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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 17:23:22
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Over time I've taken a shine to "redoing" old prestige classes that had the right "lore" or "characterization" idea behind them but were poorly designed from a gaming perspective. As a result, I've created a couple different wychlaran "paths" and I redid the durthan. Just yesterday I was talking about improvements that should have been seen on the Raumathari Battlemage prestige class for 3.5. I was just wondering, are there any other prestige classes out there that people didn't see remade for 3.5 that really screamed "this is a good thing specifically for the realms, lets make it usable"? Also, I had devised up at one point a prestige class to fit the Thayan Griffon Legionnaire. Is there any "group" in the realms that really should have had a prestige class made that never saw the light of day?
In particular, I think the Nar Demonbinder could use some brushing up (some basic stuff like having its spell progression be simply +1 lvl of spontaneous arcane spellcaster). Any others?
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 19:59:01
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I've always been really fond of the Orc Scout from Silver Marches, and the Peerless Archer. I believe both have a very specific lore appropriate role.
I think the Orc Scout is, can, and should be something special, and it shouldn't be limited just to orcs, it should be open to the goblin races, and perhaps a few other monstrous humaniods that could ally with an orc horde or have a tribal structure. that would necessitate having a scout. I also think it should be easily adaptable to the Underdark. It will need an extensive rework with some nice combat abilities and feats, to make it worth a player deviating from straight rogue or ranger. I also think in the North and the Silver Marches especially, there is a MAJOR need for a class that bridges the huge gap that exists between rogue and ranger in a frontier setting. IE a wilderness rogue if you will, AKA a scout, with tracking, survival, and perhaps a few of the combat abilities of the ranger or using the SKIRMISHER kit from Pathfinder, giving a sneak attack bonus on a charge action.
What do you think about something like that? I'm currently playing a hobgoblin rogue who actually is more of a scout, but I'm forced to take all rogue or give up any combat viability at all, whilst sacrificing two very important skills in the Silver Marches (survival, tracking).
Whenever I read of the North, I am struck by how adaptable, resilient and successful orcs and the goblin races have been throughout the history of the realms. They live in ANY environment, surface or underdark, and they continue to be so successful as to be capable of wiping the most powerful civilizations and cities off the map should they be horded together in a common cause.
I think there NEEDS to be a class that represents that well. |
Edited by - Cards77 on 22 Dec 2013 20:04:10 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 21:20:13
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I created something called the Pegasus Knight of Cormyr found HERE. This was created due to the quick alliance Cormyr had with the Dales and elves of Myth Drannor during the Zhentarim/Shar-cult attack, detailed in the adventure Shadowdale: Scouring of the Land. Basically my character (Ivan Brightmantle) journeyed with a group of adventurers after they had saved Wheloon during an attack from a Dragon and creatures the plane of shadow (Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave) in the hopes of being Cormyr's eyes-and-ears for the duration of the operation. This lead them to Shadowdale and helping their people out of being enslaved by the Zhents (led by Sculla Darkhope).
In alliance with some elves of Myth Drannor, they offered the use of their Pegasus mounts to combat the Zhentarim Skymages (a Prestige Class detailed in Lords of Darkness). My character, having claimed the helm of Kloeth Ironstar, knew well of the Pegasi ability and gladly accepted their aid. With the adventuring party equipped with flying mounts, routing the Zhents from Shadowdale became a much easier task. The idea of a flying squad also fostered the idea of having more of these used within the military force of Cormyr. So after the battle was won, Sculla Darkhope destroyed (literally), Ivan planned on returning back to Cormyr with the remaining mounts to strengthen Cormyr's military and provide reconnaissance, aerial support against other flying dangers such as Netheril's flying mounted units, Zhentarim Sky Mages, and the occasional Dragon or Wyvern attack that wasn't too uncommon in the Stonelands.
