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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 21:15:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
This is, in fact, fantasy, where we are NOT required to choke down garbage and drek.
Because it set's a precedent that everything potentially at the chopping block from now on.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Why not take advantage of dumping the incredibly bad parts so that we end up with something truly amazing instead of something that still contains a huge load of historical drek that most people hate anyway?
Because I can never ever again read this truly amazing without having to fear that it will be cut off for whatever reason with the next switch.
I can spend my time just as well with countless other novels than with FR novels. I chose FR novels over other novels because they all tell me another little part of the Realms. If any individual novel or series of novels is then forever in question, there is no more reason to read an FR novel instead of one of the hundred other fantasy books I could read instead.
The 4e area in general is worse than what came before. Some of the novels happening during this area however are very good (in fact City of the Dead is IMHO the best FR novel ever) and all in all they need to stay and not retroactively be declared to haver never really happened. All the time you spend reading about the Realms? Surprise! You haven't because none of that actually happened to the Realms. Please buy our future Realms novels because ... well just because.
A new Realms where Sophrea Carver and Farideh and Havilar are never born? That would be terrible enough initself (if the fact that the can of worms that is random retconning being opened would not overshadow it) |
Edited by - Mirtek on 21 Dec 2013 21:20:21 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 21:38:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
This is, in fact, fantasy, where we are NOT required to choke down garbage and drek.
Because it set's a precedent that everything potentially at the chopping block from now on.<snip>
Isn't it too late for that?
Didn't EVERYTHING go up on the chopping block in 4e? Why save anything now? I think we should just roll with it - give the guys in charge a big hammer and let them yell, "Hulk Smash!!!" I think the 4e design team was 100% correct - just ignore everything the last guys did and create something completely new. After all, I've heard we are supposed to respect them and their {ahem} 'achievements'. Lets salute their efforts in best way possible; they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so in that vein, we MUST ignore and/or destroy everything that was done previously. Lets flatter the hell out of them.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 21:44:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Because it set's a precedent that everything potentially at the chopping block from now on.
News flash: it always has been this way, everything IS potentially up on the chopping block and has been since 1E.
quote:
Because I can never ever again read this truly amazing without having to fear that it will be cut off for whatever reason with the next switch.
Why? This is just in your head. It's a choice.
I really enjoyed Lady Penitent and even some of the 4E Novels. But quite frankly, if they rolled back and "un-did" everything in the Penitent series I'd actually be happier. I liked the books, the writing, for what they were... even if I hated the events and occurrences in them.
Rolling back doesn't "unpublish" those books. You still read and some of them, or some parts of them. A reboot to the fantasy world cannot unpublish anything that's been published in the real world. They're still there, and people would still buy them - even knowing they were not part of the current timeline. Heck, I went and bought some old books I hadn't read from 1E just to see what happened.
quote:
I can spend my time just as well with countless other novels than with FR novels. I chose FR novels over other novels because they all tell me another little part of the Realms. If any individual novel or series of novels is then forever in question, there is no more reason to read an FR novel instead of one of the hundred other fantasy books I could read instead.
Why would this even remotely matter?
I guarantee you that the Realms world you create in your head while reading novels is a totally different world than the one I create in my thoughts. Even though we're reading the same exact books and drawing from the same "canon" everyone is going to have dramatically different pictures of the Realms. What if I haven't read a novel that has something intensely dramatic happen in it... but you have? Again, dramatically different interpretations, for all sorts of reasons.
You seem to want to treat the Realms as if it were real.
quote:
The 4e area in general is worse than what came before. Some of the novels happening during this area however are very good (in fact City of the Dead is IMHO the best FR novel ever) and all in all they need to stay and not retroactively be declared to haver never really happened. All the time you spend reading about the Realms? Surprise! You haven't because none of that actually happened to the Realms. Please buy our future Realms novels because ... well just because.
Generally, when I choose a book to read (or finish reading), I do so because it's extremely good. I haven't read City of the Dead yet, so I can't say anything about that. But whether or not something actually happened in a Realms book is almost always totally unimportant unless it's a trilogy or an ongoing work like the multiple Drizzt series.
But even with Drizzt, unraveling a good-sized portion of the events in his novels just wouldn't bother me all that much. Particularly if it meant that we get a far better, cleaner, more usable and internally consistent Realms setting for gaming.
