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DrErika
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Nov 2013 : 02:45:04
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I have a long standing campaign in Undermountain and I would love to delve deeper into the subject of Halaster's background. Although lore on the Imaskari seems sketchy at best. Any help on this subject Ed or anyone?
many thanks
~Dr Erika Van Sheldon
Mod Edit: Found this scroll floating in the ethers.
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"So did the Company of The Blue Axe fight and slay the horrid Trolls of Undermountain, almost at the cost of their lives, for anti-magic zones can make a "casual" encounter into a perilous one"
~Author unknown found nailed to the wall in the Yawning Portal inn c. 1369 DR |
Edited by - The Sage on 30 Nov 2013 03:32:19
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2013 : 09:53:39
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Halaster's background was hinted at in the Stardock adventure and then detailed further by Eric L Boyd in Dragons of Faerun (p.135-136).
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2013 : 11:48:10
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From Grand History of the Realms below
168 DR Year of Scattered Stars
A wizard of unknown ancestry calling himself Halaster Blackcloak [307],
later identified as the Raurinese wizard Hilather [150, 1026], builds a tower
and fortified ramparts in the middle of the Deepwater Plateau, to the north
and west of the burgeoning farms along the harbor shore in Waterdeep. He
begins exploration of the Underhalls of the Melairkyn and claims the delvings
for himself.
150 DR Year of the Lost Library
The wyrmling blue dragon Iryklathagra [145, 236] plunders Hilather’s [132,
168] abandoned tower in the emirate of Torsil
132 DR Year of Thirteen Prides Lost
Hilather [128, 150] presents thirteen Demonshields [1266] to Q ysar Ahahl
Shoon IV [236] and then vanishes.
128 DR Year of the Addled Arcanist
The Raurinese wizard Hilather [–2488, 132], after millennia trapped in temporal
stasis, begins to explore Faerűn. He is hired by the Imperial Court to
develop a more secure means of binding fiends to the will of their summoners.
He establishes himself in an abandoned tower in the remote emirate of Torsil,
which lies along the Sword Coast between the Cloud Peaks and Candlekeep.
–2488 DR
Lord Hilather [128], one of the last Imaskari artificers, escapes the fall of
Imaskar by entering into a temporal stasis vault in a secret military stronghold
deep beneath the western mountains (present-day Giant’s Belt Mountains).
The reunification of Lower and Upper Imaskar
under the strong hand of Lord Artificer Omanond, and
the restoration of Inupras as the sole capital, marked
the start of the Late period (–3920 to –2488). Under
orders from Omanond, artificers created the Imaskarcana—
seven great artifacts in which the empire’s
immense magical lore was recorded for all eternity.
The elite mages of Imaskar—foremost among them
the archwizards Madryoch and Hilather—also rose to
power during this period. Three millennia before the
Netherese “discovered” the Plane of Shadow, Madryoch
the Ebon Flame was busily cataloging its dark secrets.
It was there that Madryoch crafted the Shadow Stone
and set in motion his plan to overthrow Omanond and
seize control of Imaskar. Fortunately for the empire,
the young prodigy Hilather confronted Madryoch in
the frontier fortress of Metos and ultimately trapped
the shadow lord in the Plane of Imprisonment. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2013 : 12:41:24
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This is homebrew, but based upon the lore in Dragons of Faerun of Hilather's/Halaster's Demon Shields.... its an interesting connection. May be totally unfounded
From Dragons of Faerun
"In 1266 DR, the School of Wonder was destroyed when four of the long forgotten Demonshields were recovered from an ancient barrow in the Fields of the Dead and brought back to the School of Wonder for strudy. Somehow the fiends bound within the shields were released, and they in turn summoned in a legion of their fellows after recruiting several student wizards with whispered promises of power."
From Cloak & Dagger about the Shield of the Hidden Lord from the Knights of the Shield
The Shield of the Hidden Lord, an artifact recovered from the Fields of the Dead by Lord Tithklar Illehhune in the Year of the Shining Shield (889 DR), is sacred to Gargauth the outcast, a cruel demipower who was once one of the Lords of the Nine. A round mithral shield inlaid with hundreds of tiny diamonds, emeralds, rubies, and sapphires in the shape of a snarling face, the Shield of the Hidden Lord serves as the symbol of the Knights of the Shield, having replaced the Shield of Silvam in that role.
The origin of the Shield of the Hiden Lord is unknown, although Gargauth's faithful believe that the relic is a direct manifestation of the Outcast's power. On rare occasions, Gargauth, in the guise of the Hidden Lord of the Shield, speaks directly through the Shield, causing the inlaid face to animate. Although Gargauth can employ any voice he wishe, the Hidden Lord of the Shield has always spoken with the voice of an angry beast.
Other than the fact that these two sets shields were recovered from the Fields of the Dead years apart and that both act as conduits to fiends, there's nothing to connect them. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Halaster/Hilather created the Shield of the Hidden Lord as a "Devilshield" and somehow tried to bind Gargauth to it... or perhaps some other student of Halaster tried to do so and paid the price for his pride. I do note that its said that all the demonshields were diamond shields (regarding its shape) and that at least one was made of an alloy of special ores from the Nine Hells, making it very light. The Shield of the Hidden Lord is a round mithral shield. Therefore, its very unlikely that the Shield of the Hidden Lord is actually one of the lost Demonshields.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2013 : 17:37:35
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Likely or not, its a great link and therefore "yoink" im stealing it.
We never did find out what happened to gargauth after he was released from that pit in peleveran (whatever it was called).
If Halaster was awake aroumd the time of the cult of the dragon schism then its conceivable he bound gargauth into a the shield as a test run for the demonshields. Obviously it was a very dangerous test but the threat posed by gargauths release might have necessitated it.
Unlikely without time travel: the Shield of the Hidden Lord was found in 889 while Peleveran was destroyed in 1018, the Demonshields were created in 132. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2013 : 18:35:04
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| Yeah, it wouldn't work that he was bound to the shield then. It would work that Halaster/Hilather (or a copycat apprentice) bound him though in the 100's DR. Perhaps the ritual to bind them into an item also required having them bound to the world. For instance, I could see Halaster/Hilather using bound demons in demoncysts from the Narfellian Empire for the Demoncysts. If Gargauth was penned into the endless pit as well (possibly by Imaskari?), then the Shield of the Hidden Lord would fit the same parameters. Later Gargauth gets someone to find the shield, and maybe eventually the Cult of the Dragon members that find the pit entrapping Gargauth are also members of the Knights of the Shield. That could have been what led Gargauth and the Dark Powers (Bane, Bhaal, Loviatar, and Talona) to come into conflict. It could also add an additional tie into Gargauth's interest in Imaskari magic. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 00:32:40
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Cant say im a fan of duplicating something that happened to Eltab. That was kind of a unique situation.
Now that it has been mentioned though, there is a lot about Gargauth that is unknown or doesn't add up.
I cant see how Gargauth could be linked to an item all the way in the western heartlands when he was imprisoned in a massively deep pit in the Shaar.
So first question is how did Gargauth end up in that pit. Was he there as part of his "exile" from the nine hells.