As far as the mechanics go, I understand that some people don't utilize or own the Tome of Battle: Book of 9 Swords supplement, for which this prestige class utilizes quite a bit from. In that case there could be alternative features placed within the class, such as increases in the mount's abilities or bonuses to attack or even AC. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
890 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2023 : 21:25:59
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| Thread necromancy: Elven blade singer is Exhibit A on prestige classes that need to be revamped. Second edition is so far the standard. The High Mage epic prestige class needs minimum age prerequisites at each level to qualify, not just XP. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2023 : 16:00:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Thread necromancy: Elven blade singer is Exhibit A on prestige classes that need to be revamped. Second edition is so far the standard. The High Mage epic prestige class needs minimum age prerequisites at each level to qualify, not just XP.
Bladesingers are a tricky issue. Looking at the various "offical" Prestige Classes 3.0/3.5 has put out you've got: Tome of Blood and Magic 3.0, Races of Faerūn 3.0, and Complete Warrior 3.5. All three have some major issues that were problematic early on in 3rd Edition's development.
Some things you need to figure out:
1. As a 10 level PrC, you really have to fill in a LOT more than a bunch of dead-levels, something both Tome of Blood and Magic as well as Complete Warrior failed pretty impressively at. Races of Faerūn did much better as they fit features into each of the 10 levels.
Suggested Work-around - I'd say either reduce the PrC to 5 levels and fill each one with one or two features OR keep it 10 and take the bulk of what RoF did.
2. Base Attack and Full Casting. There's this common misconception that it's too OP or broken or whatever to have a class that is nearly full-caster AND get the benefits of a full-attack bonus. For one, we've seen this already done many times in official products, such as the Abjurant Champion, Eldritch Knight (9/10 casting), and Jade Phoenix Mage (8/10 casting).
Suggested Work-around: I feel the Bladesinger - as iconic as this concept is - to maintain a nearly same feel. I'd highly suggest the Bladesinger be at LEAST at 7/10 spellcaster with a full Base Attack Bonus.
3. Some features come up WAAY to late to be practical or useful. Case in point: Greater Spellsong as seen in both RoF and CW versions. This feature that allows casting in armor (and light armor only, at that) is rather pointless when it's acquired 11 to 12 levels in a character's career. By then, mithral options, twilight enhancements, and even Alternate Class Features like the Fighter's "Armored Mage" feature make this ability sort of unnecessary.
Suggested Work-around: I for one would either see it acquired FAR earlier or just do something really cool, like making Greater Spellsong ACT like the Mounted Combat feat for you. So once per round (meaning, you can only benefit once) if you're hit during combat, you can make a Concentration check vs. the Attack Roll. If you're successful, the attack is negated. This is thematic, AND works with Spellsong concept.
4. Intelligence or Charisma? One of the Bladesinger's iconic features is their ability to enter Bladesong, an extraordinary ability that allows them to add their Intelligence modifier to the AC up to their level in Bladesinger. But since this class A) requires Performance requirements and B) is open to ANY arcane spellcasting class, why is it still keyed to Intelligence?
Suggested Work-around: Let the player choose which to key off of, Intelligence or Charisma OR make it a flat-bonus that increases with half-level (so max +5).
5. One-handed Weapon...or Two-Weapon Fighting? So when looking at the 2e Bladesinger kit, they say that they use one-handed weapon (or dual-wield when they're out of spells) and I feel that stipulation of rules of the time molded this image of a one-handed only weapon wielding elf. Except that the notion of wielding two-weapons - just read R.A. Salvatore's short story Guenwhyvar where she teams up with Josidiah Starym, a dual-weapon wielding Bladesinger - is also a thing. So 3e/3.5 carried on the idea of entering Bladesong with only one weapon and 4th Edition continued the trend, also requiring them to wield only one weapon to access their Bladesong spells. LUCKILY, 5th Edition has zero compulsions about dual-wielding Bladesingers, so long as they have a way to access their Components should the spell require it.
- Suggested Work-around: I say get rid of the one-handed weapon only stipulation and let the Player worry about getting around the idea of how to handle components. There's also feats that allow casters to use their weapons to form somatic gestures, which is very cool thematically and "fits" with what a Bladesinger would do.
6. The Prerequisites are tough. Looking at all 3 versions, each one still requires multiple feats, skill ranks in cross-class skills that neither the Fighter, Sorcerer, or Wizard have and it really pushes you to jump into 3-4 levels of a Fighter (or other full-BAB class) before even getting spells. I'm not saying that Multiclassing shouldn't be done, but some of the required feats are sort of....unnecessary. I'd remove Combat Expertise (just...why is it there??) and Dodge. The former is a really mediocre feat, ONLY taken to get the Improved ones later on and the latter is just flat BAD. Not to mention +5 requirement for BAB and only 1st level spells?? Odd.