I can still enjoy all the novels that were "un-done" because they were pretty good novels. It's fantasy.
At the end of the day, you're more than allowed to dislike something if it has retcons or is rebooted, but please stop acting like fantasy literature should be inviolate from redaction, retcons, or reboots. This kind of thing happens all the time in many fantasy IPs and a lot of people still are happy to invest in those IPs and read books if they're still good. I mean, do you think JJ Abrams sleeps any less well because a few Trek fans hated his extremely popular new Trek? Do you think Hollywood execs are unhappy after making millions of dollars, just because the plot was lacking?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 21:57:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Didn't EVERYTHING go up on the chopping block in 4e?
No. You might despise the new events, but they did not recognize all the old old events that happened before them.
Just because our team sucks now doesn't mean their their tournament win 10 years ago will be declared void. Just that they won't win any new tournaments in their current shape.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
It's a choice.
Yes it is. I chose to read a FR novel over another fantasy novel which would entertain me just as well for the moment, because the FR novel gives me something bigger than just the moment while reading it. It adds to my knowledge about the Realms.
If the novels get retconned out, it no longer does that.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Rolling back doesn't "unpublish" those books. You still read and some of them, or some parts of them.
And I did so under false premises which were one of the main reasons I read them and didn't do something else instead.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
They're still there, and people would still buy them - even knowing they were not part of the current timeline.
I wouldn't. Same reason I'd never buy an Eberron novel. Non-Canon? Non-Interest! And it's a pitty, because I really find the world intriguing. But I won't waste my time reading "glorified fanfiction".
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Why would this even remotely matter?
Because it's the friggin reason I am reading them in the first place.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Generally, when I choose a book to read (or finish reading), I do so because it's extremely good.
And I read novels I knew I was going to hate (because I hated all previous books of that author) and had to force me through it just because they were FR novels and I have read all FR novels there are. |
Edited by - Mirtek on 21 Dec 2013 21:59:52 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 22:00:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Didn't EVERYTHING go up on the chopping block in 4e? Why save anything now? I think we should just roll with it - give the guys in charge a big hammer and let them yell, "Hulk Smash!!!" I think the 4e design team was 100% correct - just ignore everything the last guys did and create something completely new. After all, I've heard we are supposed to respect them and their {ahem} 'achievements'. Lets salute their efforts in best way possible; they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so in that vein, we MUST ignore and/or destroy everything that was done previously. Lets flatter the hell out of them.
In some ways, I think the 4E "crew" did us a favor that we have yet to recognize. It's "ended" the Realms which actually empowers people to re-envision it.
It takes a lot of gall to re-invent or re-imagine an old work in a new way, but this is what happens to the best fantasy literature. Always.
How many derivative vampire stories are out there? Would we be better off if we'd kept the original vampire story and just kept building and building on it? Or are we glad that we have a whole ton of people taking that original material and creating alternative versions of it, often surprising and modern? We'd never have Anne Rice's vampire series. Or Buffy's Angel series. Or Keanu Reeves acting like he's from Budapest. Or the Twilight series (ok hang on... Twilight was unforgivably bad, but it did fill a teenage girl niche, so it has value of a sort).
Good literature, good fantasy, will ALWAYS reach a point where it buds off and creates alternates, new ways of looking at it and playing with it's themes and tones.
How many derivatives of Frankenstein exist?
What about derivatives of Shakespeare, or re-imagined Bible stories, or old folk tales taken in new, surprising, modern directions?
How many derivatives of Buck Rogers are out there? Arguably, Star Trek is a derivative of Buck Rogers mixed with the classic Western.
The totally ballsy and badass thing to do here would be for WotC to embrace alternate realities and actually publish Greenwood's Realms, and also do stories in 4E, and also go back and do a reboot where the ToT never happened.
But they can't, because at the moment it's still not quite large enough in terms of a fanbase, so there aren't enough people to support multiple re-interpretations.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 21 Dec 2013 22:02:04 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 22:08:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
But they can't, because at the moment it's still not quite large enough in terms of a fanbase, so there aren't enough people to support multiple re-interpretations.
Frankly I think it never was quite so large. Even at it's height in 2e it wasn't large enough to just cut it into three separate settings that each only sell to a third of the FR crowd.
In erly 3e SKR wrote an essay about how FR regional supplements were put on the chopping block by the beancounters, since these sold much less quantities than generic rule books.
