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Tetra_koiwai
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 18:44:06
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Could gnomes make 3D gear like in attack on titan? will pirates have pistols or rifles yet? I mean come on... They've got the magic and ability to think of things like this, why isn't anyone making stuff. I'd like to have a Gunslingger in 1480ish. I think it'd work out just fine. Of course I'd have to take a round to reload but I think a D12 is fair damage.
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 18:49:28
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Electricity doesn't work the same on Toril as it does on Earth. Makes me always wonder what would happen if an Imperial Star Destroyer crashed in the North. What would work? Guns, Lantan was working on those. If you want guns on Faerun, just add them. If they were produced in a common fashion, they would quickly replace swords and other weaponry. I can't really picture the realms as guns and sorcery myself, but do whatever you want for your own campaign. |
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Tetra_koiwai
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 19:05:29
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I think 3D gear uses Oil. Like wise you could use propane/ gas based appliances rather than electricity. as for Guns replacing swords, That would depend entirely upon how skilled someone is with a gun, by that logic hand crossbows have replaced weapons. At least heavily enchanted hand crossbows, would. Guns in their primitive/early forms which would make more sense wouldn't replace weapons they'd just be somewhat more effecent, and it would also depend on the bullets used, a gun with iron or lead bullets likely won't do much damage against a mithral chain mail. If anything it would only do non lethal damage and only on crits would you puncture anyone with AC above 17. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 19:22:44
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quote: Originally posted by Tetra_koiwai
I think 3D gear uses Oil. Like wise you could use propane/ gas based appliances rather than electricity. as for Guns replacing swords, That would depend entirely upon how skilled someone is with a gun, by that logic hand crossbows have replaced weapons. At least heavily enchanted hand crossbows, would. Guns in their primitive/early forms which would make more sense wouldn't replace weapons they'd just be somewhat more effecent, and it would also depend on the bullets used, a gun with iron or lead bullets likely won't do much damage against a mithral chain mail. If anything it would only do non lethal damage and only on crits would you puncture anyone with AC above 17.
With the level of tech shown by the realms, I don't think I'd dare trust any kind of propane equipment developed by them. I'm picturing ruptures resulting in death of wielder. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Tetra_koiwai
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 19:59:23
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a reasonable risk. I think that it should be a 5% chance everytime you use the gear, armor increases it of course. Studded leather increases the chance by 10 and it increase by 10% by every armor of high quality there after.
I think it could work out pretty well, its just pricing it that would be the problem. I think the gear would cost around 5000GP to buy, with regular servicing around 1000GP. (Like once a season or so) It'd be pretty interesting to see. as for gas powered stuff I don't think that's so far fetched. I'd like to see some stuff get made. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 20:03:34
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quote: The physics of the Realms are slightly out of synchronization with the rest of the planes, so that many technological devices which operate on electronics do not function. Equivalent devices may be developed by player characters. DMs should put some thought into what they will allow into their campaign worlds. DMs may choose to eliminate the use of gunpowder (or its magical equivalent, smoke powder) from the Realms, at their option.
-- Page 9 of Running the Realms, in the 2E FRCS
quote: The physics of the Realms are slightly out of sync with the rest of the planes, so that gunpowder and many technological devices which operate on electronics do not function. Equivalent devices may be developed by player-characters. DM’s judgment is advised as to what may be allowed into the world.
-- Page 9 of DM’s Sourcebook of the Realms, in the 1E FRCS
I'm happy not having guns in the Realms. I don't think they fit the feel of the setting... If I want to play a gunslinger, I'll play in Golarion. Or if I wanted to play a gun mage -- and I do really want to play a gun mage! -- I'd play in the Iron Kingdoms. Both of those settings have different feels, and guns are more appropriate for them because of it. |
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Tetra_koiwai
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 20:14:32
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Well I guess I'll wait till they change things around. Although what about things powered by oil? In one D&D book a woman have a box which held pictures and memories (magic) but still why not find a means to preserve food *Refrigeration* or a means to show someone else your exact memories of what happened during an event via magic conduit? |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 21:53:48
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quote: Originally posted by Tetra_koiwai
Well I guess I'll wait till they change things around. Although what about things powered by oil? In one D&D book a woman have a box which held pictures and memories (magic) but still why not find a means to preserve food *Refrigeration* or a means to show someone else your exact memories of what happened during an event via magic conduit?