Did he escape in the destruction of Peleveran (one would think he engineered the whole thing just so that he could escape - if a humongous flight of dragons blasting apart the cliff cant free you then what can). If so then where is he now.
What is Gargauth in 1370 DR. I know it said he is a god, but i'm not sure I buy that, he only has a few worshippers linked to the inner circle of the knights of the shield and this is probably the most worshippers he has ever had. So if he is a god how did he get to be one.
If he is not a god then what is he - and how is he able to grant spells to worshippers (maybe through pacts).
How is that shield connected to Gargauth and why was it in the fields of the dead in the western heartlands while he was imprisoned in that pit.
The only link I can think of is the Shaar was Illythiir territory a long time ago and I think the fields of the dead were the site of an ancient elven massacre (maybe involving the illythiir but I have something in my mind telling me the orcs spoiled the show). Maybe the elves imprisoned Gargauth all that time ago during the crown wars.
I vaguely remember that Gargauth was from Ed's home game and was some kind of secret uber villain so maybe Ed could shed light on some of these questions (hopefully not with the dreaded abbreviation of doom).
Well, think of it this way. Gargauth was a former lord of the nine. He was cast out from the nine hells though. So, he had to go SOMEWHERE. He also killed an abyssal lord that had attained divinity, named Astaroth, and claimed his divine mantle. So, we know he was hanging out in the Abyss. What if he was on Eltab's layer whenever it was inadvertently transposed with Faerun?
To make things even more interesting, note that the Powers & Pantheons entry for Gargauth says that in 1001 DR the Cult of the Dragon members head down to find an ancient undead dragon that they called the Undying Wyrm. Then make note of the entry for Eltab in Champions of Ruin that says that the witches of Rashemen in -75 DR imprisoned Eltab beneath the Sharawood and bound a draocolich called the Everlasting Wyrm to be his guardian. The Sharawood is contained within Pelevaria. So perhaps Eltab was bound in the demoncyst that Gargauth was also bound in? Only Eltab got released by the Myrkul worshippers that formed Eltabbranar, and Gargauth didn't get freed until the Cult of the dragon freed him. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 00:46:47
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Oh, and just realizing, didn't answer all your questions. My thoughts were that the demonshields were "conduits" to beings trapped in demoncysts. Thus, all the other demoncysts were linked to demons in other demoncysts maybe near Dun-Tharos.... or maybe even in the same "demoncyst" that was in Peleveran. Maybe in agreeing to be bound to the demonshields, the demons were granted the means to free themselves from the the demoncysts and interact with the world. Maybe Halaster was surprised to find a fledgling divinity (and a devil at that) trapped in a demoncyst, and he instead created the Shield of the Hidden Lord (who is entrapped in a demoncyst of the Hidden Layer of the Abyss) as a means to draw upon Gargauth's power.
How did the shield end up in the fields of the dead? Perhaps Halaster also sold this same shield to Emperor Shoon and it was lost in the Fields of the Dead like at least 4 others in a Calishite war of aggression. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 13:30:01
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Some corrections on your (both Dazzlerdal and Sleyvas, i'll try my best with the quotes) points, the biggest one is that, as much as i like the Demoncysts and Eltab, saying that anything remotely connected to the Abyss is automatically bound to a Demoncyst is surprisingly shortsighted. The Demoncysts are just one of a thousand of ways in which demons can pop up on the Prime(s) and aren't even the most common.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I cant see how Gargauth could be linked to an item all the way in the western heartlands when he was imprisoned in a massively deep pit in the Shaar.
The Shoon Imperium was the biggest human empire of western Fearun EVER. Probably the second biggest among all the non-creator races (the Ilythiri covered more territory on their peak i think). At it's high point the Shoon Imperium stretched from the Fields of the Dead north of Baldur's Gate to modern day Tashalar and Lapalyia to the south and east past the Lake of Steam, including parts of the Shaar and the Border Kingdoms, so the link is at least believable.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
So first question is how did Gargauth end up in that pit. Was he there as part of his "exile" from the nine hells.
The means and reasons of his exile are unknown, but he was exiled out of the Nine Hells, not into the pit, he was free to roam the Planes except the Upper Planes and Baator. How he ended up inside the pit is unknown (to me at least).
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Did he escape in the destruction of Peleveran (one would think he engineered the whole thing just so that he could escape - if a humongous flight of dragons blasting apart the cliff cant free you then what can). If so then where is he now.
He escaped the pit in 1001 with the help of Tuelhalva Drakewings of the Cult of the Dragon, later, when Tuelhalva obtained the throne of Peleveria, Gargauth went to Sembia in disguise and informed the Cult of the Dragon of Tuelhalva's doings and lied saying he killed a mighty dracolich to obtain the throne. Gargauth never went back to Peleveran and we all know the fate of the city, so Gargauth simply exploited Tuelhalva hunger for power to be freed and then found a way to end his relationship with the schismatic cultists.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
What is Gargauth in 1370 DR. I know it said he is a god, but i'm not sure I buy that, he only has a few worshippers linked to the inner circle of the knights of the shield and this is probably the most worshippers he has ever had. So if he is a god how did he get to be one.
Actually Gargauth is an interesting exception to all known means of ascensions, if you have Powers & Pantheons i suggest reading his writeup (it's kinda long to copy here, but if you don't have access to the sourcebook i'll copy the relevant parts later): basically he was exiled on neutral/good terms from the Nine Hells and went on absorbing both the power/essence of fiends stranded on Toril (gated in and without means of going back or exiled or bound by archmages, ecc ...) and their cults, thus slowly building it's way in a unique manner toward godhood with his power and rank waxing and waning for a long time (he was near lesser godhood during the Harpstar Wars [1182-1222]).
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
If he is not a god then what is he - and how is he able to grant spells to worshippers (maybe through pacts).
He's a god, actually he is the only Lower Planar power with a clear and legitimate way to grant spells to his worshippers on Toril.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
How is that shield connected to Gargauth and why was it in the fields of the dead in the western heartlands while he was imprisoned in that pit.
Unknown on both counts.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The only link I can think of is the Shaar was Illythiir territory a long time ago and I think the fields of the dead were the site of an ancient elven massacre (maybe involving the illythiir but I have something in my mind telling me the orcs spoiled the show). Maybe the elves imprisoned Gargauth all that time ago during the crown wars.
The Fields of the Dead have nothing to do with elves and all to do with Calimshan's history and the Shoon Imperium. The Fields were the northern borders of the Imperium and a lot of wars (both offense and defense) were fought there during the centuries, thus leading to the name and the fame (with farmers still uncovering bones, corpses, rusted weapons and armors and lost treasures, no undeads roaming here).
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I vaguely remember that Gargauth was from Ed's home game and was some kind of secret uber villain so maybe Ed could shed light on some of these questions (hopefully not with the dreaded abbreviation of doom).
I think that's because the first Realmsian mention of Gargauth is as the "wild baatezu Gargoth" that was enlisted by Banites in a strike against the Harpers at the Sign of the Singin Harp Inn in 1022 (the strike went bad because Elminster and Khelben trapped the place and were in full battle glory and Gargoth fled leaving the Banites to their doom, but the inn was destroyed regardless and any attempt to rebuild it met violent ends). (Info on this in Code of the Harpers and Powers & Pantheons)
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
He was cast out from the nine hells though. So, he had to go SOMEWHERE. He also killed an abyssal lord that had attained divinity, named Astaroth, and claimed his divine mantle. So, we know he was hanging out in the Abyss.
