the average person living in these baronies, and then from there figure out how these two could get around their stigmas.
First, they stood up against a group of adventurers who admittedly slew Zhengyi and were seeking to make themselves rulers of the country. Why should everyone in the country (and it WAS a separate country again) suddenly bow down and claim a bunch of "killers" as the new rulers? If that were the case, how would Cormyr remain in power? Sure, they did a great thing... shouldn't they have gone to the new leaders of the country and received a bunch of roses and a medal instead of assuming that they now rule everyone? After all, they are loyal to Damara aren't they..... oh wait, no they come to conquer and create a new kingdom of Bloodstone? What's worse, this new kingdom of Bloodstone will need to SUPPORT THE ANNEXATION OF PARTS OF WILD VAASA? "Aren't we people tired of war? We should rebuild our homes, not build homes in remote wildernesses continually raided by goblins and riddled with disease by its swampy nature in the summer!" might have been the cry in many of these "rebel baronies" that Gareth and company marched upon.
So, after reading that.... I have to say that any cries of treason won't stand up in court. Dimian Ree did NOT claim to be king even though he was one of only 3 people who could (sure, he began administering the capital... but someone had to do it). Gareth wasn't king. Christine wasn't queen. They and their friends weren't proposing a simple return to the old kingdom, and the whole country was a mess since nearly everyone of noble blood had been murdered. Then given that most of the common people could care less about noble intentions whenever they're just trying to rebuild what they had, they just want leaders that won't complicate their lives. If they relent and accept Gareth and Christine as king and queen as a result of popularity, they might get to keep their positions if they change some of their stances.
So, Dimian first. He's a politician. In second addition, he has levels in thief, but in 3rd edition, I'd put those mostly in aristocrat, thief, and bard (his bardic skill being speech making) and most of his skills being in perform (oratory) and information gathering/knowledge/history type skills. He's not the sneak thief or cutpurse or assassin. If his bardic spell ability is in minor cures, that might just sway people as well. Maybe he's the type of politician who gets the message across through storytelling history (picture a nefarious version of Glenn Beck) and telling people "we can fix this by rolling our sleeves up and doing what X did years ago, remember him? He was ... yada yada yada". Through his information gathering and ties to tightpurse, he could also make "predictions" about the marketplace that "miraculously" come true.
So, his entry in BL states that "he has ties to the grandfather of assassins, and he may rely on that bond in the near future". However, he may have looked into the idea of having Tranth, Christine, and Gareth eliminated... but then he only saw that leading to his own death, given what all these individuals had accomplished. So, he opted to do what many politicians do. He created a crisis (a fake assassination attempt) that he uncovers and thwarts on Baroness Christine. Also, as I discussed earlier, perhaps he uncovers Gareth's discovery of Helmont the 15th's ruse in Carmathan, and he informs Helmont so that his misinformation network can try to stop Gareth. Then Dimian sends in the kneebreakers as a "third party" who "forestalls the evil machinations of Helmont the 15th", and the kneebreakers unwittingly praise Dimian to the common folk of Carmathan. So, who did Dimian marry? Well, you took the idea of the Duke of Arcata marrying into a Telflamm merchant family, so I'd hate to duplicate it. Well, what do successful politicians do? They marry a beautiful woman whom the common folk can model themselves upon, and whose alliance brings success. So, lets give him a very sexy and successful marriage to someone from somewhere that will be looked upon with respect, and which brings successful trade alliances to the people of Morov.
What if he marries the beautiful daughter of Lord Uthlain of Uthmere, and arranges successful shipping contracts and use of the great trade road, as well as building large warehouses for storing of goods on land given as a dowry in Uthmere. This also provides them a port outside of the control of Impiltur. Then have his baroness be a fashion trend setter, possibly using goods obtained from the east, as well as being generous (perhaps she helps down on their luck Damarans remake their house, using a bunch of local artisans, and Dimian capitalizes upon this good natured trendiness by being the person who helps "search out people who need the barony's aid"). All of this would be a front though, as Dimian uses these special projects to cover his abuse of public funds, get kickbacks from the artisans whom he hires, get kickbacks from the suppliers of the raw materials, etc... He may even leak knowledge of these deliveries of raw materials to tightpurse, such that they're stolen, but it doesn't affect the local merchants (and makes it look like the thieves affect him as much as the common folk). This same general concept works with other things (maybe the baroness institutes a program to make clothing available to the poor, and thereby employs local artisans to craft the clothing, imports cloth, etc... and maybe her fashion trendsetting encourages people to donate their old clothes).
I'm noting that Dimian Ree also is NOT listed as evil. He's listed as CN. So, maybe he's seen by some as a business person who takes risks, and they seem to pay off. So, he's a successful man as well.