Well oil is used for light, however I suspect you are talking about machines fueled by petroleum. While there does appear to be some efforts in tech to achieve such a thing, there appears to have been very little success.
As for magic, in many ways it replaces electricity, just is a different way to power items. They can not be mass produced, often custom items that requires a high cost and skilled enough spell caster. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards." "Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding. "After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first." "Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Tetra_koiwai
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 22:18:19
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Alright so lets say I wanted to live with baba yaga and watch the realms from the comforts of her hut. Couldn't I just create a large mirror which could scribe whatever I wanted to see and from there just casual watch the universe unfold? From watching mundane things like one random guys life and maybe trying to mess with him every now and then, to seeing Drizzt and other legends battle against people.
I think a forgotten realms Truman show would be a great book to get a laugh out of, especially if the NPC goes from living a normal life to finally finding out that someone has been watching him for years and he decides to become an adventure-er to find out whose watching him.
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Plaguescarred
Learned Scribe
Canada
190 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 22:30:34
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FWIW, Chris Perkins created firearms for his next D&D Next Campaign Valoreign and shared them in is last Dungeon Master Experience column back in march http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4dmxp/20130321
WEAPONS Name Price Damage Weight Properties Special Weapons Elven flintlock pistol — 1d8 piercing 2 lb. Loading, missile range 100/400, special Elven harquebus — 1d10 piercing 7 lb. Loading, missile range 150/600, two-handed, special Elven grenade — 4d6 piercing 1 lb. Thrown range 50/150 Ammunition Cold-forged iron bullets (10) 10 gp — 2 lb. — Silver bullets (10) 5 gp — 1 lb. — |
Yan Playtester |
Edited by - Plaguescarred on 10 Dec 2013 22:41:08 |
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Alruane
Senior Scribe
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 23:40:18
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quote: Originally posted by sleyvas
quote: Originally posted by Tetra_koiwai
I think 3D gear uses Oil. Like wise you could use propane/ gas based appliances rather than electricity. as for Guns replacing swords, That would depend entirely upon how skilled someone is with a gun, by that logic hand crossbows have replaced weapons. At least heavily enchanted hand crossbows, would. Guns in their primitive/early forms which would make more sense wouldn't replace weapons they'd just be somewhat more effecent, and it would also depend on the bullets used, a gun with iron or lead bullets likely won't do much damage against a mithral chain mail. If anything it would only do non lethal damage and only on crits would you puncture anyone with AC above 17.
With the level of tech shown by the realms, I don't think I'd dare trust any kind of propane equipment developed by them. I'm picturing ruptures resulting in death of wielder.
I can't see that risk being worth anything, not to mention the idea of guns in the realm...? I don't know, not exactly my thing. I'd prefer to keep guns out of my personal campaign. But that's just this humble sages opinion. |
" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?" ~Joneleth Irenicus
"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answers."
~Alruane |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2013 : 23:56:51
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guns have always been in the realms, but they are very rare.
with lantan gone, maybe the smokepowder weapons will go and never come back..... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction Magister's GAmbit http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Tetra_koiwai
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 00:36:50
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I like guns, If anything I could just make an improvised molitov cocktail out of alchemist fire. There are many ways I could make explosives. Which would likely be more useful than a bow and arrow, I could just attach improvised explosives to a bow and arrow, light it and let it fly. Then what, I made a Grenade launcher? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 01:21:55
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quote: Originally posted by sfdragon
with lantan gone, maybe the smokepowder weapons will go and never come back.....