Now if each of such supplement only sells one third of these .... |
Edited by - Mirtek on 21 Dec 2013 22:10:48 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 22:11:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
...I wouldn't. Same reason I'd never buy an Eberron novel. Non-Canon? Non-Interest! And it's a pitty, because I really find the world intriguing. But I won't waste my time reading "glorified fanfiction".
(...)
...And I read novels I knew I was going to hate (because I hated all previous books of that author) and had to force me through it just because they were FR novels and I have read all FR novels there are.
I'm sorry, but you have strange reading habits.
You would refuse to read something absolutely amazing if it didn't connect into canon? And you force yourself to read books you hate, just because they are canon?
Wow.
That's all your choice I suppose, but any time you read any fantasy novel it's a "waste of time" because it's a luxury activity that has nothing to do with productivity. I prefer to read only things I actually enjoy. I'm not going to waste my leisure time reading stuff I utterly detest. Why fill your head with that, or even bother taking the time? Reading fantasy is for enjoyment... if you're not enjoying it, quite frankly you're "doing it wrong" to borrow a phrase.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 22:18:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
You would refuse to read something absolutely amazing if it didn't connect into canon?
Yes. If I have the choice to read something that does and I have only time for one, I chose the one part of a greater canon.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
And you force yourself to read books you hate, just because they are canon?
Yes. See I am a FR fan, that means I will follow FR even if there are partiuclar parts I dislike.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
but any time you read any fantasy novel it's a "waste of time" because it's a luxury activity that has nothing to do with productivity.
And the luxury activities that tie together have a greater draw than the ones that do not. Reading some random stand alone fantasy novel or playing 5h or Battlefield having the same lasting impact, aka zero except a temporary pleasure.
Reading a FR novel instead of playing Battlefield for the same amount of time has a direct linkand impact to future leisure activities.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
if you're not enjoying it, quite frankly you're "doing it wrong" to borrow a phrase.
See, I could easily counter that with "if you're only following the parts of the FR you enjoy, you're not a true FR fan. More like someone who only likes a certain sports team while they're winning as opposing to someone who stood to his team through good and ill"
I have read all 273 FR novels currently published because I wanted to read them all, even if I could count out a dozen or so I didn't enjoy and had to force me to finish against a lot of procrastinating |
Edited by - Mirtek on 21 Dec 2013 22:25:13 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 22:26:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Because it set's a precedent that everything potentially at the chopping block from now on.
That's rather what happened though already with 4e's mass inclusion of generic 4e elements (the Abeir retcon, the cosmology changing once again, eladrin being different beings, entire races of outsiders vanishing, tieflings changing to fit the 4e devil-only version, etc).
Retconning some or all of the 4e material doesn't mean that everything is on the chopping block. It would be a return to the setting's mainline chronology. That's how I see it at least. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Edited by - Shemmy on 21 Dec 2013 22:30:41 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 22:28:05
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Mirtek, doing things you dislike, or even hate, simply to adhere to some self-created rule... that's called obsession.
And I'm simply not going to bite on your "you're not a true fan" dig at me. It's a BS argument, and everyone knows it.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 22:30:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
In erly 3e SKR wrote an essay about how FR regional supplements were put on the chopping block by the beancounters, since these sold much less quantities than generic rule books.
Now if each of such supplement only sells one third of these ....
And therein lies the enitre problem with large corporations owning this stuff - they have a complete disconnect. I've brought-up elsewhere why this is a big issue, and not just with gaming.
Take a big company like Home depot. Lets say they make far more money off of lumber then they do nails (one $5 box of nails can nail-together about $500 of lumber). The bean counters decide not to sell nails any more, because it doesn't make them as much money. Now HD won't be selling any more lumber either, because no-one can use it without nails. A rather simplistic example, but thats how it is - a company MUST sell 'support products' that don't make as much money, because thats the only way to generate the income with their cash-cows.
Fast Food chains learned this - they don't make a thing off of their 'dollar menus'. They make a fortune off the soda and fries, though. If Hasbro is unwilling to take a hit in the splat dept., then they are already doomed to failure. You can't sell an RPG to anyone if it isn't properly supported.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 22:36:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Mirtek, doing things you dislike, or even hate, simply to adhere to some self-created rule... that's called obsession.