One thing I definitely see happening with him is the idea of Ree's children being pages for Gareth. It would be somewhat of a way to hold Dimian Ree in check (though Gareth would probably never hurt the children to spite the parent), and it would be a way to see to it that the children are being sired correctly. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 20:57:42
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well looking at any real world kingdom in the middle ages and if you did not act against your transgressors you were deemed weak by your own nobility.
It is the nobles that keep you in power and they can remove you very quick, if you do not punish the wicked then they will all do whatever they want without fear of reprisal.
The people would probably just think Gareth Dragonsbane is like any other king/noble and looks after his own rather than looking to avenge their wrongs.
I'm all for keeping the evil, thats why i think keeping Dimian is a good idea (although taking away his title and granting it to his son is his punishment). And Dimian having a son keeps the evil as well.
But if you let Sylvia and Dimian live and keep their titles then they will do it again, and again, and again, until they are imprisoned, exiled, executed, or removed from power. Its human nature, give them an inch and they will take a mile.
Take Henry VII, he had an awful time with his nobles. He quickly had to prove he was a strong king by punishing those that were proven traitors and transgressors against him. But he also had to be seen to uphold the rights of the nobles and give them lands and titles and rewards (being tyrannical to your nobles will also upset them and cause a rebellion).
He was a very astute ruler and got this perfectly right. Sylvia is a traitor and has to be punished severly. Dimian Ree is not entirely a traitor and is still of noble blood (Sylvia is not) so he keeps a title (admittedly its a poor title but he is still a noble). And his son keeps the baronial lineage of his family.
Lands and titles could be removed and returned to various nobles many times in their life as they dropped in and out of favour. The political life of a king was very much in flux. Take Henry VIII, he was always swapping his favour to and from the Duke of Norfolk (until he chopped his head off after the disasterous marriage of Jane Grey).
I think most likely Dragonsbane would have Sylvia imprisoned (since he is a good guy) and given the thieves guild and her spellcasting ability she would probably escape. I think the threat of Dimian-Ree, his brother, and his son is a good for some fun. Sylvia if she were to escape would want revenge.
The most important thing to Gareth Dragonsbane right now has to be garnering the support of his nobles. He needs to appoint new ones loyal to him, appease the old guard that supported Virdin by marrying their families into his and granting them lands and titles. And he needs to remove the imposter nobles that were appointed by Zhengyi (who the old guard nobles probably didnt like anyway because they werent of noble blood).
If he does nothing though he would end up like the kings of france and have no authority and his nobles would walk all over him. It only takes for 30-40% of your nobles to dislike you just a bit and you are in real danger of losing your kingdom, especially if outside powers take an interest in your lands.
Therein lies the issue with Dimian, so far, they have no PROOF of his nefariousness.
For Sylvia, they may have proof that she favored her nobility over her peasantry.... but that's just poor management and fixable. They may question the fact that she was raised to power by Zhengyi just based on her personal power. But then again, they may have some nobles that will revolt if she's removed from power (they like her). So, maybe she's reprimanded... maybe even given some time where she must live in the same cells where she'd imprisoned folk who couldn't pay their taxes... but in the end, she's allowed to come out and be baroness again (having learned her lesson). This invokes the pity of the nobles, and perhaps even the commoners as well. Perhaps Sylvia even begins some practices to help her commoners.... Perhaps she also begins to curry the favor of Queen Christine as a fellow noblewoman (i.e. maybe she introduces Queen Christine to the Operas of Ostel, maybe she delivers a dress made of fine Thayan Silk that SO brings out Queen Christine's eyes). I only note this because Road of the Patriarch actually says Queen Christine and Baroness Sylvia become "somewhat friends". Specifically it says "Though Baroness Sylvia and Lady Christine had formed somewhat of a friendship over the past few years, no one in the room thought highly of Baron Dimian Ree of Morov, considering him the consummate self-serving politician".
I've got somewhere to go, but I'm having fun at this, I'd like to poke ideas with Sylvia next. Oh, and Sylvia's, Dimian's, and possibly Duke William's children might all be pledged for marriage. I keep bringing up the children's marriages, because in 1372, if children were say marrying at 16 or so... this kind of stuff would be starting to happen over the next few years, and the arrangements & negotiations would all be happening right about 1372. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6445 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 21:50:52
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| On my way out, but had an idea and wanted to jot it down. So, Sylvia wants fish. She's told that the fishing in Lake Mogador has been abysmal lately. She instructs her nobility that live near the lake that they must construct small ponds with canals to empty into the lake. She then sets up fish hatcheries along the lake and hires commoners to care for them and pays for their feed by accepting "fish food" in lieu of taxes. While she was just hungry, this idea resonates with Queen Christine (who is mind you a druidess). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2014 : 01:20:35
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Two old syaings...
