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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Dec 2018 : 00:06:14
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by "knowing what happened" I mean we have the story of Khelben and the Moonstars and Fzoul, etc... I should have been more clear. My point was that "we might not have known the whole story" and Khelben may have been involved with growing another clone of Manshoon (or even multiple such clones) that triggered the cascade effect. Especially if Khelben had gotten ahold of the stasis clone spell. Another option could have been that he simply FOUND several such clones and changed the triggering conditions on them (back in 2e that was one of my most favorite homebrew spells I ever created... and for 3.5 I made modification of trigger conditions into a prestige class ability)
On the idea you wanted to steal... yeah, I'm digging it too the more I think on it. Especially the idea that these "clones" are more akin to an advanced version of simulacrum. In order to make this more "viable" for in game, it should be insanely expensive to create them compared to simulacrum. There probably should be some other rules to it too, darker things... maybe sacrifice of a soul or requiring upkeep involving larvae or somesuch. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2018 : 00:23:37
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They were and they weren't accounted for. I believe there were a total of 40-something clones, and we only got definitive info on a dozen. And then we were told there were only 3 left, when 3E came out and kicked the good storylines to the curb.
The easiest way to spin that is that only 3 were known to be active.
Of course, it's also possible that there are several around that are former Manshoons -- the compulsion to hunt each other down only affected Manshoon clones. So if one decided to make himself a half-elf named Mansiel, then he was no longer a Manshoon clone and could stand right next to a Manshoon clone without issue.
You could also have a Manshoon clone squirrel himself away somewhere that another clone wasn't likely to go, and get around the whole "kill the others!" thing that way. Maybe there's a Manshoon in the Moonshaes, or a Manshoon on the moon....
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2018 : 13:15:33
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| Also, on the idea of Halaster making multiple Manshoon clones from the cut off arm (and making them think they're someone else), maybe he's SPECIFICALLY choosing to use Manshoon in this way, because as a result of the magic used to trigger them all at once, he's now beyond the issues of having multiple clones of himself active. Maybe this only extends to clones made of the clones activated as part of this (i.e. clones of the clones activated cannot make multiple clones of themselves). It could very well be an experiment of Halaster's, and maybe he isn't even sure of what the results will be. It also MIGHT be that he's realizing these clones (the ones activated in the Manshoon Wars) AREN'T going insane even after a week of them all being active, and MAYBE he hopes that this means that they can be anchors in Undermountain and be resistant to the insanity that it causes? Just throwing out ideas to see what sticks. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 08 Dec 2018 13:16:34 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2018 : 04:31:15
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This was why the manshoon wars plot line was so wonderful - it could be spun into so many incredibly complicated tangents that bypass literally any statement by any source.
I think this was why Ed was always like... yes there are still a few more out there - because as long as there are more than one, the possibility for them to grow multiple strains of manshoons exists, each with its own set of wonderful consequences. |
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2018 : 21:25:17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
This was why the manshoon wars plot line was so wonderful - it could be spun into so many incredibly complicated tangents that bypass literally any statement by any source.
I think this was why Ed was always like... yes there are still a few more out there - because as long as there are more than one, the possibility for them to grow multiple strains of manshoons exists, each with its own set of wonderful consequences.
I personally love Ed's philosophy which I believe is "for each plot hook you resolve, introduce 2 more". Saying "there still exists free Manshoon's" you introduce a near infinite number of plothooks. |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2018 : 11:43:29
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| I do wonder why losing a hand was such a problem for the Manshoon Clone... this is not the first time Manshoon lost a hand - he had done so in his youth before becoming a lord of Zhentil Keep a a mage so one would think that EVERY Manshoon clone would know how to restore it. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2018 : 09:27:37
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| Perhaps as a clone he would have some physiological limits... |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2018 : 13:06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I do wonder why losing a hand was such a problem for the Manshoon Clone... this is not the first time Manshoon lost a hand - he had done so in his youth before becoming a lord of Zhentil Keep a a mage so one would think that EVERY Manshoon clone would know how to restore it.
It very well could be because of what I proposed above. Maybe Halaster cast some spell on this Manshoon clone which prevents him performing more than basic healing on himself. No regeneration. No cloning of new clones. No grafting of new flesh even possibly. I haven't read the adventure cover to cover yet because of work, but I don't see that this Manshoon clone has setup other Manshoon clones to take over should he die (if someone DOES see that text, please correct me). I do see that he's making simulacrums, but that's more construct than flesh and blood, being a creation of snow with an illusory effect over it and the simulation of some of the being's memories.