I'd call it a hobby. Lots of people have hobbies that contain party they don't like (e.g. liking using the tools used in the hobby, but disliking having the clean them up and maintain them inbetween). I know many people liking to cook, but hating to clean up the kitchen and the dishes afterwards (yet do it anyway because it's part of it)
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
a company MUST sell 'support products' that don't make as much money, because thats the only way to generate the income with their cash-cows.
Well, there are support products and there are support products. Some are neccessary, some actually are not.
If a lot of customers buy cheaper no-name-nails anyway, but buy your lumber for whatever reason, it can be a good decision to stop selling your own nails.
FR fans are just a small subset of D&D fans and most FR fans don't buy all FR supplements beyond the FRCS.
So if only every 100th D&D player is an FR player and only every 10th FR player buys a regional FR supplement, how important are FR supplements to the success of D&D? Important enough to justify the ressources spend for them that can't be used then for something else? |
Edited by - Mirtek on 21 Dec 2013 22:42:14 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 03:54:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
I have read all 273 FR novels currently published because I wanted to read them all (snip)
That's an impressive feat.
I don't think I've even seen all 273 novels (I thought there were less than that, to be honest). |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 04:00:54
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| Another method is to lower cost. Capture the same revenue from the audience who does want FR supplements with less costly products. Not every topic requires a deluxe, art-filled, glossy-paper, color hardback. Paizo does fine with softcovers for most of its setting line. Forgotten Realms existed just find as softcover supplements on plain non-gloss paper and essentially black and white printing. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 15:02:33
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Well, all I can say Mirtek is that I hope that none of the guys making decisions thinks like you.
If they hand us another wishy-washy, half-arsed, undetailed setting like we got in 4e, then this train isn't going to be rolling for very long.
You can only 'rinse & repeat' the "lets throw the MM at them without any sense of logic" so many times before it gets old.
"Hey look! A dreadring! Uh-oh... here comes an illithid, three Drow, a Red Wizard or two, an aboleth, five orcs, a Tiefling with 900lb. horns, nine goblins, a genasi, four dragonborn, etc, etc"
"Ummm... why are they working together?"
"Don't be stupid! Its a DREEEEEADRIIIIING!!!"
"Oh... ummm... okay. Guess that good enough."
{YAWN}
Hello 1975... I've missed you (NOT).  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Dec 2013 15:03:38 |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 17:34:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Mirtek, doing things you dislike, or even hate, simply to adhere to some self-created rule... that's called obsession.
I'd call it a hobby. Lots of people have hobbies that contain party they don't like (e.g. liking using the tools used in the hobby, but disliking having the clean them up and maintain them inbetween). I know many people liking to cook, but hating to clean up the kitchen and the dishes afterwards (yet do it anyway because it's part of it)
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
a company MUST sell 'support products' that don't make as much money, because thats the only way to generate the income with their cash-cows.
Well, there are support products and there are support products. Some are neccessary, some actually are not.
If a lot of customers buy cheaper no-name-nails anyway, but buy your lumber for whatever reason, it can be a good decision to stop selling your own nails.
FR fans are just a small subset of D&D fans and most FR fans don't buy all FR supplements beyond the FRCS.
So if only every 100th D&D player is an FR player and only every 10th FR player buys a regional FR supplement, how important are FR supplements to the success of D&D? Important enough to justify the ressources spend for them that can't be used then for something else?
No supplement should be necessary. I don't look at them as a necessity. The core books containing the rules are a necessity, supplements and anything else should be a bonus. I could technically run all things Forgotten Realms from my own imagination, but that's not what I always want to do. Sometimes I want to go and look at something that's already written by someone else and go from there.
I don't "need" it, but I do want it. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 18:41:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Mirtek, doing things you dislike, or even hate, simply to adhere to some self-created rule... that's called obsession.
I'd call it a hobby. Lots of people have hobbies that contain party they don't like (e.g. liking using the tools used in the hobby, but disliking having the clean them up and maintain them inbetween). I know many people liking to cook, but hating to clean up the kitchen and the dishes afterwards (yet do it anyway because it's part of it)
That's a flawed and faulty analogy when it comes to reading, though.
With cooking, people do the work because they massively enjoy the final product - the food. The amount of work and difficulty is significantly outweighed by the enjoyment of the food that's produced.
With many other hobbies, the love of the final product (or enjoyment of the final activity, perhaps winning a game) seriously outweighs the setup, preparation and cleanup.