I don't see why that would be so. We've known since the days of 2e that other locales and places in the Realms have independently developed smokepowder-based weaponry. The secrets of smokepowder simply weren't lost when Lantan was washed away. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Tetra_koiwai
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 01:23:48
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Why is it That We don't have pistols, I mean why can't Ed just make a story where someone uses pistols so we can use it as a common weapon but just make it really expensive. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 01:39:50
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quote: Originally posted by Tetra_koiwai
Why is it That We don't have pistols, I mean why can't Ed just make a story where someone uses pistols so we can use it as a common weapon but just make it really expensive.
It's not really as simple as that.
Besides, smokepowder weapons were introduced to FR at the beginning of 2e in Forgotten Realms Adventures. During the Time of Troubles, Gond imparted the knowledge of smokepowder weapons to the Lantanese.
We know Gond limits knowledge about advanced tech and that he was responsible for bringing smokepowder to Faerűn even though Kara-tur had it for centuries before that.
Here's a little on what veteran designer Tom Costa had to say about firearms in the Realms:-
"The information on early firearms in D&D varied from edition to edition of the game and among campaign settings and the level of detail that you ask for is generally just not there. Combine that with the fact a lot of players don't use firearms in their D&D games even if they exist in a setting, and there just hasn't been a lot of time put into rationalizing a comprehensive and consistent system.
IIRC, firearms were first introduced to the Realms in 2E's Forgotten Realms Adventures (as noted above), which had a list of which firearms were available, but a lot of Realmsian time has passed since then, so almost anything is possible. Again, in the Realms, firearms use magic smokepowder instead of gunpower as noted, but otherwise work as firearms in the DMG. Smokepowder was priced out in 3E's Magic of Faerun, but firearms should otherwise be priced as they are in the DMG. As with other 3E weapons, you can have masterwork and magic firearms and ammunition. As for creating distinctions between new types of firearms and old, even variations that were statted in earlier editions of the game, your best bet is to adapt the stats used in other d20 supplements like Ptolus or Iron Kingdoms or Freeport or Polyhedron's Spelljammer mini campaign from a few years back or make up your own. But whatever system you use, make sure its consistent. The same goes for the nomenclature of various firearms. There are clearly some inconsistencies between different rule sets and different editions. You'll have to solve them probably on your own however makes the most sense to you. The same goes for which firearms can be found where and used by whom. The information, other than that already sited by you and others, just isn't there."
...
Bottom line: it's long been established that no one writing for the Realms is keen for guns to become prevalent. So they'll "canonically" stay rare and marginal until someone changes their mind. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 05:48:05
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This blurb, from the "Gond's Way: Artificers of the Realms" article in Dragon 403, indicates that the Realms no longer has smokepowder (bolding mine):
quote: Whereas some artificers might use pyromancy to make harmless black powder explode as if it were smokepowder, others might eschew the magical solution and seek instead to rediscover the lost secret of smokepowder itself.
I don't recall seeing that mentioned (or explained) before. It might be that smokepowder was rendered inert during the Spellplague, and can no longer be manufactured... |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Dec 2013 05:48:27 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 05:49:49
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What do you mean under "technology"? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 06:49:13
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On the topic of smokepowder, "Elminster's Forgotten Realms" notes:
quote: Smokepowder can be bought freely in the "wild" trading city of Scornubel (and in later years, in Mistshore and Downshadow).
This, amongst other paragraphs discussing the manufacture and possession of of smokepowder in Cormyr in pre-Plague times, as well as some notes on Waterdeep (where smokepowder is banned outright).
That blurb doesn't refute the possibility that the art of creating smokepowder has been lost, but does seem to indicate that it can still be purchased in the post-Spellplague Realms and be readily utilized.