I can see Halaster very much performing a spell which can stop this type of effect. Especially if he chopped off the arm specifically to have some material that's "separate" before he puts the effect on the remaining body. Its almost like a "haha, I totally undid your favorite trick. Take that you snot nose whelp of an archmage" act, which I absolutely see Halaster enjoying. Essentially, Manshoon developed one great trick, and he let it be relatively well known what his trick was.... so naturally archmages will try and find the way to counteract it. Its in their nature. Its why you try to keep your secrets a secret. For instance, my main character/NPC developed essentially a "battery" type of spell which could be tied to specific spells on his body, such that even if exposed to an anti-magic effect these spells would still be in place (think magic UPS). Its strength was that it could be applied to different spells within a certain number of spell levels, so it wasn't like he'd always have the SAME spells protected. He didn't let it be known that he had this spell. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2018 : 14:05:13
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I do wonder why losing a hand was such a problem for the Manshoon Clone... this is not the first time Manshoon lost a hand - he had done so in his youth before becoming a lord of Zhentil Keep a a mage so one would think that EVERY Manshoon clone would know how to restore it.
It very well could be because of what I proposed above. Maybe Halaster cast some spell on this Manshoon clone which prevents him performing more than basic healing on himself. No regeneration. No cloning of new clones. No grafting of new flesh even possibly. I haven't read the adventure cover to cover yet because of work, but I don't see that this Manshoon clone has setup other Manshoon clones to take over should he die (if someone DOES see that text, please correct me). I do see that he's making simulacrums, but that's more construct than flesh and blood, being a creation of snow with an illusory effect over it and the simulation of some of the being's memories.
I can see Halaster very much performing a spell which can stop this type of effect. Especially if he chopped off the arm specifically to have some material that's "separate" before he puts the effect on the remaining body. Its almost like a "haha, I totally undid your favorite trick. Take that you snot nose whelp of an archmage" act, which I absolutely see Halaster enjoying. Essentially, Manshoon developed one great trick, and he let it be relatively well known what his trick was.... so naturally archmages will try and find the way to counteract it. Its in their nature. Its why you try to keep your secrets a secret. For instance, my main character/NPC developed essentially a "battery" type of spell which could be tied to specific spells on his body, such that even if exposed to an anti-magic effect these spells would still be in place (think magic UPS). Its strength was that it could be applied to different spells within a certain number of spell levels, so it wasn't like he'd always have the SAME spells protected. He didn't let it be known that he had this spell. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2018 : 20:19:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I do wonder why losing a hand was such a problem for the Manshoon Clone... this is not the first time Manshoon lost a hand - he had done so in his youth before becoming a lord of Zhentil Keep a a mage so one would think that EVERY Manshoon clone would know how to restore it.
What if Halaster's magic only reverted the hand regrown in Manshoons youth? Some form of powerful disjunction that negates all magical effects on target. I can see Halaster having something like that in his arsenal... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2018 : 07:54:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I do wonder why losing a hand was such a problem for the Manshoon Clone... this is not the first time Manshoon lost a hand - he had done so in his youth before becoming a lord of Zhentil Keep a a mage so one would think that EVERY Manshoon clone would know how to restore it.
What if Halaster's magic only reverted the hand regrown in Manshoons youth? Some form of powerful disjunction that negates all magical effects on target. I can see Halaster having something like that in his arsenal...
Interesting idea... just wondering, where is it noted he lost a hand in his youth? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2019 : 13:07:32
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I do wonder why losing a hand was such a problem for the Manshoon Clone... this is not the first time Manshoon lost a hand - he had done so in his youth before becoming a lord of Zhentil Keep a a mage so one would think that EVERY Manshoon clone would know how to restore it.
What if Halaster's magic only reverted the hand regrown in Manshoons youth? Some form of powerful disjunction that negates all magical effects on target. I can see Halaster having something like that in his arsenal...
Interesting idea... just wondering, where is it noted he lost a hand in his youth?
I have totally forgot to reply to this one...
Ruins of Zhentil Keep p.13 |
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe
288 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2019 : 17:21:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Ed told us that whales are treated with "kids gloves" by deities because their long lifespans and long memories enable them to "store" divine legitimacy for a long time. Halaster with his thousand years lifespan, his personal dealings with 3 goddesses of magic (4 with Shar and the Shadow Weave) and his extensive knowledge of divine dealings/mechanics/rules (from his Imaskari heritage and its long lifetime) is probably the closest human equivalent to the whales in this regard. So saving all this stored knowledge in some form away from the Spellplague destruction was probably more important for him than living a century or three as a disembodied, crazy and shattered spirit.
and suddenly I want to do an adventure that is based on star trek iv. A planar rift opened up and is going to destroy everything unless you find a humpback what infused with divine energy. :) |
check out my post-post apocalyptic world at www.drevrpg.com |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2019 : 02:12:35
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| What amazes me about Manshoon's history is that it suggests that he was a warrior well before becoming a wizard. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2019 : 17:37:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What amazes me about Manshoon's history is that it suggests that he was a warrior well before becoming a wizard.
