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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Nov 2018 : 16:16:17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
That little section of Cloak and Dagger that talked about the Manshoon Wars opened up so many possibilities. It was such a shame when they were RSEd into oblivion. Still, some of the maybe's suggested therein remain open for realms-shaping significance. Chief among them was this line:
"Manshoon (nine of him, to be precise) buys himself sanctuary in the company of many wizards such as Larloch the Lich-King, Vimal Craumerdaun of Eshpurta, Vynmarius of Athkatla, Vizar Mohad el Fisar of Manshaka, Tenaral of Amruthar, Vyth of Darmshall, Halaster of Undermountain, Master of Mages Guldor Zauviit of Sshamath, and the Simbul"
Just noting, I know I've heard of Larloch, the Simbul, and Halaster
... but of these others, is there really any lore? Or are they throw away references? Also, since I'm a person who thinks more along country lines if its not a city state, going to break these people into where they're said to be OF
Vimal Craumerdaun of Eshpurta - military trade town of Amn
Vynmarius of Athkatla - Capital of Amn
Vizar Mohad el Fisar of Manshaka - city of Calimshan
Tenaral of Amruthar - city of Thay beneath which an artifact was "active" prior to ToT
Vyth of Darmshall - fortress city of Vaasa
Master of Mages Guldor Zauviit of Sshamath - drow city "City of Dark Weavings" known for mages.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2018 : 17:17:00
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I think those were throwaway references.
Cloak & Dagger says Manshoon got sanctuary with Halaster, but the new Waterdeep book ignores that lore and instead says that Manny was down there without leave, Halaster caught him, they fought, Halaster won, imprisoned Manshoon and cut off his arm, and Manshoon somehow escaped after that. And Manshoon plots to get revenge on Hally for all that.
Not only does this ignore prior lore -- and in fact retcons it -- it really doesn't make sense.
Why would Halaster imprison Manshoon instead of slaying him? Why cut off his arm? If Manshoon was defeated and imprisoned with two arms, how did he escape with one? (Seriously, think on this one: When they encountered each other, Manshoon was hale and whole, and assumedly packing a full complement of spells. He was defeated, maimed, and somehow escaped. So he escaped from a much more powerful wizard, without having a full complement of spells, if any at all, and with his ability to cast any remaining spells very seriously hampered)
And why would a wizard go for a non-magical, mechanical prosthetic, instead of some sort of magical one? |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 18 Nov 2018 15:00:18 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2018 : 07:59:03
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i literally never found that tidbit
it blows. :P |
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Gareth
Seeker
United Kingdom
55 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2018 : 18:54:32
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Manshoon's left arm appears in "Dungeon of the Mad Mage".
-"The limb belonged to a human archmage named Manshoon—or, more precisely, to one of his clones. The clone challenged Halaster to a spell duel and lost more than just the contest. Halaster turned the limb into a guardian that attacks all intruders until the Mad Mage or a creature that looks like him waves it off."
FRCG (4th Edition) mentions that the clone that was with Halaster was destroyed during the Spellplague.
Ecology of the Sharn (Dragon 373)
-"In the depths of the Sargauth, below Halaster’s Halls, lives a mysterious creature known as the Drowned Queen, an aboleth like being thought to have unusual magical abilities akin to those of the sharns. It is whispered that the Drowned Queen was responsible for the death of a Manshoon clone who sought to rule the Underhalls in the years following the Mad Mage’s demise."
I think if I was trying to reconcile the lore, and assuming that Halaster's demise has not been retconned. I'd go with something like this.
Following the death of Halaster, Manshoon attempted to take over the Underhalls but ran afoul of two rivals. The first. "The Drowned Queen", who managed to repel him in apparent defeat, and later the sudden and surprise appearance of the returned Halaster who now viewed Manshoon as a trespasser and in his home without permission. Halaster not yet ready to reveal himself, allowed the rumour that Manshoon was killed by "The Drowned Queen" to continue.
- Gareth
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2018 : 20:54:23
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just noting, I know I've heard of Larloch, the Simbul, and Halaster
... but of these others, is there really any lore? Or are they throw away references?