With "reading for enjoyment", the activity and the end-goal are exactly the same. You are reading things you hate... why? There's no end benefit there if you hate the book.
If your end-goal in reading bad books (aka things you dislike) is simply to achieve a completionist goal, then it's really a pointless waste of time and energy and can't be considered a hobby. It would be drudgery. Obsessively and compulsively doing things you dislike, simply to follow a rule or check something off a list, rather than doing things you enjoy for the pleasure they bring... that's not good. And it won't impress anyone. Well, except for Jeremy, apparently.
Read books you enjoy, don't waste time on those you don't, and you'll be a lot happier. Seriously.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 19:07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, all I can say Mirtek is that I hope that none of the guys making decisions thinks like you.
And I hope none of the guys making decisions think like the "back to the OGB crowd"
That's like calling oneself a fan of a series that has run for 20 season and then saying that everything after the pilot was crap and has jumped the shark.
I could get people who like half of it or the first third and say it turned south after season 10 (or 6) or so, but the frggin pilot?
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
With cooking, people do the work because they massively enjoy the final product - the food.
And I enjoy the final product, aka more knowledge about the Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
The amount of work and difficulty is significantly outweighed by the enjoyment of the food that's produced.
And reading 10 or 12 books I dislike is significantly outweighed by the enjoyment of having the complelte knowledge of a novel series running for 273 books
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
You are reading things you hate... why? There's no end benefit there if you hate the book.
Because they are part of the greater whole I love and it would be incomplete without them. They are as much an intrinsically part of the FR as the 263 novels I enjoyed
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
then it's really a pointless waste of time and energy and can't be considered a hobby.
You mean like you participating and arguing in forum dedicated to a game world that you didn't enjoy anymore since years ago? |
Edited by - Mirtek on 22 Dec 2013 19:11:54 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 19:29:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
You mean like you participating and arguing in forum dedicated to a game world that you didn't enjoy anymore since years ago?
ROFL, you are a piece of work, Mirtek. I have played in the Realms ever since 1E, and have followed it ever since Ed published Pages from the Mages in Dragon magazine.
I have almost every game product for the Realms from the 1E-3.5E period, because for the most part I liked them and found them enjoyable, and have used bits and pieces of them to develop and enhance my home Realms gaming world.
My home Realms gaming world has been active since the 70s, focusing on the 1370s-1380s for the most part, and it doesn't include a number of "newer" things like the ToT and never will include things like the Spellplague.
As it so happens, I am working on a new campaign for my group right now, which will focus on Silverymoon and surrounds, circa 1380s.
I have not purchased anything from the 4E period, at all, but I have followed the material and am quite aware of the changes that have been made.
Your suggestion that I am not a "true" fan of the Realms is pathetic.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 19:30:51
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So whats wrong with getting more information on a period of time more people prefer to play in?
I had WAY more here - several paragraphs - but I'm done for now. All we keep doing is arguing in circles, and until we see something concrete, we are really arguing over something that doesn't even exist yet.
So lets see what they've got for us this summer, and beyond. I'm ready to love it... or tear it a new ***hole. Either way, I am looking forward to it. No sense bitching about it now. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Dec 2013 19:31:41 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 19:44:17
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FFS can we please stop wasting time with the snobbish back and forth bullshit?
To have on a forum space dedicated to Realms fandom someone whose followed the setting from the dawn of time tell another person whose read all the setting novels that he's "obsessive" isn't ironic, it's stupid.
Really, really stupid.
It would be a blessed miracle if certain scribes could manage to not personalize every disagreement they have with other scribes. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 20:00:51
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Jeremy, I don't really expect you to understand the difference between having a collection (obtained over decades) and obsessively tracking/reading an IP to mark things off a checklist, but there's a big difference.
Further, your assertion that I am "personalizing every disagreement" is so far from the truth that it really only amounts to a personal attack and nothing more. I'm willing to bet that you have had far more arguments with other scribes than I've ever had.
I don't mind if people disagree with me. In fact, I enjoy debate - particularly when I learn new things as part of the process. But trolls have very little to teach and almost never anything to offer.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 20:04:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Your suggestion that I am not a "true" fan of the Realms is pathetic.
Are you surprised? This sort of fun claim isn't exactly new to the site. But then again in Mirteks world I am not a Realmsfan at all so what am I posting for.