It is even weirder. He was basically good for nothing noble son who lost arm in the first fight he got into and his brother was blinded in the same fight. He later murdered some guys as they slept and robbed them. From this moment he become very smart, killed his brother than double crossed lord of Zhentil Keep, took his place and in short time became leader of merchant-mage ruled council by becoming strongest of them in magic.
This was supposedly because he found a spellbook of some random adventurer...
Also he devised a new 9th level spell that he used already as he gained the position amongst Zhentilar (Stasis Clone). |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2019 : 01:32:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What amazes me about Manshoon's history is that it suggests that he was a warrior well before becoming a wizard.
Not too surprising to me from a 1st edition standpoint. It was fairly common to find players that wanted to "dual class" a few levels of fighter for the hit points before becoming a wizard. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2019 : 03:08:43
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What amazes me about Manshoon's history is that it suggests that he was a warrior well before becoming a wizard.
Not too surprising to me from a 1st edition standpoint. It was fairly common to find players that wanted to "dual class" a few levels of fighter for the hit points before becoming a wizard.
Its just bothersome to me because there is no sign of him being a warrior at all in current writings/rules. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2019 : 12:16:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What amazes me about Manshoon's history is that it suggests that he was a warrior well before becoming a wizard.
Not too surprising to me from a 1st edition standpoint. It was fairly common to find players that wanted to "dual class" a few levels of fighter for the hit points before becoming a wizard.
Its just bothersome to me because there is no sign of him being a warrior at all in current writings/rules.
As I wrote before it seems to me more like he had no class at all when he started and later became wizard. But the strange thing is how fast he got to high levels (if we speak in Rules language)... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2019 : 19:18:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What amazes me about Manshoon's history is that it suggests that he was a warrior well before becoming a wizard.
Not too surprising to me from a 1st edition standpoint. It was fairly common to find players that wanted to "dual class" a few levels of fighter for the hit points before becoming a wizard.
Its just bothersome to me because there is no sign of him being a warrior at all in current writings/rules.
Gotcha, though I must admit that there would be little point for him to be using weapons given his wizard levels. I could see him possibly wearing armor, but that would be with current rulesets (and when he was reworked in 3re edition, he didn't have any fighter levels). Oh, and all that being said, I don't know if they had him with fighter levels in earlier editions... I'm assuming that when you said they were writing it up that way that they did dual class him or something. Actually, when I look in the old villain's lorebook it shows him as just a wizard. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 20 Nov 2019 19:20:45 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2019 : 19:38:44
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Gotcha, though I must admit that there would be little point for him to be using weapons given his wizard levels. I could see him possibly wearing armor, but that would be with current rulesets (and when he was reworked in 3re edition, he didn't have any fighter levels). Oh, and all that being said, I don't know if they had him with fighter levels in earlier editions... I'm assuming that when you said they were writing it up that way that they did dual class him or something. Actually, when I look in the old villain's lorebook it shows him as just a wizard.
Most, if not all, of those entries were written just based on already-published material, and without much input from the authors.
Also, every edition has had a tendency to force square peg fiction characters into round holes defined by whatever the current ruleset is -- and most of the authors don't start with a character sheet when they're creating a character for a novel. I've seen so very many discussions about how some official character write-up isn't ideal, and how this canon character should have been created using this other class/kit/prestige class/whatever, instead of the base setup they were given... And often, it's because the class that's a better fit was created later, often with the specific NPC in mind.
This is another of the reasons I've long preferred the short statblocks we used to get in the 1E and 2E sourcebooks: Bahb Nounsilver (NG HM F7). Just the most basic info; let the DM create the stats they need. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2019 : 12:04:22
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| …and let's not forget the "rogue elf"? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Renin
Learned Scribe
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2019 : 20:26:28
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| In an odd sidenote; what resources actually detail the first specifics of the Manshoon War? I believe this was a change from 2nd to 3e, right? |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2019 : 22:30:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Renin
In an odd sidenote; what resources actually detail the first specifics of the Manshoon War? I believe this was a change from 2nd to 3e, right?
The "Cloak & Dagger" sourcebook.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Renin
Learned Scribe
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2019 : 01:03:48
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The "Cloak & Dagger" sourcebook.
-- George Krashos
Super! To my pdf library!! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2019 : 01:55:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Renin
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The "Cloak & Dagger" sourcebook.
-- George Krashos
Super! To my pdf library!!
Cloak & Dagger was one of the last books of the 2E era, if not the last one before 3E. In my opinion, it is one of the best sourcebooks we ever got.
The 3E FRCS took two of the major things from Cloak & Dagger -- the Manshoon Wars and the Harper Schism -- and basically kicked them to the curb. I remain irked by this. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly's newest musing: Halaster's Success?