Vynmarius of Athkatla was an ally if not a member of the Council of Six in Athkatla, and therefore was also most likely involved in the dealings of the Cowled Wizards and the Shadowtheives of Amn. |
"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2018 : 21:27:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think those were throwaway references.
Cloak & Dagger says Manshoon got sanctuary with Halaster, but the new Waterdeep book ignores that lore and instead says that Manny was down there without leave, Halaster caught him, they fought, Halaster won, imprisoned Manshoon and cut off his arm, and Manshoon somehow escaped after that. And Manshoon plots to get revenge on Hally for all that.
Not only does this ignore prior lore -- and in fact retcons it -- it really doesn't make sense.
Why would Halaster imprison Manshoon instead of slaying him? Why cut off his arm? If Manshoon was defeated and imprisoned with two arms, how did he escape with one? (Seriously, think on this one: When they encountered each other, Manshoon was hale and whole, and assumedly packing a full complement of spells. He was defeated, maimed, and somehow escaped. So he escaped from a much more powerful wizard, without having a full complement of spells, if any at all, and with his ability to cast any remaining spells very seriously hampered)
And why would a wizard go for a non-magical, mechanical prosthetic, instead of some sort of magical one?
Haven't delved the book that much mind you, but on this aspect of him being able to escape despite loss of an arm.... I can buy it IF he allowed enough time for Halaster to be distracted and elsewhere. Honestly, one of the things I was always doing with Sleyvas was the development of contingencies (not just the contingency spell). Manshoon (not in the novels mind you) was portrayed as thinking along these same lines. I would not be surprised if he had some hidden contingent effect that somehow or other let him "release" some "hidden" magic item that lets him escape. Maybe it invalidates all magic in an area and thus frees him. Maybe it pulls some magical snafu that lets him transport somewhere else (not a safe place mind you, but at least not Halaster's home turf). Maybe it allows him to apply still spell to some spells.
Now, why would he go for a prosthetic? Not going there until I read more. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2018 : 21:41:41
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(Spoilers)
I'd like to point out a small inconsistency in the lore: on the FR wiki it points out that Elminster "permanently" destroyed the vampire Manshoon, while acknowledging that a new clone would soon awaken. This implies that the Manshoon later seen in the Spellstorm novel would be the newly awakened clone.
However, it quite clearly states in the novel itself that this is vampire Manshoon, as his "sudden loss of powers" due to being trapped in the spellstorm "confounds him". Was this a mistake on the wiki's part, I wonder? I also cannot recall the moment when the vampire was permanently destroyed - surely that moment when Elminster blasts him in "Elminster Enraged" isn't sufficient to kill a vampire PERMANENTLY?
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"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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Gareth
Seeker
United Kingdom
55 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2018 : 23:22:28
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Elminster Enraged is in 1479 DR. The Manshoon killed at the end of it, I believe to be the original Orbakh Manshoon from Cloak and Dagger gifted Silverfire before the Spellplague to act as an anchor for Mystra's return.
The Manshoon seen in The Herald (1487 DR) and Spellstorm (1488 SR) I think is a clone of that same, Orbakh "Vampshoon", who was gifted the silverfire (spindle of Mystryl) by Mystra for a similar purpose.
I also believe that not all the scenes with Manshoon in the Sage of Shadowdale trilogy are of the same Manshoon clone.
I'm also of the view that there are at least two "lines" of Manshoon clones now in existance. Those made from non-vampiric Manshoon (such as the clone in Waterdeep) and those made from Vampiric Manshoon.
Gareth |
Edited by - Gareth on 18 Nov 2018 23:27:32 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2018 : 23:51:43
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Actually, something occurs to me as I read my own response as to a "means to make it so that Manshoon would prefer a prosthetic". What if
Option 1) The reason he had to go with the prosthetic is because in performing his escape, he had to perform some kind of decidedly anti-magical effect (what kind, I'm not sure), but the repercussions of this effect are that he can't heal his arm
Option 2) Halaster hit this Manshoon with a magical effect that prevents his "regenerating" or "regrowing" (aka cloning) any portion of his body as some kind of powerful curse. Halaster may have done this as an ultimate F/U effect knowing Manshoon's little trick with stasis clones. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2018 : 03:36:05
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Actually, something occurs to me as I read my own response as to a "means to make it so that Manshoon would prefer a prosthetic". What if
Option 1) The reason he had to go with the prosthetic is because in performing his escape, he had to perform some kind of decidedly anti-magical effect (what kind, I'm not sure), but the repercussions of this effect are that he can't heal his arm
Option 2) Halaster hit this Manshoon with a magical effect that prevents his "regenerating" or "regrowing" (aka cloning) any portion of his body as some kind of powerful curse. Halaster may have done this as an ultimate F/U effect knowing Manshoon's little trick with stasis clones.