Other than that, the book talks about "Lantan's Works of Wonder," but only in reference to pre-Plague times. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 06:52:05
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I've never been keen on guns in my Realms, but after watching Solomon Kane I may change my mind. I have the Ptolus system, mayhaps I will look into adapting it. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 13:32:41
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In the canon Realms, I'm not a big fan of guns & tech, but I have some guns in my mash-up setting (due to the Golarion adds), and I am seriously considering a railroad.
Do you think my players would consider it 'railroading' if they had to take a train everywhere? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Dec 2013 13:33:03 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 13:48:50
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quote: Originally posted by Tetra_koiwai
I like guns, If anything I could just make an improvised molitov cocktail out of alchemist fire. There are many ways I could make explosives. Which would likely be more useful than a bow and arrow, I could just attach improvised explosives to a bow and arrow, light it and let it fly. Then what, I made a Grenade launcher?
With the level of technology in the realms right now, I see this improvised molitov cocktail having a range of about 5-10 feet, meaning its inclined to set its wielder on fire. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 13:59:19
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I'm not against smokepowder weapons in the realms. Hell, I've used them. What I am against is the belief by many people that technology should actually advance faster in the realms than it did in our own real world. That is simply NOT going to happen. Most "intricate" or "lofty" types of things are more likely to be accomplished by magic. There will be craftsmen who may accomplish some feat of technology, but likely they won't be able to duplicate the effort (and if they do duplicate it, it will be a rarity). Remember, the modern production line is just that... modern. They don't understands the principles of metallurgy that we understand nowadays. They don't have the amazing fuel resources that we have nowadays. Also, most of the better craftsmen are busy crafting masterwork equipment to be enchanted with magic, so they have little time to focus on anything else. They also have to spend their spare time making sure their apprentices can manage the building of the day to day needs (nails, basic ironmongery, tanned hides, well-formed rolls of cloth, etc...). Because so much time is devoted to magical discovery, technological discovery in the realms will move slower. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 14:02:03
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quote: Originally posted by sleyvas
quote: Originally posted by Tetra_koiwai
I like guns, If anything I could just make an improvised molitov cocktail out of alchemist fire. There are many ways I could make explosives. Which would likely be more useful than a bow and arrow, I could just attach improvised explosives to a bow and arrow, light it and let it fly. Then what, I made a Grenade launcher?
With the level of technology in the realms right now, I see this improvised molitov cocktail having a range of about 5-10 feet, meaning its inclined to set its wielder on fire.
just to be clear why I say this... glass especially lighter glass... is not a technology that has been well developed in the realms. Not saying it doesn't exist, but the first edition boxed set does clearly identify that people having glass windows is a rarity. Using clay pots filled with chemical explosives would be very heavy for an arrow. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 15:10:54
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quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
This blurb, from the "Gond's Way: Artificers of the Realms" article in Dragon 403, indicates that the Realms no longer has smokepowder (bolding mine):
quote: Whereas some artificers might use pyromancy to make harmless black powder explode as if it were smokepowder, others might eschew the magical solution and seek instead to rediscover the lost secret of smokepowder itself.
I don't recall seeing that mentioned (or explained) before. It might be that smokepowder was rendered inert during the Spellplague, and can no longer be manufactured...
Though, I'll note that later in the article, a Daily Power named 'Smokepowder Detonation' is detailed, and is described as "honouring the memory of this forgotten technological marvel [smokepowder] through this spell."
This could suggest efforts by non-Lantanese in the 4e Realms to recover knowledge of smokepowder. [Which would, of course, fit nicely with what we know of smokepowder being independently discovered elsewhere in the Realms during 2e.]