He wandered the Planes and even the Abyss but he killed Astaroth on Toril, were he could annihilate him thanks to some kind of unique power Gargauth has (that lets him grow strong leeching power from dead rivals on Toril) and absorbed his cultist base. Astaroth wasn't a god, and Gargauth didn't claim his mantle, Gargauth stealed a portion of his power by annihilating Astaroth and then stealed his cultists too, thus going so high in power to "taste godhood".
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
To make things even more interesting, note that the Powers & Pantheons entry for Gargauth says that in 1001 DR the Cult of the Dragon members head down to find an ancient undead dragon that they called the Undying Wyrm.
Incorrect. Tuelhalva was sent to investigate word of an unspecified ancient undead dragon in the catacombs of Peleveran, not sent specifically after the Everlasting Wyrm of the Sharawood. Seeing how things turned out, it's not impossible that Gargauthan spies used the true rumors about the Everlasting Wyrm and warped them to get powerful archmages (those employed by the Cult of the Dragon) within "whispering range" of Gargauth to free him.
Last notes on the Democyst/Eltab connections: i don't see where it is said that there was a demoncyst beneath the Sharawood, the Witches simply bound Eltab there, "beneath the forest floor", kinda like old style imprison spells and the like. The Demoncysts are a phenomenon strictly connected to the Nar Empire and to the demon lands of north-eastern Faerun and saying there was one under the Sharawood is a stretch. Saying then that Halaster bound demons from Demoncysts inside the Demonshields is another stretch, seeing how he worked at the Demonshields in modern day Amn (Emirate of Torsil in the Calishar Emirates that became Amn) and employed portals to the Abyss, plenty of demons there without the need to go to the demonlands of Faerun or finding convoluted ways to get to the Democysts that, from what i understood about them, are removed from the Abyss and bound to Toril becoming parts of the environment of the Prime Material Plane. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 15:44:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Some corrections on your (both Dazzlerdal and Sleyvas, i'll try my best with the quotes) points, the biggest one is that, as much as i like the Demoncysts and Eltab, saying that anything remotely connected to the Abyss is automatically bound to a Demoncyst is surprisingly shortsighted. The Demoncysts are just one of a thousand of ways in which demons can pop up on the Prime(s) and aren't even the most common.
<snip>
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
He was cast out from the nine hells though. So, he had to go SOMEWHERE. He also killed an abyssal lord that had attained divinity, named Astaroth, and claimed his divine mantle. So, we know he was hanging out in the Abyss.
He wandered the Planes and even the Abyss but he killed Astaroth on Toril, were he could annihilate him thanks to some kind of unique power Gargauth has (that lets him grow strong leeching power from dead rivals on Toril) and absorbed his cultist base. Astaroth wasn't a god, and Gargauth didn't claim his mantle, Gargauth stealed a portion of his power by annihilating Astaroth and then stealed his cultists too, thus going so high in power to "taste godhood".
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
To make things even more interesting, note that the Powers & Pantheons entry for Gargauth says that in 1001 DR the Cult of the Dragon members head down to find an ancient undead dragon that they called the Undying Wyrm.
Incorrect. Tuelhalva was sent to investigate word of an unspecified ancient undead dragon in the catacombs of Peleveran, not sent specifically after the Everlasting Wyrm of the Sharawood. Seeing how things turned out, it's not impossible that Gargauthan spies used the true rumors about the Everlasting Wyrm and warped them to get powerful archmages (those employed by the Cult of the Dragon) within "whispering range" of Gargauth to free him.
Last notes on the Democyst/Eltab connections: i don't see where it is said that there was a demoncyst beneath the Sharawood, the Witches simply bound Eltab there, "beneath the forest floor", kinda like old style imprison spells and the like. The Demoncysts are a phenomenon strictly connected to the Nar Empire and to the demon lands of north-eastern Faerun and saying there was one under the Sharawood is a stretch. Saying then that Halaster bound demons from Demoncysts inside the Demonshields is another stretch, seeing how he worked at the Demonshields in modern day Amn (Emirate of Torsil in the Calishar Emirates that became Amn) and employed portals to the Abyss, plenty of demons there without the need to go to the demonlands of Faerun or finding convoluted ways to get to the Democysts that, from what i understood about them, are removed from the Abyss and bound to Toril becoming parts of the environment of the Prime Material Plane.
I'm not saying that anything related to the abyss is automatically related to a demoncyst. I'm just saying that perhaps the special nature of these demonshields may require "entrapped" or "bound" demons in some form. After all, the "special nature" of these demonshields are what make them something that would draw wizards from all over Faerun to try and get one should it become available. If you could bind any old demon, it wouldn't be that hard to figure out. It could be that genies that are to be entrapped in bottles may have similar requirements (i.e some extradimensional dwelling place be created that they are bound to). Since these demonshields were created barely 250 years following the fall of Narfell, perhaps Hilather/Halaster took advantage of something that few individuals actually knew about (since many of the Narfellian wizards involved were killed in the final acts of the war).
On where Astaroth was killed, where did you get that he was killed specifically on Toril? Not saying he was or wasn't, but it makes more sense for a Abyssal lord turned divinity to be killed on his home plane. The only entries I see for him in P&P and the Well of Darkness Adventure in Dungeon #148 make no mention of WHERE he was killed. The entry in P&P indicates that the death of Astaroth "gave Gargauth his first taste of godhood".
Not that it makes any difference in the story I'm laying out. I agree Gargauth wandered around. What we do know is that he wasn't in the nine hells. Who is to say he wasn't on Eltab's layer when it was mixed with the realms and thus became entrapped? He may have been infiltrating the Abyss posing as Astaroth or someone else. He may have been in some kind of negotiations with Eltab. Hell, maybe even Fraz'Urb'Luu knew that Gargauth was entreating with Eltab and arranged his son, the nentyarch of Narfell, to create the demoncysts in order to imprison them both (or at least Gargauth, as Gargauth and Fraz both deal with deception to a degree).... or perhaps Fraz was also involved and betrayed by his own son?
In the end, it could work that there is at least one demoncyst beneath where Peleveran was and that this demoncyst was the endless pit that entrapped Gargauth (after all, we have demoncysts even as far as the Priador). However, even if it doesn't, we have the same general idea... Gargauth was trapped.. the shield is a conduit to his entrapped presence.
Another entirely different idea is that Halaster/Hilather wasn't binding demons that were entrapped somehow in some weird planar anomaly. Maybe he was using Vestiges of demons and devils (who are entrapped in another way)? Maybe somehow Hilather bound the vestige of Astaroth to the Shield of the Hidden Lord, and Gargauth is using his own linkage to Astaroth to hijack the link to sometimes animate the shield. The one interesting point here is that the 4 demonshields that were destroyed supposedly freed their entrapped prisoners, so if it were vestiges.... kind of scary.