My issue isn't the presence of the prosthetic, my issue is the presence of a mechanical, non-magical prosthetic for a high-level wizard. If it even had something simple like a built-in shocking grasp or something like that, it'd be another story... Or if it was something exotic, like the Ptolus NPC Jevicca Nor has: when she lost an arm, she made a red glass prosthetic. But it's none of those things -- it's just a mechanical prosthetic. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2018 : 05:04:03
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| I believe at the end of the last novel that Vampshoon was ultimately destroyed. Elminster made a comment about how he was going to use the silver fire and some magic that controls undead to make it permanent. He (El) also made a comment about how Vampshoon was, in truth nothing but the pawn of a puppetmaster. I believe that puppetmaster to be the real Manshoon... (the one I call Manshoon Prime, taking that name also from Cloak and Dagger). He is the big bad Manshoon, hiding in the shadows. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2018 : 13:29:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Actually, something occurs to me as I read my own response as to a "means to make it so that Manshoon would prefer a prosthetic". What if
Option 1) The reason he had to go with the prosthetic is because in performing his escape, he had to perform some kind of decidedly anti-magical effect (what kind, I'm not sure), but the repercussions of this effect are that he can't heal his arm
Option 2) Halaster hit this Manshoon with a magical effect that prevents his "regenerating" or "regrowing" (aka cloning) any portion of his body as some kind of powerful curse. Halaster may have done this as an ultimate F/U effect knowing Manshoon's little trick with stasis clones.
My issue isn't the presence of the prosthetic, my issue is the presence of a mechanical, non-magical prosthetic for a high-level wizard. If it even had something simple like a built-in shocking grasp or something like that, it'd be another story... Or if it was something exotic, like the Ptolus NPC Jevicca Nor has: when she lost an arm, she made a red glass prosthetic. But it's none of those things -- it's just a mechanical prosthetic.
On that.... he may be trying it out before he invests a lot of magic into it. He may decide to get rid of it. It may sound silly, but its practical. He may have had something else and it was destroyed, and this is his backup. Granted, all that is basically coming up with a workaround, so I feel your point. It does feel a bit rigged. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gareth
Seeker
United Kingdom
55 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2018 : 13:56:32
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He might also not care.
If he has another clone prepared for this Manshoon to jump into, he may just be squatting in this body until his current plans are over, knowing he can take out an obstacle to his plans if needed and wake up in a new clone with an arm. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2018 : 17:10:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Gareth
He might also not care.
If he has another clone prepared for this Manshoon to jump into, he may just be squatting in this body until his current plans are over, knowing he can take out an obstacle to his plans if needed and wake up in a new clone with an arm.
Mayhaps it's just me, but I think if that was Manshoon's thinking, he would have already gone that route -- it's canon that he used to deliberately charge into battle, knowing he had backups and that his opponents didn't. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2018 : 17:16:22
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| -Agreed. If literal bodies are kind of nothing but disposable assets, it might not be worth even investing that tiny little bit of energy/resources to repair when you know the next one is sitting there waiting and is whole. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2018 : 00:54:08
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| Which may lend a little more credence to the option above where somehow Halaster has made this body incapable of creating a clone at the same time that he lopped off the arm. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2018 : 02:51:56
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Which may lend a little more credence to the option above where somehow Halaster has made this body incapable of creating a clone at the same time that he lopped off the arm.