And a Merry Christmas to you all. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 20:29:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Are you surprised? This sort of fun claim isn't exactly new to the site. But then again in Mirteks world I am not a Realmsfan at all so what am I posting for.
And a Merry Christmas to you all.
You're a true Realms fan, Jorkens. Never let anyone tell you otherwise. Heck, you're a far better Realms fan than I am, considering that you don't let trolls push your buttons.
Happy Christmas and New Year to you too. 
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 21:09:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
But trolls have very little to teach and almost never anything to offer.
So someone tells you their passion and you respond with calling them out for being obssessed and having badwrongfun. Who is the troll?
You are the first one in this thread who became personal |
Edited by - Mirtek on 22 Dec 2013 21:11:36 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 21:35:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
[quote]So someone tells you their passion and you respond with calling them out for being obssessed and having badwrongfun. Who is the troll?
You are the first one in this thread who became personal.
Precisely.
Also, notably, the only person who does that anymore after Brace was banned.
It doesn't matter who has had the most arguments in the past, just as it doesn't matter that not everyone is able to see a difference that one single person thinks is so damned important.
What matters is that right here, right now, Realms fans are calling other Realms fans obsessive on a website dedicated to the already slightly obsessed Realms fan, and that's really stupid.
The fact that the name callers are now taking affront to the fact that when it comes to name calling the door can easily swing both ways is BEYOND stupid. "I rightly call you an obsessive and I rightly say you are enjoying the Realms incorrectly, and you DARE suggest I and mine are doing it wrong (even though you were technically only trying to illustrate the irony of my absolutist attitude towards you, the obviousness of which I will of course ignore in order to stoke the flames of my righteous Realms fan-ness)!?!? For shame!"
There is a whole other demiplane for that kind of mentally obdurate energy and I wish it would find its way back there pronto.
I am here to enjoy the Realms. This is a place for me to enjoy myself in my spare time. This is not a place for people to get their rocks off judging others who enjoy the Realms differently than them.
Can we PLEASE return to discussing the scroll topic?
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 22 Dec 2013 21:45:38 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4494 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 21:38:22
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The fact is, they're not going back in time and re-writing what happened NOR are they going to create a separate universe. Neither of these two options are going to be used, as far as I've seen from the designers anyways. We've been told that they are moving forward with the Realms timeline (post-Spellplague) and it's probably around 1480 DR. We've been told that elements from pre-Spellplague are going to resurface, including deities thought dead or lost or just plain ol' not mentioned*. They said that the effects of the Spellplague are going to be toned down and/or outright removed in most parts of the setting**. I mean, that's what they've been saying for a while now. So as a fan, we accept this and either roll along with their changes for a 'brighter future' within the setting or we don't and continue to play in whatever version, edition, year, timeline that we deem fit.
I, for one, am not particularly fond of some of these changes such as bringing back a lot of the redundant deities or Mexico and Egypt in the Realms. They will forever be cast out of my personal games because I just don't like them. Before, I had nothing to put in their place so I just ignored them but with the advent of the Spellplague and the convergence with Abeir, I got something new to play with. So yea I'm saddened to see these new elements go for areas I wholly ignored. But that's life and I'll have to roll with it and use the Realms like I always have.
* As far as unlisted Deities are concerned, I can't fathom why people thought they vanished or were ultimately gone? Just because they weren't listed didn't mean they evaporated into nothingness with the Spellplauge. I think there were, what, a dozen deities that officially "died"? Most of the minor deities just weren't mentioned.
** While I find it sad that they're removing most parts of the Spellplague and Returned Abeir, I hope they keep a few small places around for good adventuring areas. Some reminiscent pockets where horrors lie in waiting for the unsuspecting traveler is pretty cool and can make for great adventures. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 21:43:11
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| I hope the Warlock Knights stick around in some capacity. I kinda like those guys. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4494 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 21:51:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I hope the Warlock Knights stick around in some capacity. I kinda like those guys.
So do I, though they really weren't a product of the Spellplague so there's hope  |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 21:57:27
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| Eh, they weren't? Whatever the case may be I like them because they were one of the first groups in the post-Spellplague Realms that caught my attention and so my imagination. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 22 Dec 2013 22:24:11 |
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Topic |
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Is "the Sundering" an admission to screwing up?