Anyway, the base idea was that it seemed odd that at least 4 of the demonshields and the Shield of the Hidden Lord were all found on the Fields of the Dead... and so perhaps they had some kind of similar origin through Halaster/Hilather. The base idea has merit, and I'm sure we could work through details to make a good plot.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 16:46:25
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This is another thread I'm going to have to go over with a fine tooth-comb - some good stuff here. 
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The only link I can think of is the Shaar was Illythiir territory a long time ago and I think the fields of the dead were the site of an ancient elven massacre (maybe involving the illythiir but I have something in my mind telling me the orcs spoiled the show). Maybe the elves imprisoned Gargauth all that time ago during the crown wars.
The Fields of the Dead have nothing to do with elves and all to do with Calimshan's history and the Shoon Imperium. The Fields were the northern borders of the Imperium and a lot of wars (both offense and defense) were fought there during the centuries, thus leading to the name and the fame (with farmers still uncovering bones, corpses, rusted weapons and armors and lost treasures, no undeads roaming here).
He may have been thinking of The High Moor, where the Miyeritari were slaughtered by The Dark Disaster. That was caused by Gold Elves, Not Dark Elves (the Dark Elves were the victims, actually, along with their Green-elf cousins).
The Shoon Imperium did indeed extend FAR north - an area of 'the Backlands' was even considered a duchy or some-such of theirs, at one point. I still don't understand how a fairly weak and new-born Cormyr beat the crap out of one of the most powerful empires in Realms history.
The Shaar was the Ilythiir 'stomping grounds', but much of it was covered with forest at that time (and the northern reaches of it held at least three green-elf kingdoms, which lends credence to my theory that 'Dark elves' were really nothing more then a southern branch of wild {green} elves - that modern-day green elves and drow were originally all part of a larger Grugach ethnic group, which would have been nearly all green elves at that time.) It was the High/Eladrin Elves who brought civilization with them. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Dec 2013 04:09:02 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 20:27:08
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'm not saying that anything related to the abyss is automatically related to a demoncyst. I'm just saying that perhaps the special nature of these demonshields may require "entrapped" or "bound" demons in some form. After all, the "special nature" of these demonshields are what make them something that would draw wizards from all over Faerun to try and get one should it become available. If you could bind any old demon, it wouldn't be that hard to figure out. It could be that genies that are to be entrapped in bottles may have similar requirements (i.e some extradimensional dwelling place be created that they are bound to). Since these demonshields were created barely 250 years following the fall of Narfell, perhaps Hilather/Halaster took advantage of something that few individuals actually knew about (since many of the Narfellian wizards involved were killed in the final acts of the war).
The biggest problems i have with this are two:
1- the means of creation of the Demonshields are written in the writeup for Kuraltaar in Dragons of Faerun and there's no mention of anything Narfellian or to the Demoncysts;
2- Hilater/Halaster was in temporal stasis from -2488 to 128 so i don't see were he could've gained his knowledge about Narfell and the Demoncysts.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On where Astaroth was killed, where did you get that he was killed specifically on Toril? Not saying he was or wasn't, but it makes more sense for a Abyssal lord turned divinity to be killed on his home plane. The only entries I see for him in P&P and the Well of Darkness Adventure in Dungeon #148 make no mention of WHERE he was killed. The entry in P&P indicates that the death of Astaroth "gave Gargauth his first taste of godhood".
I say he was killed on Toril because in Powers & Pantheons it clearly says that Gargauth's modus operandi was to kill fiends on Toril and leech both their power/essence and their followers/cultists. I still think Astaroth wasn't divine, he was powerfull but not enough to survive Gargauth's assault and Gargauth went divine with the boost gained from killing Astaroth and absorbing his cultists.
I find it way more believable for an abyssal lord stranded on Toril to be permanently killed by an outcast baatezu than for an outcast baatezu to go to the Abyss and bitch-slap an abyssal lord turned divine in his home plane (even if not on his Layer, any abyssal lord is at an advantage against any baatezu in the Abyss).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Not that it makes any difference in the story I'm laying out. I agree Gargauth wandered around. What we do know is that he wasn't in the nine hells. Who is to say he wasn't on Eltab's layer when it was mixed with the realms and thus became entrapped? He may have been infiltrating the Abyss posing as Astaroth or someone else. He may have been in some kind of negotiations with Eltab. Hell, maybe even Fraz'Urb'Luu knew that Gargauth was entreating with Eltab and arranged his son, the nentyarch of Narfell, to create the demoncysts in order to imprison them both (or at least Gargauth, as Gargauth and Fraz both deal with deception to a degree).... or perhaps Fraz was also involved and betrayed by his own son?
This is where i invoke Occam's Razor and say that there are too much exceptional and highly unlikely (more like impossible) events to be believable. We are talking about baatezu and tanar'ri in full blown Blood War, not a dignitary or diplomatic envoy from some human kingdom paying a visit to some important political figure of another human kingdom.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Another entirely different idea is that Halaster/Hilather wasn't binding demons that were entrapped somehow in some weird planar anomaly. Maybe he was using Vestiges of demons and devils (who are entrapped in another way)? Maybe somehow Hilather bound the vestige of Astaroth to the Shield of the Hidden Lord, and Gargauth is using his own linkage to Astaroth to hijack the link to sometimes animate the shield. The one interesting point here is that the 4 demonshields that were destroyed supposedly freed their entrapped prisoners, so if it were vestiges.... kind of scary.
Aren't vestiges dead-only? I don't know, i know little about them, aren't they kind of spiritual remnants of dead beings? I don't know if the destruction of a vestige's vessel can resurrect the vestigial being, the demons that destroyed the School of Wonder were alive and kicking (and calling buddies to kick even more) after being freed from the shields.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Anyway, the base idea was that it seemed odd that at least 4 of the demonshields and the Shield of the Hidden Lord were all found on the Fields of the Dead... and so perhaps they had some kind of similar origin through Halaster/Hilather. The base idea has merit, and I'm sure we could work through details to make a good plot.
Undoubtely the idea has merit, i'll try looking in all the good old 2e sourcebooks to find more hints and bits to throw at the discussion.
Eh ... hey i may just have to pull the stick out of my arse here ... while writing i decided to check a thing just to be sure and you know what i found? In the Kuraltaar writeup in Dragons of Faerun is said that the Demonshields were the official response of the Shoon Imperium to repeated problems with demons gone mad in the Calishar Emirates, and you know who else worked to put a stop to the demonic onslaught? The church of Anachtyr, how? By creating three demonsbane shields, rings any bell? Kimeltaar, Naelotaar and Dizeltaar, the three demonsbane shields used by Impiltur's Princes to finally send Ndulu and his army back to the Abyss ... interesting. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 20:29:34
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| Uh i don't know why but each time i do multiquotes the posts got messed up and the quotes and the things i write under them get shuffled around, hope what i wrote still makes sense (the find about the demonsbane shields should be at the bottom of my post). |
Edited by - Demzer on 01 Dec 2013 20:31:15 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 01:27:38
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Yeah, that's why I try to stay away from multi-quotes.