"Time heals all wounds" and "Politics makes strange bed-fellows".
I can think of hundreds of reasons why the nobility may have finally 'come around'. The simplest is that the commoners loved Dragonsbane, and the lords didn't want an uprising by openly defying him. They may just be waiting for him to make an unpopular decision before they act (and thus far, he hasn't made one). While waiting, they may have realized a stable kingdom is good for their purses. The same would go for Gareth and his side.
War is costly, and if you can make deals with your enemies and use them to your advantage, then thats just smart business. Nobody is saying their good friends now, and the kingdom is full of rainbows and unicorns. Its just like any other kingdom, with back-biting nobles and Machiavellian politics. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jan 2014 15:24:05 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6445 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2014 : 08:39:58
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Nah, thats just trying to explain away poor work (i prefer to rectify it), but i will continue with the current line to see what other interesting stuff we can get.
About Sylvia, she obviously needs to set up her own noble house (if we are to keep her) so she also needs a husband. Now she is a powerful magic user and is not afraid to use her magic to get an edge over people (she charmed the major players in Ostel to keep herself in power).
So i can see her doing one of several things.
1 - Using her magic to call a consort - an incubus or some other outsider. This begin would have to be able to pass as human which is why i said incubus as it looks like a human male and i think can polymorph to make it appear however it wants. However the problem here is all the other magic users in Damara and priests of Ilmater that are likely to discover her secret. And then the problem of her son or daughter being born half fiend, but magic has been shown to be able to change a beings appearance and genetics if used from birth (so any half fiend could look perfectly human if desired).
2 - Using her magic to charm another noble into marrying her.
3 - Marry a powerful magic user of a similarly unscrupulous nature. (there are plenty in Impiltur)
I dont think she would ally with Tarkos Ree after Gareth Dragonsbane becomes King, because Dragonsbane appoints a number of paladins to the watch and army in Heliogabalus and clamps down on the thieves guild. I can see the Tightpurse thievesguild being only a minor presence in Heliogabalus within 5-10 years and would probably have to move into other towns and cities.
Perhaps Sylvia's friendship with Christine Dragonsbane is magical in nature, maybe nothing so overt as a charm person spell but just an occasional friends spell, and other little charms to improve their relationship.
So perhaps Sylvia and Donlevy could marry, he has proven naive in the past by trusting Zorth (even though he was young it still means he is too quick to trust). So a few bits of advice from Sylvia and she could become his confidante, then over time she manipulates the relationship into something else.
Of course there are foreign suitors for Sylvia as well. Impiltur has a variety of noble families, especially some of the newer nobles who will not be so uptight about recently established noble titles. The Starsunder family for instance that has holdings in Dilpur and Sarshel and the Uplands of Impiltur and one would presume it has connections in New Sarshel across the water in the Great Dale. That would give her connections to rival Dimian.
I'm not entirely convinced about a marriage between Sylvia and a leading Red Wizard, she isnt powerful enough for such an alliance and i think that Mulmaster and Thay probably entered into such a pact as an experiment that has yet to bear any fruit so they probably wouldnt do such a thing again.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2014 : 11:42:39
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| Just jumping in before returning to work. On Sylvia (and this is just me as I prefer smart NPCs over foolish ones) I wouldn't have her marry anyone that is overtly evil...so no fiends, Red Wizards, Zhents, etc. Instead, I would go with attempting to enter a marriage without magic (if she can manage it) with a noble from Damara or Impiltur or a powerful merchant family (if she can't get a noble husband). Any children she has should be married into noble or successful merchant families as soon as possible to solidify her power and worth to the kingdom. Depending on how you want to spin it...a true friendship with the Queen could cause her to change (or at least mitigate) her evil ways. Even if she remains evil, she can still come to see the value of cooperation over grasping for power through overtly evil/illegal activities. If you want her (and possibly her family) to remain a threat, then have her remain evil and constantly working to undermine the royal family (but intelligently). I would avoid her using any magic on the queen though...if she gets caught she's done for and she should be smarter than that...she is the queen after all and her enemies are going to be watching for signs of treachery. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6445 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2014 : 16:33:22
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Nah, thats just trying to explain away poor work (i prefer to rectify it), but i will continue with the current line to see what other interesting stuff we can get.
About Sylvia, she obviously needs to set up her own noble house (if we are to keep her) so she also needs a husband. Now she is a powerful magic user and is not afraid to use her magic to get an edge over people (she charmed the major players in Ostel to keep herself in power).
