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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 21:00:14
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The railroad in my homebrew world passes beneath a massive mountain range (the main empire is cut-off from most of the other nations by it), where they have been running into nothing but trouble (imagine how underdark races would feel about something like that).
The only other line that runs out of the Empire crosses a massive ravine, which could also lead to all sorts of fun (there is only one stop on the other side - most other nations don't want the empire continuing into their lands, thus facilitating an easy take-over).
So I found ways to greatly limit the railways as well. Still not sure if I would want to bring that into FR, or how. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 22:45:17
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The discussion of the Realms and tech is one that seems to come up a lot here at the keep! This is the third or fourth such discussion I recall seeing and commenting on (although this one has a nice focus on 5E/post-spellplague Realms and thus gives us some good info on what happened tech wise during the 'Time Jump' so I'm glad we are having it).
I'll pipe in (as I think I've done before) to note that, given the canon connections between Toril and our Earth, some gun tech MUST have made the jump from 'us' to 'them' over the years. Now, I'm not suggesting this would be a widespread thing, but more likely a 'B3 - Expedition to the Barrier Peaks' style intrusion with one or more portal travelers bringing their advanced (read 20th to 21st century) firearms 'along for the ride' as they stepped from one world to the other.
Most of those trips are somewhat inadvertent (and might involve certain 'wardrobe' style mechanisms or some such...) and so modern firearms would be unique or extremely rare items in the Realms. They would also be of somewhat limited utility as the modern fine grain smokeless gunpowder used in them would be worthless (and utterly non interchangeable with the magical smokepowder formula of the Realms). You'd also have only as many (largely inert) bullets as you brought along, so no reloads!
However...
1) modern firearms often have a small simple chemical charge that sets off the larger modern powder one - and that would still prove quite 'ouchy' to someone staring down the barrel of a modern gun - you might get a gun that would be deadly if pressed up against the temple or ribcage of a victim and fired
and (as is the case in my campaign...)
2) should a bad guy from Earth figure out a way to make an alliance with a local baddy of sufficient power (like the follower of a certain evil deity) he or she might find a way around the prohibition against gunpowder* (say the conversion of his guns to 'shadow weave magic items' or their powering by the shadow weave) and be a very dangerous man/woman indeed...
*Which I always viewed as being a part and parcel of the influence of the weave. To speak of 'out of synch physics' is one thing, but that just doesn't fly for me given what I know of general relativity and quantum mechanics. We live in a VERY finely tuned universe, and if the cause of gunpowder's failure was truly attributable to general physics changes it would likely rule out little things like the presence of MATTER in the FR universe. So, it is easier to say the 'glue of the weave' holds that explanation together. |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
Edited by - Kris the Grey on 11 Dec 2013 23:07:37 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 23:20:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
(...)
Also, as for why FR hasn't really gone full-tilt into chemical-explosion weapons: a simple cantrip will make your enemies go BOOM!. The situation in a magical world is quite a bit different then it was in ours, and leaving that much of a dangerous substance WITHIN your army is just plain stupid. Gunpowder would only prove truly useful in magic-dead zones (which I guess the Paizo guys figured out, because thats {sort-of} how they spin things).
Of course, one could also argue that in a magical world magical protection could also be devised ('protection from fire'), but would they bother? When you have to start allocating magical resources to protect your mundane resources, it starts to become a situation of diminishing returns.
(...)
I prefer to think that the Realms hasn't gone full-tilt into chemically propelled missiles for basically the same reasons (and maybe a few others) why Earth didn't, immediately. One, it's been around for very little time. Two, there is cultural prejudice. Three, it's tightly controlled by the Gondar (or they try). Four, there are technical and logistics problems like you describe. And then, five, better firepower is already available through magic, though it's hard to find and expensive.
The issue with blowing your enemy up with a cantrip is you have to get a mage to their ranks to do it. And then, you could probably just get a regular soldier with a match instead, and he'd do the same damage, and it would be doable in real life as well. Of course what this means is gunpowder stocks have to be guarded. And yes, a magically superior opponent will probably be able to blow you up... and he'll probably be able to poison your water supply, make your beasts of burden riot, turn the weather against you, etc. as well. Magical superiority is key in the Realms, no doubt. But then after you worry about what you can do on the magical field, you can also try other approaches, and explosives is a perfectly valid one, even if by no means easy.
Gunpowder isn't going to be an "I win" card in a Realmsian battlefield or siege by any stretch, but then again, it wasn't in real life either.