On the part about Gargauth being in the abyss and that being a problem with the blood war. Remember, he's an exiled Baatezu lord. The Abyssal Lords may see that as grounds enough to at least entreat with him. They may see him as a rogue mercenary for hire as a result.... or they may let him have a place to stay in return for simple fealty in case of invasion (and Gargauth will typically stick to the letter of a contract, unlike most demons). Or hell, he may have been playing diplomat between two abyssal lords as a somewhat trustworthy intermediary.
However, you just threw out the argument that makes me truly wonder. Was Hilather actually freed in 128 DR? It states he began exploring Faerun that year. However, in this same year, he settled down and built a tower all the way across the world in Calimshan. Granted, at the time, this was probably the closest thing he could find to his Imaskari Empire. But, I'd imagine he studied the world a bit prior to making the move, maybe via scrying. Also, what was one of the nearest countries? There were Mulhorand and Unther, both theocracies that he would have hated. Then there was the theocracy of Eltabrannar, a kingdom devoted to the worship of Myrkul, but with Eltab at its head. I'd imagine that it was members of this theocracy that may have freed Hilather, and he may have learned of the demoncysts from Eltab himself. In fact, Hilather may have fled from Eltabrannar to Caliimshan in an attempt to protect himself from becoming a pawn of Eltab's. In talking with Eltab, he may have learned of demoncysts and Gargauth being imprisoned nearby in the endless pit (whether the endless pit be demoncyst or not can be up for debate). There is the option that Gargauth was imprisoned by the Imaskari as an option, as well. Maybe Hilather simply travelled to the endless pit to try and make some kind of "devilshield" by binding the vestige of Astaroth OR the real Gargauth to the Shield of the Hidden Lord.
128 DR Year of the Addled Arcanist
The Raurinese wizard Hilather [–2488, 132], after millennia trapped in temporal stasis, begins to explore Faerűn. He is hired by the Imperial Court to develop a more secure means of binding fiends to the will of their summoners. He establishes himself in an abandoned tower in the remote emirate of Torsil, which lies along the Sword Coast between the Cloud Peaks and Candlekeep.
Anyway, the endless pit and the research into the wells of darkness brought back an old wonder. I'd wondered if Gargauth had been entrapped in a Toril bound "well of darkness" that held a planar tear to shattered night (see dungeon #148, wells of darkness, page 63). It would kind of explain why it was called an endless pit, and since these special planar tears aren't confined to just the abyss.... why couldn't there be one on Toril? In fact, what if the special planar tear that Hilather created beneath his tower in Calimshan was a similar link to the 73rd layer of the abyss (aka the Well of Darkness).
Yeah, I saw the part about the three shields in Eltab's entry, and it even more made me think there's some linkage. The names of the shields are very similar to the demonshields. That three of them could be used to make a vortex portal of some sort is also interesting. Where is the part about the church of Anachtyr and creating three demonsbane shields from? I'm kind of wondering... could those have been demonshields that were "redeemed" by the holy power of Anachtyr?
786 DR Year of the Moaning Gorge
The Battle of Moaning Gorge: Ndulu’s army is met by the great-grandsons of King Sarshel at the mouth of a gorge that leads deep into the Earthspurs, just outside the gates of the Citadel of Conjurers. Employing three shields—Kimeltaar, Naelotaar, and Dizeltaaar—and the sword Demonbane, the Paladin Princes form a vortex portal and through it drive Ndulu [731] and his horde back into the Abyss. Crown Prince Essys and Prince Araln are slain in the fighting. Nord, the youngest of the three, is named crown prince
and heir to the throne.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 01:36:23
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Oh, and if those 3 particular shields were redeemed by the holy power of Anachtyr and PERHAPS tied to demons tied in a demoncyst in Impiltur, might they have had some means to "send back" or "somehow control" that demoncyst. Could they have somehow opened the path to a demoncyst from the hidden layer of the abyss and forced the demons into it? Could Ndulu be thus trapped and awaiting Eltab releasing him?
Also, just one other niggling thing in regards the well of darkness. It was a big thing where Ahazu's cultists were taking demon and devil lords and turning them into vestiges by bringing them to the well of darkness layer of the abyss and trapping them in "shattered night". Then they overreached and they tried to entrap... Orcus... who plays into so much lore regarding Narfell. This from dungeon #148. Not sure if it might fit into anything, but interesting. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 04:07:01
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I like the idea of the Dark Pit being a planar rift/tear. Nice one sleyvas.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 09:41:07
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Well Sleyvas, your idea about planar tears and Halaster has some support. I found this quote in the write up for Kuraltaar the Demonshield
quote:
In the catacombs beneath his newly
appropriated tower, the Raurinese wizard either located or created
a planar breach between the Material Plane and the Abyss.
Drawing on the large body of genie lore that had been developed
by Calishite sorcerers over the centuries and the process for
creating a mirror of life trapping, he devised a process whereby
he could summon all manner of nether beings and permanently
bind them into physical objects.
So looks like Halaster might have spent the early portion of his reawakening looking for planar tears as part of his research into binding fiends.
It does link Halaster's work to rampaging fiends in the far flung colonies of the Shoon empire so maybe Gargauth was one such fiend that was rampaging (i dont recall if the Shaar ever came under Shoon jurisdiction or not).
Now back to the shield of the hidden lord. I found this quote in the writeup for it.
quote:
the sages and lore masters who are aware of its existence suspect that it might have been first used in a battle on the Fields of the Dead. Crafted from pure mithral, the shield is inlaid with hundreds of tiny diamonds, emeralds, rubies, and sapphires that form the shape of a snarling, bestial face.
So wherever and whenever it was made it was hidden from the rest of the realms and not used until either the battle between the ophidians of Najara and the Shadowking (of Ebon-something) or the battle between Valashar and Cormyr. Probably the later one, so the shield may have only been forged or discovered a few years before that event.
Now reading through Gargauth's entry in powers and pantheons it does say he was exiled and spent many eons wandering the planes particularly the material plane, centred on Toril where. It then says at one point during his travels he defeated Astaroth, a tanar'ri lord of great power and appropriated his worship giving him his first taste of godhood.
Now this bit is slightly ambiguous. It doesnt say where he encountered Astaroth, but since Gargauth spent most of his time on the world of Abeir Toril it is a good bet he encountered him there. It also doesnt say whether Astaroth ruled his own layer of the abyss, only that he was a powerful tanar'ri lord. So Astaroth may well have been called to Toril and had set up his own mini kingdom in Toril which Gargauth found. It also doesnt say that Astaroth was destroyed, only defeated, so maybe Gargauth killed him on the material plane and banished him to the Abyss for 1001 years (or however long they were banished for). Then it states this gave Gargauth his first taste of godhood but not that he became a god (that comes later) so this was probably the first instance of Gargauth killing a fiend and taking his worshippers which gave him a bit of a power boost and helped him form his plan.
Now shortly after 1022 DR, the battle at the Silver Sign of the Harp inn in Sembia (where the harpers congregated after their reformation) it states Gargauth ascended to demigod status after centuries of "permanently destroying" baatezu that had entered Faerun in person, he then absorbed their power and cultists worship.
So Astaroth may have been killed somewhere between 23DR and 822 DR (because it says centuries and not millenia) which kind of puts us in the time frame for fiends rampaging across the Shoon empire and prompting the creation of Kuraltaar and the other demonsbane shields.