The article also directly mentions the fall of Lantan as being the primary instigator for the loss of smokepowder weapons/knowledge. Which also suggests that it's simply a loss of knowledge, rather than any effect of the Spellplague, that reduced the prevalence of smokepowder-based tech in the 4e Realms. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 15:12:25
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Also, a short time after that article was published, Brian James noted that smokepowder still exists. It's just been severely de-emphasised. The FR designers wanted to focus more on Faerűn's high fantasy elements, of which smokepowder was not a part. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 16:02:22
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Just to add, Kara-Tur had just begun some sophisticated experimentation with Smokepowder weapons (both large and small), and have had smokepowder for far longer then it is known in Faerűn (unless we assume it is a technology that has only recently been 'rediscovered'). Its usage is also much wider spread (due to fireworks). This is why I have added a 'Skyfire Guild' into my Realms, a'la the Illuminator's Guild of the Wheel of Time series. It makes far more sense if it is a carefully controlled substance by a select few.
Also, as for why FR hasn't really gone full-tilt into chemical-explosion weapons: a simple cantrip will make your enemies go BOOM!. The situation in a magical world is quite a bit different then it was in ours, and leaving that much of a dangerous substance WITHIN your army is just plain stupid. Gunpowder would only prove truly useful in magic-dead zones (which I guess the Paizo guys figured out, because thats {sort-of} how they spin things).
Of course, one could also argue that in a magical world magical protection could also be devised ('protection from fire'), but would they bother? When you have to start allocating magical resources to protect your mundane resources, it starts to become a situation of diminishing returns.
EDIT: As for FR's canon firearms - AFAIK, Ed greenwood is the ONLY FR author that has referenced them, in an offhand manner:
quote: From Elminster's Daughter
“Ah, yes. I helped Vangey enspell this. Now, after all these years, he wastes it in some sort of toy ‘mightywand’ gonne, such as the Lantanna fashion?” The handsome intruder shook his head. “I thought I’d taught him better than that.”
And thats why he is Ed, and no-one else is. He makes connections like that all time; he does not write in a vacuum. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Dec 2013 16:09:31 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 16:49:02
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there was at least one short story too about some spelljammers coming into Waterdeep with smokepowder weapons. However, as many have mentioned, magic plays havoc with large scale deposits of smokepowder, plus its a pain to transport compared to say a box full of wands of fireballs, and its less precise than the aforementioned box. Have no doubt that there will be those who will embrace smokepowder. However, they will be few and they will rarely find a good use for it.... but they'll always be itching to do so. Probably its most effective use will be seen in construction/mining rather than the battlefield. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 18:48:55
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quote: In the canon Realms, I'm not a big fan of guns & tech, but I have some guns in my mash-up setting (due to the Golarion adds), and I am seriously considering a railroad.
Do you think my players would consider it 'railroading' if they had to take a train everywhere?
I would use the Lightning Rail from Eberron, but that's just me. And, remember, until railroads became prolific, taking them was not always the fastest/safest way to travel. There will be MANY places the PCs can't reach by railroad (heck that's true even in the modern world).
I'm seriously considering a campaign that makes use of high magic and technology (up to an including canons) now. The trick will be how to balance it so that the tech doesn't overshadow the magic. I rather like the idea of 'Man-o-War' ships with 60ish canons doing battle on the seas...but I want magic to maintain an edge. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 20:33:23
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Smokepowder was magical, wasn't it? It's not just a mundane mix like in our world.
Maybe Murlynd (the cowboy-paladin deity from Oerth) should visit Faerun and share the marvels he took from our earth when he visited it during the wild west period.
As a minor deity he should be able to at least make his colts work during his visit |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2013 : 20:54:27
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Depends. There is a formula for it in the Watercourse novels (same as Black powder), but most other canon insist its magical.
Thats why my theory is that it IS gunpowder, but that a (magical) ritual must be performed over it in order to make it function within Realmspace (almost like making it magically inert... perhaps collecting the ingredients from 'magic dead zone' would enable it to work without any sort of ritual to activate it).
Basically, just stripping-out whatever bits of the weave have permeated it. There may even be a mundane way of doing that (that perhaps the Kara-Turrans have come up with, like a magic-filter). Like I said, just a theory (but the only way I can think to make all versions work, and still have the stuff be fairly rare). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Dec 2013 12:56:44 |
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