Edit: I just love these "technology in the Realms" threads! I just can't not barge in.  |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 11 Dec 2013 23:30:14 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 23:48:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
*Which I always viewed as being a part and parcel of the influence of the weave. To speak of 'out of synch physics' is one thing, but that just doesn't fly for me given what I know of general relativity and quantum mechanics. We live in a VERY finely tuned universe, and if the cause of gunpowder's failure was truly attributable to general physics changes it would likely rule out little things like the presence of MATTER in the FR universe. So, it is easier to say the 'glue of the weave' holds that explanation together.
So you can accept magic, but not different physical laws?  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 00:14:46
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I'm not Kris, but I guess the answer would be something like "different physical laws are fine as long as they are presented as magic". Sure, nothing really has to be held accountable to the real world, but there's the suspension of disbelief to care for.
If I'm presented with a theory that states, for example, that "the amount of heat generated by a flame is proportional to the square of the number of brightly coloured flying bunnies within a stone giant's arm's length in any direction" I'm calling it magic whatever the author says. Maybe it's the physicist in me, but I think most people think like that, at least in part. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 12 Dec 2013 00:18:03 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 00:40:53
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I guess what Kris is saying that despite how chaotic our universe sometimes looks, its finely tuned machine, and every last chemical/energy reaction affects a near-infinite number of other reactions, and you can't simply say 'this combination of stuff doesn't work', because then the butterfly effect kicks-in and the rest of the physics falls apart.
Can there be completely different physics? Of course... but you can't remove one bolt from a machine and not expect the rest to topple over. Its an all-or-nothing scenario, otherwise you have to say, "It magic!"
Its easier for me to believe there is a subset of rules attached to each crystal sphere (each would have its own weave/physics), and those 'local rules' over-write the general rules (and such things do happen within places in the universe). That would mean it should be possible to 'get at' the more general, 'core rules' by bypassing the local rules.
Hence, my own homebrew explanation (that gunpowder would work, but it has been 'turned off' by the Weave, which means it can be bypassed with further magic - hence Smokepowder - or by going into a dead/chaotic magic zone). If its not a universal rule (and it isn't - gunpowder works elsewhere in the D&Dverse), then the rules can be broken or gotten around (and they are, which is why we have Smokepowder). There is at least one other instance of Gond being able to completely bypass the rules of the Weave using tech (in Prince of Lies). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Dec 2013 00:42:32 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 04:49:34
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So we can accept concepts like giant flying reptiles, conjuring an explosion by waving one hand, and belief actually shaping reality, but change how one chemical reaction works, and the whole thing comes tumbling down? It's okay to break the laws of physics with magic and gods, but saying that the laws are slightly different is too much to deal with? 
Maybe it's just me, but that strikes me as saying that because some sandwiches are peanut butter and jelly, then there is no possible way a non-PB&J sandwich could exist.
And as someone who has worked on cars, assembled electronics and furniture, and done a fair amount of home handyman stuff, I think I can say with some authority that plenty of machines will function without any changes whatsoever, even if a bolt is missing. Machines that fall over with the removal of a single bolt are a very small minority. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 05:55:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe it's just me, but that strikes me as saying that because some sandwiches are peanut butter and jelly, then there is no possible way a non-PB&J sandwich could exist.
...Wooly, I think you need to be careful. Continuing to advocate this radical theory that other sandwiches exist is first-order heresy and punishable by tickle torture.
If you keep driving down this road, you might even start believing in crunchy peanut butter. And that's just nutty.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 08:25:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe it's just me, but that strikes me as saying that because some sandwiches are peanut butter and jelly, then there is no possible way a non-PB&J sandwich could exist.
...Wooly, I think you need to be careful. Continuing to advocate this radical theory that other sandwiches exist is first-order heresy and punishable by tickle torture.
If you keep driving down this road, you might even start believing in crunchy peanut butter. And that's just nutty.
Anyhow, the point isn't that it "can't be", Wooly. It's that when Ed or someone says "the physics in the Realms is out-of-sync" or some equivalent thing, I have to say, "alright, it's magic". Same thing with dragons flying (even though it doesn't get negated in an antimagic field and the game says it's just "extraordinary", I don't care, it's magic).
And while you are correct about many machines, Kris is also correct regarding physics and chemistry. Making the combustion of black powder not be exothermic, or explosive, within the framework of science, is not an easy task. I can't, out of the blue, think of a way to rationalise it without having to re-evaluate underlying principles which, in turn, would change the way the entire world works and might make life as we know it impossible.