So perhaps the whole Astaroth, binding of Gargauth, forging of the demonsbane shields, and Halaster are all connected.
Maybe the shield of the hidden lord was one such demonsbane shield created by Halaster to fight the rampaging fiends wandering the Shoon colonies, maybe his most powerful shield. The wielder of the shield (doesnt have to be Halaster since it was said that these shields were given to generals of the Shoon empire) bound a portion of Gargauth's essence into the shield and went a wandering with it only to die during the battle between Shoon and Cormyr.
Meanwhile Peleveran was the centre of Gargauth's empire and his primary residence on Toril, he had dwelled there so long a planar tear had formed linking Toril to Nessus (its a really deep trench after all, almost endless in fact), when the Demonsbane shield was used on Gargauth it couldnt contain all his essence and so the remainder was imprisoned in this planar breach or tear. Now it is stated that Tuelhalva spent two decades working on a spell to release Gargauth so maybe he was working to undo Halaster's binding spells (that would take a lot of time even for an archmage).
One last curious thing from Gargauth's entry was that the final paragraph of his history states he plots to eventually recover all his lost lands.
This kind of supports Gargauth having a mini empire, Peleveran may have been one such city and so the kingdom of Peleveria may have belonged to him, it is well hidden in the side of a cliff i believe and that would be fitting for the hidden lord.
It may have been a kingdom hidden within the Shoon empire and the source of many of the fiends that rampaged throughout the Shoon empire at the time of the forging of the demonsbane shields. I'm not quite sure how Peleveria is tied into Astaroth but perhaps Gargauth slew him there and created the kingdom and city to commemorate his victory, or maybe he robbed it from Astaroth who created the kingdom first.
Anyway, ramblings over |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 14:49:45
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We do have a ROUGH idea where Peleveria was from Shining South pg 174, and it actually mentions the Dark Pit / Endless Pit. It actually overlaps somewhat with the area where Eltab was bound, and where the earlier theocracy of Eltabranar arose. Your mentions of Gargauth wandering the realms taking out demons makes me wonder something. Did the Endless Pit/Dark Pit of Maleficence exist possibly during the times of Imaskar, and the description that "sages suspect it opens to Baator" is actually wrong and it instead opens onto Shattered Night (like the wells of darkness)? Did Gargauth go after Eltab and Eltab defeated Gargauth (who as you point out was not a god yet)? However, perhaps Eltab had discovered the Dark Pit and decided to imprison Gargauth in it? Hell, for all we know, what if Gargauth had been making use of the Dark Pit himself imprisoning devils there so that they were eventually absorbed and became vestiges (after all, from the wells of darkness, we know that he must have deposited Astaroth in one such pit on the 73rd layer of the abyss (aka wells of darkness layer)). Read through the below and show me my flaws
1st) at some point after 106 DR and before 128 DR, followers of Myrkul from the Theocracy of Eltabranar are sent to delve into Imaskari military stronghold ruins in the nearby Giant's Belt Mountains. They free an Imaskari archmage named Hilather. Hilather is intrigued by the stories of this new being who had risen to godhood from being a mortal, as well as the stories of a society ruled by a demon lord. Hilather is also amazed to discover that his Imaskari brethren are dead and that the Mulan peoples have risen to forge their religion driven empires just to the north of where he "slept" for millennia. Deciding that he may be able to raise an army from this theocracy of Eltabranar to attack the nearby Mulhorandi and Untheric empires, he offers his aid to Eltab while he learns more of this new world.
2nd) Gargauth attacks Eltab. Hilather aids Eltab and tips the tide. They entrap Gargauth in the Dark Pit of Maleficence.
3rd) Hilather begins work on the "devilshield" which is linked to the entrapped devil-in-exile Gargauth. Hilather also begins gathering information on demoncysts and Eltab's hidden layer.
4th) Eltab and Gargauth have a falling out, primarily because Gargauth fears the growing power of Hilather in his empire.
128 DR - Hilather flees to the empire of Shoon and builds a tower. Using knowledge of demoncysts, Hilather channels the energy of the destruction of several demoncysts to create a planar tear to shattered night. He then implants thirteen captured demons from the aforementioned demoncysts into this planar tear and ties them to the creation of his 13 demonshields over the next four years.
Peleveran
The ruins of this ancient city are built into the side of the Landrise, very near the point where the River Shaar emerges from the subterranean portion of its journey. Peleveran was once the capital of an ancient kingdom called Peleveria, which stretched across the plains connecting the Landrise, the Firesteaps, and the Shaarwood. The city was destroyed in the Year of the Dracorage (1018 DR), when it became the site of a devastating conflict between two warring factions of the Cult of the Dragon.
A temple known as the Dark Pit of Maleficence, dedicated to the demigod Gargauth, is hidden deep in the tunnels and caverns beneath the city, inside an immense cavern that once served the city as a granary. At the very bottom of the temple is a nearly bottomless pit that sages suspect connects directly to Baator via a portal.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 14:53:47
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| Oh, and on the above idea, perhaps Hilather/Halaster had something to do with the eventual invasion of Eltabranar on southern Unther and Mulhorand in 202 DR. Not sure how, but it would seem to fit an Imaskari wizard's sense of revenge. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 15:45:29
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damn can't leave it alone
Something happens to make Hilather/Halaster leave behind his tower in Calimshan. He leaves behind the Shield of the Hidden Lord aka Devilshield. Its picked up by a Calishite noble. Somehow it ends up on the fields of the dead like at least 4 demonshields.
In 889 DR, Lord Tithklar Illehhune finds the Shield of the Hidden Lord on the Fields of the Dead. (as an aside, the Illehhune family MAY share ilythiiri blood due to some notes in GHotR under -10000 DR, descent of the drow). The
I'd imagine the Knights of the Shield begin feeding information to Gargauth through the shield. When Gargauth learns of a new cult forming called the Cult of the Dragon that worships undead dragons, he sees the means of his release. Gargauth informs the Knights of the Shield that they must pass information on to this burgeoning cult, which they do as the group is becoming powerful information brokers. The Knights tell cult members of the "Everlasting Wyrm" dracolich but the information is twisted to have Tuelhalva Drakewings find the Dark Pit of Maleficence. Entrapped within the pit is not only Gargauth, but many other devils who were entrapped by the Imaskari Empire. Tuelhalva Drakewings spends two decades casting a ritual to free the devils (and the ritual is designed to only free beings of Baator/Nine Hells who are entrapped). Gargauth is freed. The devils serve Tuelhalva and take over Peleveria. Gargauth informs the Cult that Tuelhalva assaulted the Everlasting Wyrm. Cult of the Dragon internal war.
Upon Gargauth's release, the Shield of the Hidden Lord has much less power in combat, but it still retains some of its prior magic. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 16:56:19
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Reading Eltab's history, i find it curious that in every note of his imprisonment it mentions that it was a demoncyst used to imprison him in.
Apart from when the witches of Rashemen tracked him to the Sharawood and imprisoned him beneath it.
Kind of says to me they had to find some other way to imprison him (after all why would Eltab hide near a demoncyst if he knows he can be imprisoned in them so easily), what are the chances that a demoncyst exists all the way south in the one place Eltab chose to flee to, its seems too easy.