So i can see her doing one of several things.
1 - Using her magic to call a consort - an incubus or some other outsider. This begin would have to be able to pass as human which is why i said incubus as it looks like a human male and i think can polymorph to make it appear however it wants. However the problem here is all the other magic users in Damara and priests of Ilmater that are likely to discover her secret. And then the problem of her son or daughter being born half fiend, but magic has been shown to be able to change a beings appearance and genetics if used from birth (so any half fiend could look perfectly human if desired).
2 - Using her magic to charm another noble into marrying her.
3 - Marry a powerful magic user of a similarly unscrupulous nature. (there are plenty in Impiltur)
I dont think she would ally with Tarkos Ree after Gareth Dragonsbane becomes King, because Dragonsbane appoints a number of paladins to the watch and army in Heliogabalus and clamps down on the thieves guild. I can see the Tightpurse thievesguild being only a minor presence in Heliogabalus within 5-10 years and would probably have to move into other towns and cities.
Perhaps Sylvia's friendship with Christine Dragonsbane is magical in nature, maybe nothing so overt as a charm person spell but just an occasional friends spell, and other little charms to improve their relationship.
So perhaps Sylvia and Donlevy could marry, he has proven naive in the past by trusting Zorth (even though he was young it still means he is too quick to trust). So a few bits of advice from Sylvia and she could become his confidante, then over time she manipulates the relationship into something else.
Of course there are foreign suitors for Sylvia as well. Impiltur has a variety of noble families, especially some of the newer nobles who will not be so uptight about recently established noble titles. The Starsunder family for instance that has holdings in Dilpur and Sarshel and the Uplands of Impiltur and one would presume it has connections in New Sarshel across the water in the Great Dale. That would give her connections to rival Dimian.
I'm not entirely convinced about a marriage between Sylvia and a leading Red Wizard, she isnt powerful enough for such an alliance and i think that Mulmaster and Thay probably entered into such a pact as an experiment that has yet to bear any fruit so they probably wouldnt do such a thing again.
I don't see her marrying a Thayan, BUT I do like the idea that she was basically a source of rumors about her sexual infidelity. The idea that her firstborn son is very pale of skin, suggesting that she may have fooled around with someone at the Enclave, I think is useful.... because it gets us a bastard that will be overlooked for inheritance. In the conservative eyes of the men of the barony, this lowers their view of her, but in the eyes of the women.... they may envy her freedom (especially knowing she could have magically aborted the child). However, she then "wakes up" and realizes she's got to be more responsible (i.e. her nobles start talking smack about their loose baroness).
So, seeing what Dimian did (getting some hot woman to hang on his arm), maybe she decides to do something similar. She'll get some stupid but strong and "friendly to everyone" man. Someone who likes to hunt and fish, and thus will spend the majority of his time away from the capital. She finds this man amongst her own nobility, has a very public courtship, marries and secures her line of succession. She makes sure that whenever her husband is in town to play it up for her subjects. However, she favors her first child.... the bastard who shows such intelligence and love of knowledge. She also continues to see her bastard child's father secretly, and her thirdborn child is actually a result of her cheating. The enclave doesn't even know about this Thayan and Sylvia. Sound good?
After getting out of jail, Sylvia realizes that she can't just focus on her nobility. She begins setting up positions that create jobs for commoners, but that ultimately serve the nobility. For instance, the idea previously presented to setup fish hatcheries in pools on noble land. Commoners are paid from baronial coffers to tend these fish hatcheries, and nobles are allowed to pull directly from them since its on their own land, and whenever the majority of the fish in a given pool are full grown, they are transferred to Lake Mogador. Similarly, private game reserves are established on noble lands (this is less welcomed by the populace, though the druids of the realm appreciate having protected lands). In an effort to keep mages in her own barony, she also establishes her own baronial school of mages, and she welcomes both wizards and sorcerers from the commoner population. She also sets up a school for scribes and accountants, hoping to turn her barony into a barony known for educating its citizenry. She also welcomes the churches of Deneir, Milil, and Sune into her barony to bring the arts to her barony, and the craftsmen of the realm are put to work on stage scenery and costumes. This works well with Dimian Ree's new wife as well, and Ree's wife and Sylvia become close friends. Sound good?
Oh, and in 2nd edition she was a wizard. She has a high charisma though. I'd be tempted to turn her into a wizard/beguiler/ultimate magi.... though this does put her like 4 levels behind as a wizard (i.e. at 14th character level, she's only a 10th lvl wizard caster and a 9th lvl beguiler caster). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6445 Posts |
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Damara and king Dragonsbane