Suggested Work-around: I'd require them to take Weapon Focus and a meta-magic feat of their choice, plus Combat Casting. Three feats, both showcasting their prowess with magic and weapons should do the trick. Also, drop the requirement for BAB to +4 and increase the spell-level to 2nd level or higher. This would allow builds like Fighter 2/ Wiard 4 or Sorcerer 4 or Bard 4.
7. Adding other bits. One thing that I never understood about D&D, and this is for almost all editions out there, is this idea that you can't "finess" a Longsword. It's....kinda dumb, especially when you look at the pains the 3e/3.5 developers went though in imposing their concept of Verisimilitude into the rules. For one, I'd absolutely allow Bladesingers to finesse Longswords. Easy as that. I'd also keep the RoF version of Song of Celerity, which is pretty bad-ass. BUT, I would limit it to a spell of 1st or 2nd level only. At 6th level, they can use it for 3rd level spells, and finally at 9th level they can use it for 4th level spells.
So to summarize:
Prerequisites: Any elf or half-elf; +4 base attack bonus, must be able to cast 2nd level arcane spells; weapon focus (any one-handed), any meta-magic feat, and combat casting feats; Concentration 4 ranks, Perform (sing or dance) 2 ranks, Tumble 2 ranks.
HD: d8
BAB: Good
Saves: Fort: Poor, Ref: Good, Will: Good (yes, two good saving throws)
Spellcasting: 7/10. They continue their spellcasting at 1st, 3rd-4th, 6th-7th, and 9th-10th. At 2nd, 5th, and 8th level they instead gain bonus feats that can be either taken from the Fighter bonus list OR Meta-magic feats (or Reserve Feats).
Features:
* Bladesong at 1st (When wielding a one-handed weapon, gain a bonus to AC equal to your Int or Cha modifier up to your bladesinger level). You lose this benefit if you wear medium or heavy armor or are carrying a medium load.
* Bonus feats: At 2nd, 5th, & 8th level: you gain a bonus feat. You can select from the Fighter bonus feat list, a meta-magic feat, or a Reserve Feat. You must meet the feat's requirements to choose it.
* Lesser Spellsong: At 3rd level, when wielding a one-handed weapon, you can choose to take 10 on Concentration checks to cast defensively.
* Song of Celerity (1st-2nd level): At 4th level, when wielding a one-handed weapon and making a full-attack action, you can cast a 1st or 2nd level spell as a free action, so long as the spell's casting time is 1 standard action or less. At 6th level, you can use this feature to cast 3rd level spells. At 9th level, you can use this feature to cast 4th level spells.
* Greater Spellsong: Beginning at 7th level, once per round when you are hit in combat, you may attempt a Concentration check (as a reaction) to negate the hit. The hit is negated if your Concentration check result is greater than the opponent's attack roll (Essentially, the Concentration check result becomes your Armor Class if it's higher than your regular AC.)
* Song of Fury: When taking the full-attack action with a one-handed weapon, make one extra attack, but the bonus attack and all other attacks in the round take a -2 penalty to attack rolls.
This is probably on-par with current 3.5 options that you can already acquire using the various options and splat-books. Assuming say...Fighter |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
890 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2023 : 19:03:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
I've always been really fond of the Orc Scout from Silver Marches, and the Peerless Archer. I believe both have a very specific lore appropriate role.
I think the Orc Scout is, can, and should be something special, and it shouldn't be limited just to orcs, it should be open to the goblin races, and perhaps a few other monstrous humaniods that could ally with an orc horde or have a tribal structure. that would necessitate having a scout. I also think it should be easily adaptable to the Underdark. It will need an extensive rework with some nice combat abilities and feats, to make it worth a player deviating from straight rogue or ranger. I also think in the North and the Silver Marches especially, there is a MAJOR need for a class that bridges the huge gap that exists between rogue and ranger in a frontier setting. IE a wilderness rogue if you will, AKA a scout, with tracking, survival, and perhaps a few of the combat abilities of the ranger or using the SKIRMISHER kit from Pathfinder, giving a sneak attack bonus on a charge action.