It is just a shame that the Sharawood and Pelevaran are so far away, it would be so much better if they were nearby and Eltab and Gargauth occupied the same endless pit at different times.
Anyway. Astaroth may well have been a powerful tanar'ri lord in service to Eltab. After all Eltab has 99 years of servitude to the theocracy of Eltabranar, stands to reason he would summon a few demons to his side (or more likely whisper some words of persuasion in a few priestly ears and get them to call them to the realms).
Eltab is known to have many powerful Balors serve him on his plane (Ndulu being one) so Astaroth may have been a contemporary of Ndulu. Balors are awesomely powerful and Gargauth draining one of them is going to boost his power quite considerably.
I'm not so sure of Eltabranar and Gargauth's realm existing at the same time - the dwarves of Underholme might have noted down an unholy war going on on their doorstep - after all demons and devils cant help but continue the bloodwar everywhere they go.
But there is nothing to say Halaster did not spend some time in Eltabranar studying demons, before it fell to Mulhorand and Unther. Then Astaroth heads west and sets up hidden Peleveria in a cliff face and along comes Gargauth and drains him dry. Halaster also happens to be in Peleveria at some point and binds him to the endless pit.
Hmmm, I may have miswrote something if you think I said Gargauth ever had a realm. He didn't. He had cults and he hunted down fiends for their power. Peleveria was just a follow up country that would seem to encompass roughly the same areas as the previous Eltabranar, but 8 centuries separate the two. When Peleveria formed, don't know. What happened in between Peleveria and Eltabranar would require some research.
The facts that we know are that Gargauth "killed" Astaroth, but we also know that Astaroth is now a vestige. Astaroth is actually imprisoned in the Wells of Darkness (73rd layer of the abyss) which has these "wells" that have links to "shattered night". He continually is trying to be resurrected by the Abyss, but Gargauth set hellfire into the well that consumes him before he can reform. This layer is used as a kind of prison, and it used to be used by followers of Ahazu to turn beings into vestiges. Astaroth had actually made some kind of agreement with Ahazu to let his body be imprisoned here after he died so that he could safely reform (a fact which Gargauth twisted). This information is found in Dungeon #148, page 66.
Perhaps after learning of the wells of darkness through killing Astaroth he began searching out similar planar anomalies on Toril, and he found one in the Dark Pit of Maleficence. Maybe he "stored" many fiendish beings in this Pit over the years. Maybe he fought Eltab there, but he was the loser for once and found himself imprisoned (possibly due to Hilather's involvement). Hell, maybe Eltab learned of many demons being stored there, because the planar tear to shattered night (aka the Dark Pit of Maleficence) was actually an accidental creation of the Imaskari and Hilather told Eltab of it.
"http://www.scribd.com/doc/38835505/Tome-of-Magic-Additional-Vestige-Collection-v2-1-2"
Interestingly enough.... Astaroth's form sounds surprisingly like a race of beings mentioned in GHotR (both feathered and draconic). Not sure what to make of that at all. Perhaps the battle between Astaroth and Gargauth was LONG ago.
Manifestation:
Astaroth’s misty form rises up from his seal like a cloud of steam, slowly condensing into theform of a handsome human with draconic and feathered wings. His serpentine tongue flicks nervously as hisbody is slowly consumed with hellfire.
From GHotR, page 7
The last entry in the journal records a remarkable find. Far to the north, hovering above an ice-filled bay, Eartharran discovered an apparently abandoned floating city. During a brief exploration of the place with his crew, the captain sketched several examples of the remarkable statuary they found. From his drawings, it appears that
the city must once have been inhabited by a humanoid race with both draconic and avian features— that is, scales and feathers. The captain openly speculates as to whether the aearee, as he called
these creatures, were the descendants of great wyrms who had evolved avian characteristics, or the forebears of both the draconic and the avian races. The captain’s entry ends with a brief note that he and his crew were forced to flee back to their ship to escape a wing of wyrms that had suddenly appeared on the horizon. I can only guess at the fate of Eartharran and his crew, but the discovery of a broken
black dragon scale amid the wreckage of the ship suggests that their journey met a violent end. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 17:04:20
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I always thought that Eltab himself engineered the downfall of Eltabranar. He was bound to their service for 99 years and probably unable to do them direct harm, but whispering how mighty and invincible they are and how much he would be able to help them they get all over confident and declare war on Mulhorand.
Eltab then comes up against Anhur and was hoping to do a runner but he didnt count on Hadryllis and being bound to a demoncyst again.
Eltabranar dies and Eltab's service is conveniently over as he planned all along, unfortunately he is stuck beneath Thaymount.
True, he may have seen the means to create himself an empire and sought to expand. Hilather may have worked both ends there (or he may not have been involved at all and just watched happily), possibly encouraging the two empires to fight and possibly crush one another. After all, the mulan peoples probably didn't like the theocracy of Eltabranar (especially if as I've supposed in some other threads a month or two back that Myrkul may have been involved with the Theurgist Adepts a few millennia prior). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 21:09:23
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Damn, i turn my head for a day and you run off with all this juicy speculation!
Going in order from my last post (and avoiding nasty multiquote shuffle-effects):
1 - The three Demonsbane shields were created by the church of Anachtyr in 44 DR to aid paladin champions in battling fiends in the Calishar Emirates (modern day Amn and southern Sword Coast) [Source Dragons of Faerun, page 135, starting at line 13 from the top of the page]. Excluding that someone created three shields with the exact same names, these are the same three shields used by Impilturan Princes in 786 to banish Ndulu. The thirteen Demonshields were created by Halaster/Hilather in 132 DR and at this point we have sixteen shields made to battle/control demons, divided in two subsets (3 from Anachtyr's faithful and 13 from Halaster).
2 - Gargauth's relation with Astaroth is way more interesting than just "they met under the moonlight and only one walked away". Actually it was Astaroth that infiltrated the Hells and Gargauth was tasked with his destruction. More informations are in Eric L. Boyd's article on Dragon Magazine 357 called Savage Tidings: Gazing into the Abyss, i'll post a question about this story in Eric's thread here at the 'Keep but he hasn't been active since last year it seems.
3 - For me, the effects of "Shattered Night" and it's wondrous binding powers are way too effective to let any "mere" archwizard mess with them and release/bind fiends at will with it (we are talking about godly beings trapped there for eons and with no means of escape, i'm really reluctant to have Halaster casually stop by for 4 years and succeeding were gods and archfiends failed for eons). I find it way more believable that, if Halaster indeed knew about the 73rd Layer, he just experimented tossing fiends in the pools and noting/studying the results with all the magical investigation means at his disposal. Four years later he was able to devise some new binding ritual inspired by his studies of "Shattered Night".