For me it's easier to think of something like "they're not actually obtaining sulphur right, so they can't get the mixture to work the way it is" but that might be due to my low level of understanding of chemistry and geology as compared to physics (and, of course, that's moot by now as far as canon is concerned, since newer sources have established gunpowder, or something very close to it, does work in the Realms).
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Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 12 Dec 2013 08:26:47 |
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Madpig
Learned Scribe
Finland
148 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 08:50:52
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quote:
EDIT: As for FR's canon firearms - AFAIK, Ed greenwood is the ONLY FR author that has referenced them, in an offhand manner:
quote:
From [i]Elminster's Daughter
Ah, yes. I helped Vangey enspell this. Now, after all these years, he wastes it in some sort of toy mightywand gonne, such as the Lantanna fashion? The handsome intruder shook his head. I thought Id taught him better than that.
And thats why he is Ed, and no-one else is. He makes connections like that all time; he does not write in a vacuum.
Actually RAS was using some form of naval cannon in one of his novels. I think it was the one after Siege of Darkness. So there are atleast two canon mentions of smokepowder weaponry. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 12:21:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
If I'm presented with a theory that states, for example, that "the amount of heat generated by a flame is proportional to the square of the number of brightly coloured flying bunnies within a stone giant's arm's length in any direction"
See, as stated in another thread... brightly coloured flying bunnies are a NECESSITY to the realms. It should be canon. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 13:14:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So we can accept concepts like giant flying reptiles, conjuring an explosion by waving one hand, and belief actually shaping reality, but change how one chemical reaction works, and the whole thing comes tumbling down? It's okay to break the laws of physics with magic and gods, but saying that the laws are slightly different is too much to deal with?
Maybe it's just me, but that strikes me as saying that because some sandwiches are peanut butter and jelly, then there is no possible way a non-PB&J sandwich could exist.
And as someone who has worked on cars, assembled electronics and furniture, and done a fair amount of home handyman stuff, I think I can say with some authority that plenty of machines will function without any changes whatsoever, even if a bolt is missing. Machines that fall over with the removal of a single bolt are a very small minority.
So you're saying you are one of those guys that builds stuff, and has a bunch of parts left-over?
I don't put jelly on my peanut butter sandwiches - thats sacrilege. Its clear to me that jelly originates in the Far Realms.
I think we will just have to agree to disagree. I don't see why you need to break physical laws, when you can just create exceptions. Realmspace is an exception, because it exists within a greater universe with its own set of laws. Magic explains all of that - the local 'administrator' (Ao) has disallowed certain things on the server (the sphere), but that doesn't mean the very nature of the internet (universe) has to change. Just because people on that one server can't do certain things doesn't change the underlying code - those are just exceptions. Magic = binary in this example.
So what Gondsman (and others) do is create viruses (rituals/spells) that get past the firewalls. Once again, the rules didn't change, they just found a way around them. Smokepowder is a hack. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 17:35:09
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Wooly,
What Markustay and (especially) Mapolq said is basically my point.
To paraphrase Arthur C. Clarke, "Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology" to me they are both subject to the same basic laws of physics and they both manipulate matter/energy to produce 'work'. Magic is generally just a bit better at all that (as you don't need to do the hard work of figuring out how to convert your matter into energy or vice versa one step at a time - the weave/Mystra does the work for you, you just impose will and words to get the job done). To paraphrase Markustay "magic is the ultimate hack."
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Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 22:34:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Realmspace is an exception, because it exists within a greater universe with its own set of laws.
Actually, if all crystall spheres have their own set of "exceptions", how would we know if there are actually general laws at all? We only see the exceptions of Earthspace and assume these are some sort of general laws instead of just our particular "exceptions"? |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2013 : 00:08:36
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| The broken class of Gunslinger is a perfect reason why guns should remain rare. In my game, they simply don't exist at the level to even allow the class to exist. |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2013 : 05:21:30
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| You can always nerf the class if you think it's too overpowered. Meh, I tend not to like tech in my campaigns although I'm beginning to see the allure of it. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2013 : 14:10:10
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What I think is interesting is people tend to think of technology like guns and electronics existing outside of the world of magic which makes up the realms.
In other worlds, invent as well as popularize guns... the people of the realms will make spells to enhance or negate the power of the guns. Like Magic Circle against Bullets or Flaming Weapon Guns, for example.