Complete Adventurer has a core class called Scout that should closely fit your needs. One tiny drawback is unlike ranger, you don't get Track as a bonus feat until 4th class level earliest. |
Edited by - Delnyn on 25 Aug 2023 19:06:05 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2023 : 11:27:02
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I was just wondering, are there any other prestige classes out there that people didn't see remade for 3.5 that really screamed "this is a good thing specifically for the realms, lets make it usable"?
One class that's sort of stood out for me was the Black Flame Zealot from Complete Divine / Unapproachable East. It's a really interesting class that takes some elements of the Rogue/Assassin and blends it with the Cleric. But one of the most glaring issues is the silliness of only being a 1/2 Divine Caster. Really, there's absolutely zero need to only get half your spells added. The classes Base Attack is the same as a clerics, has two good saves, and is a d8 Hit Die. Other divine Prestige Classes like the Morninglord of Lathander, the Stormlord, Heartwarder, Dreadmaster, etc all have full ten-level abilities, d8 HD, two good saves, BUT they also sport full divine spellcasting.
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
890 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2023 : 19:17:36
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| A prestige class that offers extremely low spell progression is typically intended to focus on the non-spell elements. Whether the intention offsets unacceptable consequences is another story. I looked at Black Flame Zealot as an assassin who uses divine spells, not arcane spells in a separate spell progression. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2023 : 19:59:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
A prestige class that offers extremely low spell progression is typically intended to focus on the non-spell elements. Whether the intention offsets unacceptable consequences is another story. I looked at Black Flame Zealot as an assassin who uses divine spells, not arcane spells in a separate spell progression.
Its a religious order dedicated specifically to a deity to further his plans and thwart his enemies. I'm not sure why they wouldn't be given the full benefit of the divine just because they carry out their mission differently?
Mechanically speaking, and using other divine PrCs as a comparison, theres not much that justifies not being a full or - at worst - a 9/10 caster for what benefits they receive. You get +3d6 sneak attack (which is rather meh considering feats like Sacred Outlaw exist), poison use, fire effects, and some teleportation abilities. Most of this is easily obtainable via other methods. Then theres the oddness of the Kukri, because thats a thing for some reason? |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
890 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2023 : 20:28:23
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Kukri is a light crit-fishing weapon well suited for rogue types. It makes more sense for a Black Flame Zealot to be proficient in a kukri than a dweomerkeeper to be proficient in shuriken. I postulate the 5/10 spell progression was to make the Zealot on par with assassin arcane spellcasting. Don't get me wrong. Losing more than a level of spellcasting is a deal breaker for me too.
Whether the assassin PrC was well designed is another story. |
Edited by - Delnyn on 27 Aug 2023 20:34:59 |
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Kessalin
Acolyte
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2023 : 04:52:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Bladesinger
I worked with the DM of the campaign I'm playing in currently to make this class a bit more palatable, and ended up doing something very similar to this.
My prerequisites are BAB +4, 1st-level arcane spells, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Weapon Focus (Longsword or Rapier), Concentration 4 ranks, Tumble 2 ranks, Perform (Dance) 2 ranks and Perform (Sing) 1 rank. Must be elf or half-elf.
For class abilities I left it pretty much unchanged from Races of Faerun, but I see your reasoning for making the changes you did. I made it 7/10 casting, with the levels where you get a feat (2, 5, 8) being the levels that you don't get a caster level. To be fair, I only went to level 6 in Bladesinger, because I want to finish Abjurant Champion before the end of the Anauroch adventure.
Song of Celerity, as written, really is the defining feature of this class. I'm not sure if it should be moved later, or earlier with a spell level progression like you've done. I don't think it should be limited to level 4 or below, however. Taking this class pretty much ensures you won't be casting 9th level spells, and honestly beyond 7th level I don't think there are many spells for the gish archetype that aren't just generally good arcane spells. I could see it coming in earlier and just quickening spell levels equal to your class level or below.