4 - Astaroth was a unique demon, deeply involved with the Blood War and called "Diabolus" by his fellows because he could infiltrate the Hells without risks. He got to the rank of "treasure of Hell", a rank reserved for the greater unique devils that work directly with Asmodeus, then Gargauth discovered him and forced him out of the Hells. Astaroth retreated to the Abyss and started to gather cultists on various Primes, [start of personal musing] on one of these Primes, Toril, Gargauth finally caught up with Astaroth [end of personal musing] and Gargauth killed him (probably with hellfire). At this point, since Astaroth made a pact with Ahazu, his body was bound inside one of the Wells of Darkness (Source Dragon Magazine 357, except for the personal musing). Oh and on his appearance i would be cautious in linking it to any race: unique demons and devils have all kind of weird appendages/wings/tails/claws/pincers/whatever with layers of scaly/feathered/whatever skin attached without actually having any relation to similarly shaped races/monsters.
5 - The idea that Hilather got caught up with Eltab and the Myrkulites and started catching up on all the Realms changes while playing demon-binder on the side is intriguing and interesting at the same time. As is very interesting the notion that the Dark Pit was/is a planar tear/rift, seeing how Halaster was(is?) deeply into planar and conjuration/summoning/binding magic and gates/portals (i mean, just look at Undermountain!) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2013 : 02:02:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Damn, i turn my head for a day and you run off with all this juicy speculation!
Going in order from my last post (and avoiding nasty multiquote shuffle-effects):
1 - The three Demonsbane shields were created by the church of Anachtyr in 44 DR to aid paladin champions in battling fiends in the Calishar Emirates (modern day Amn and southern Sword Coast) [Source Dragons of Faerun, page 135, starting at line 13 from the top of the page]. Excluding that someone created three shields with the exact same names, these are the same three shields used by Impilturan Princes in 786 to banish Ndulu. The thirteen Demonshields were created by Halaster/Hilather in 132 DR and at this point we have sixteen shields made to battle/control demons, divided in two subsets (3 from Anachtyr's faithful and 13 from Halaster).
2 - Gargauth's relation with Astaroth is way more interesting than just "they met under the moonlight and only one walked away". Actually it was Astaroth that infiltrated the Hells and Gargauth was tasked with his destruction. More informations are in Eric L. Boyd's article on Dragon Magazine 357 called Savage Tidings: Gazing into the Abyss, i'll post a question about this story in Eric's thread here at the 'Keep but he hasn't been active since last year it seems.
3 - For me, the effects of "Shattered Night" and it's wondrous binding powers are way too effective to let any "mere" archwizard mess with them and release/bind fiends at will with it (we are talking about godly beings trapped there for eons and with no means of escape, i'm really reluctant to have Halaster casually stop by for 4 years and succeeding were gods and archfiends failed for eons). I find it way more believable that, if Halaster indeed knew about the 73rd Layer, he just experimented tossing fiends in the pools and noting/studying the results with all the magical investigation means at his disposal. Four years later he was able to devise some new binding ritual inspired by his studies of "Shattered Night".
4 - Astaroth was a unique demon, deeply involved with the Blood War and called "Diabolus" by his fellows because he could infiltrate the Hells without risks. He got to the rank of "treasure of Hell", a rank reserved for the greater unique devils that work directly with Asmodeus, then Gargauth discovered him and forced him out of the Hells. Astaroth retreated to the Abyss and started to gather cultists on various Primes, [start of personal musing] on one of these Primes, Toril, Gargauth finally caught up with Astaroth [end of personal musing] and Gargauth killed him (probably with hellfire). At this point, since Astaroth made a pact with Ahazu, his body was bound inside one of the Wells of Darkness (Source Dragon Magazine 357, except for the personal musing). Oh and on his appearance i would be cautious in linking it to any race: unique demons and devils have all kind of weird appendages/wings/tails/claws/pincers/whatever with layers of scaly/feathered/whatever skin attached without actually having any relation to similarly shaped races/monsters.
5 - The idea that Hilather got caught up with Eltab and the Myrkulites and started catching up on all the Realms changes while playing demon-binder on the side is intriguing and interesting at the same time. As is very interesting the notion that the Dark Pit was/is a planar tear/rift, seeing how Halaster was(is?) deeply into planar and conjuration/summoning/binding magic and gates/portals (i mean, just look at Undermountain!)
Speculations the fun of everything 
Oh, and btw, thanks for the references. So much of this is spread across so many books. It really helps. I'm going to respond in kind.
1 - ok, so this makes the demonsbane shields NOT be redeemed demonshields, because Anachtyr's followers made them in 44 DR. So, while interesting and they do in fact come into use against Narfellian forces, they aren't a Hilather/Halaster link.
2 - will have to read that, I know Astaroth invaded hell and became Diabolus, then got chased out by Gargauth. There's a little more in the info about Astaroth's vestige.
3 - hmmmm, I do like that the Dark Pit of Maleficence is another link to shattered night. However, you're right, I don't want it to be any simple matter for Hilather/Halaster to control it. Especially since it was a 20 year ritual from the cult of the dragon to free Gargauth. I'm really envisioning his linkage as providing something akin to a pact with the bound being (aka binder style pact magic), though possibly an even "stronger" pact than what one normally gets. If you look at the effects of the only demonshield given, it would fit well with pact magic, as it provides certain types of defensive energies (DR, elemental immunities/resistances, The only thing I don't like is that when the shield is destroyed, something gets loose. But then, perhaps what happens is if its destroyed it opens a temporary portal to the abyss... it doesn't free the linked entity... I'd be interested to hear other options, as I'm not exactly fond of what I just came up with.
4 - cool, I had found this same info on a web site, but didn't know where it was from. Dragon 357. Yeah, I'm hesitant to tie him to some weird version of the creator races, but it is interesting enough to put that as a back burner idea. Nothing to do with Halaster/Hilather though, so moving on.
5 - yeah, I'm really liking the part where Hilather/Halaster got involved with Eltabranar. I think so far that's the best part and most solidly built part we have. I also like that the Dark Pit is a planar tear. How this planar tear appeared on Toril.... now that part is up for debate. Personally, I'd like to blame the Imaskari for somehow ACCIDENTALLY creating the planar tear to shattered night. I'd also like to say that they were imprisoning beings in it, kind of as an experiment of "lets see what happens". I'd also like to say that the Imaskari maybe had some "cultists" of Ahazu who used this methodology to create new vestiges from fiends that they captured and bound, and that the Imaskari had a lot of knowledge on pact magic that's been lost over time. Personally, I like the idea that Halaster has some knowledge of pact magic (i.e. he's an anima mage), but the canon information doesn't support this.
I do also like the idea that Gargauth also learned of the Dark Pit of Maleficence and was imprisoning beings in it after performing some ritual to strip them of their power. Throw in that he figured he'd mess with Eltab during the reign of Eltabranar and SOMEHOW Hilather showed up and tipped the scales in Eltab's favor (it may have been as simple as maybe he magically tied up/held Gargauth temporarily and then Eltab pushed him into the pit... maybe its relatively easy to put beings in and hard to take them out). It gives us a reason for Gargauth being entrapped, having knowledge of the Everlasting Wyrm, etc...
I also like the idea that Gargauth devised a ritual that only freed the baatezu entrapped within the Dark Pit and encouraged Drakewings to use it. There may have been a lot of Baatezu that were entrapped in the pit by the Imaskari and not by Gargauth, and so in doing so he not only freed himself but helped the hells as well (and probably got himself some new hellish allies). This would of course be why sages think the well is linked to Baator.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Imaskari info