Also the way people see Smoke Powder as different from Black Powder, they are basically the same thing, just one works in the realms while the other doesn't due to certain forces. Perhaps the magical field, perhaps acting as a fifth fundamental force, creates the need to repurpose the recipe for gun powder.
So some quick comments.... |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2013 : 21:01:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
What I think is interesting is people tend to think of technology like guns and electronics existing outside of the world of magic which makes up the realms.
In other worlds, invent as well as popularize guns... the people of the realms will make spells to enhance or negate the power of the guns. Like Magic Circle against Bullets or Flaming Weapon Guns, for example.
Also the way people see Smoke Powder as different from Black Powder, they are basically the same thing, just one works in the realms while the other doesn't due to certain forces. Perhaps the magical field, perhaps acting as a fifth fundamental force, creates the need to repurpose the recipe for gun powder.
So some quick comments....
Maybe smokepower is actually the same recipe as black powder and the magical component in creating it is actually removing whatever magical effect is preventing it from working. Thus it's not enspelled as much as it's unenspelled |
Edited by - Mirtek on 16 Dec 2013 21:01:48 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 13:10:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
What I think is interesting is people tend to think of technology like guns and electronics existing outside of the world of magic which makes up the realms.
In other worlds, invent as well as popularize guns... the people of the realms will make spells to enhance or negate the power of the guns. Like Magic Circle against Bullets or Flaming Weapon Guns, for example.
Also the way people see Smoke Powder as different from Black Powder, they are basically the same thing, just one works in the realms while the other doesn't due to certain forces. Perhaps the magical field, perhaps acting as a fifth fundamental force, creates the need to repurpose the recipe for gun powder.
So some quick comments....
Yeah, one of the main things I see being done is just having a gun barrel that is complete sealed at the back end and with no trigger mechanism. They then enchant the gun to be able to perform the equivalent of a "spark" cantrip whenever a command word is issued and the weapon is in hand. So, it would be little to no chance of a failed shot. The weapon may only be usable say 5 or 10 times a day, which should be enough for most people (and if they think they may need more, they can carry extra pistols). It would be easier to make mechanically, and you could fortify the end which explodes even more, so it would be safer. Finally, the enchantment would be extremely minor, so even fledgling mages could likely create the item (and hell, they may carry such weapons). Also, this would also make it possible to have multiple barrels totally separate lined up on one pistol. So, picture 4 barrels, each separated by a bit of wood, stacked one on top of the other. You could thus adjust a little bit for each barrel... or even with some minor cog work, perhaps the barrels could move down as you pull a trigger. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 13:23:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Maybe smokepowder is actually the same recipe as black powder and the magical component in creating it is actually removing whatever magical effect is preventing it from working. Thus it's not enspelled as much as it's unenspelled.
Which is precisely the same logic-path I traveled down. Glad to see I'm not the only one who recognizes that the correct solution is often the simplest.
They are not creating something entirely different, they are just bypassing whatever it is that makes it not work in Realmspace. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Dec 2013 13:23:58 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 15:05:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Maybe smokepowder is actually the same recipe as black powder and the magical component in creating it is actually removing whatever magical effect is preventing it from working. Thus it's not enspelled as much as it's unenspelled.
Which is precisely the same logic-path I traveled down. Glad to see I'm not the only one who recognizes that the correct solution is often the simplest.
They are not creating something entirely different, they are just bypassing whatever it is that makes it not work in Realmspace.
Given that it's canon that physics are different in Realmspace, I don't see how this is the "correct" solution. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Tetra_koiwai
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 19:45:56
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I just wanted to make something that can explode on impact and is relatively inexpensive...
In anycase, Seeing as how we are talking about this. What would TV be like to high level wizards and deities? Can they literally watch the prime? |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 20:14:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Tetra_koiwai
I just wanted to make something that can explode on impact and is relatively inexpensive...
In anycase, Seeing as how we are talking about this. What would TV be like to high level wizards and deities? Can they literally watch the prime?
There is this thing, explosive (fire) arrows:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Fire_Arrow_%283.5e_Equipment%29
But it's D&D Wiki, and it looks a bit overpowered to me (lots of things are on that site). Also, depending on the finances in your campaign, it might be too inexpensive. 10g per 5 arrows, for a +2d6 against a medium (humanoid) target seems pretty cheap.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 18 Dec 2013 20:18:08 |
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Tetra_koiwai
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 20:24:17
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| looks standard. Guess I'm buying me some fire arrows for my crossbow? |
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how much technology exist in D&D next?