Changing it to a casting progression rather than its own spell list and adjusting entry requirements to allow it to be taken at level 6 make it much more playable, in my experience. Sure, it's no Abjurant Champion but it pairs well with it. It's a running joke that I'm in the middle of the group wearing essentially a t-shirt and jeans while everyone else is in full plate, and I'm the one no one can hit. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2023 : 22:05:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Kessalin
My prerequisites are BAB +4, 1st-level arcane spells, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Weapon Focus (Longsword or Rapier), Concentration 4 ranks, Tumble 2 ranks, Perform (Dance) 2 ranks and Perform (Sing) 1 rank. Must be elf or half-elf.
That's pretty fair. It's better than the official versions.
quote:
Originally posted by Kessalin
For class abilities I left it pretty much unchanged from Races of Faerun, but I see your reasoning for making the changes you did. I made it 7/10 casting, with the levels where you get a feat (2, 5, 8) being the levels that you don't get a caster level. To be fair, I only went to level 6 in Bladesinger, because I want to finish Abjurant Champion before the end of the Anauroch adventure.
Oh, I enjoyed the Anauroch campaign! 7/10 is a good mix and better than 5/10. The Races of Faerūn book did a good job if you ignore the whole separate spellcasting thing it tried.
quote:
Originally posted by Kessalin
Song of Celerity, as written, really is the defining feature of this class. I'm not sure if it should be moved later, or earlier with a spell level progression like you've done. I don't think it should be limited to level 4 or below, however. Taking this class pretty much ensures you won't be casting 9th level spells, and honestly beyond 7th level I don't think there are many spells for the gish archetype that aren't just generally good arcane spells. I could see it coming in earlier and just quickening spell levels equal to your class level or below.
Changing it to a casting progression rather than its own spell list and adjusting entry requirements to allow it to be taken at level 6 make it much more playable, in my experience. Sure, it's no Abjurant Champion but it pairs well with it. It's a running joke that I'm in the middle of the group wearing essentially a t-shirt and jeans while everyone else is in full plate, and I'm the one no one can hit.
For Song if Celerity, getting basically free Quicken spells for attacking in melee is pretty amazing. I kept it limited to 4th level because the Races of Faerūn version Topped out at 4th level spells. So to me, it fit thematically with what had come before without being constricted by their limited spells. |
Edited by - Diffan on 03 Sep 2023 13:59:02 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2023 : 23:45:14
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| FWIW, I reworked the battlerager, which I freely admit was not up to snuff (it also got nerfed a bit from what I originally submitted). I am currently playtesting the revised 10-level version. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
890 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2023 : 00:21:34
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
FWIW, I reworked the battlerager, which I freely admit was not up to snuff (it also got nerfed a bit from what I originally submitted). I am currently playtesting the revised 10-level version.
Could the battleragers drink a beverage like Rashemaar juihild or GutBuster? |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2023 : 01:43:13
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| Yes... |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2023 : 14:06:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Kukri is a light crit-fishing weapon well suited for rogue types. It makes more sense for a Black Flame Zealot to be proficient in a kukri than a dweomerkeeper to be proficient in shuriken. I postulate the 5/10 spell progression was to make the Zealot on par with assassin arcane spellcasting. Don't get me wrong. Losing more than a level of spellcasting is a deal breaker for me too.
Whether the assassin PrC was well designed is another story.
I'm not sure I buy the reasoning for the Kurkri Prerequisite as simply one to propagate more Critical Hits, however you're correct that it's a better weapon for a Rogue for that purpose AND a better choice than Dweomerkeepers and their oddly placed Shuriken.
Assassins don't have spellcasting requirements though, as their spell progression comes innately from themselves and are done though a small list. I still maintain the idea that they need more than 5/10 for their spells. I'd settle for something like 8/10, losing their spellcasting level at 3rd and 9th level because of their Sneak Attack feature (or 7/10 and go 3rd, 6th, 9th). SOmething like that. |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2023 : 19:41:50
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| I think the shuriken is fine for manifesting the star like effect of someting like weapon of deity, but totally agree its a crap favored weapon and shouldn't be prerequisite. Some deities, frankly, shouldn't have a favored weapon. |
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3.0 FR-specific prest. classes needing upgd to 3.5