...And if that was the case, then it would be logical for Manshoon to have some sore of magical prosthetic. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2018 : 14:07:43
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| Hmm, given that it was within the Halls of Undermountain that all of this transpired... I do wonder if perhaps Trobriand had some mechanical limbs lying around for use in some unfinished construct, and Manshoon happened upon one of them... |
"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2018 : 22:54:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Balmar Foghaven
Hmm, given that it was within the Halls of Undermountain that all of this transpired... I do wonder if perhaps Trobriand had some mechanical limbs lying around for use in some unfinished construct, and Manshoon happened upon one of them...
This I like.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2018 : 14:26:53
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Hmmm, so I skipped forward to the NPC section and its states "Attempts to magically regenerate his severed limb failed, forcing him to craft an artificial arm and hand for himself." So, for some reason, magical regeneration is failing on him, and he apparently doesn't know why. I would venture to guess that he's also afraid to try his clones. He's taking to working through simulacrums though, which is probably something he did previously, but is another type of "clone" to a lesser degree. I do like the idea that he stole the arm from Trobriand and adapted it for use for himself (his "crafting" was making it magically work with himself, which in itself may be a new thing for Manshoon to have learned, possibly never having performed graft work before). One of the the things we have to remember is that just because you are an archmage doesn't mean you know how to make every kind of magical item or cast every kind of spell. This is what makes different archmages different from others. Some may focus on item creation. Others may focus on spellcraft. Even within item creation some may focus on the martial arts (weapons, armor, constructs) while others may focus more on spell arts (wands, staves, rods) and others may be more generic. Within spellcraft some may focus on a school of magic, a type of energy, the manipulation of energy into wards or triggered effects, etc.... Manshoon is indeed powerful, but in the end he's a relatively young archmage (stress relatively, he was born in 1229, so he's around 260 years old, but lord only knows how long THIS Manshoon was held captive in Undermountain.... 80 years? 120 years? He may have literally spent half his life as a captive now. Also, just what did Halaster subject him too? Is his mind whole and hale (for that matter, there's also the possibility that the "awakening" may have made some Manshoon clones somewhat insane?).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2018 : 14:47:14
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Hmmm, so I skipped forward to the NPC section and its states "Attempts to magically regenerate his severed limb failed, forcing him to craft an artificial arm and hand for himself." So, for some reason, magical regeneration is failing on him, and he apparently doesn't know why. I would venture to guess that he's also afraid to try his clones. He's taking to working through simulacrums though, which is probably something he did previously, but is another type of "clone" to a lesser degree. I do like the idea that he stole the arm from Trobriand and adapted it for use for himself (his "crafting" was making it magically work with himself, which in itself may be a new thing for Manshoon to have learned, possibly never having performed graft work before). One of the the things we have to remember is that just because you are an archmage doesn't mean you know how to make every kind of magical item or cast every kind of spell. This is what makes different archmages different from others. Some may focus on item creation. Others may focus on spellcraft. Even within item creation some may focus on the martial arts (weapons, armor, constructs) while others may focus more on spell arts (wands, staves, rods) and others may be more generic. Within spellcraft some may focus on a school of magic, a type of energy, the manipulation of energy into wards or triggered effects, etc.... Manshoon is indeed powerful, but in the end he's a relatively young archmage (stress relatively, he was born in 1229, so he's around 260 years old, but lord only knows how long THIS Manshoon was held captive in Undermountain.... 80 years? 120 years? He may have literally spent half his life as a captive now. Also, just what did Halaster subject him too? Is his mind whole and hale (for that matter, there's also the possibility that the "awakening" may have made some Manshoon clones somewhat insane?).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2018 : 22:08:09
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| but we have no reason to seriously doubt the dates given in GHotR unless we want to glorify Manshoon, which personally I see no reason to do. I see him as a rising star at one point who has somewhat burnt out. One of the clones may turn into something again, but not at present so much. I see him now as a "behind the scenes" archmage similar to how Zhengyi or Velsharoon were after they left Thay. They lurked for some time, gathered their strength, studied things, and then one day they set a major plan in motion. We didn't hear from either until Zhengyi declared himself the Witch-King or Velsharoon was gathering everything necessary to attain divinity. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2018 : 02:21:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think those were throwaway references.
Cloak & Dagger says Manshoon got sanctuary with Halaster, but the new Waterdeep book ignores that lore and instead says that Manny was down there without leave, Halaster caught him, they fought, Halaster won, imprisoned Manshoon and cut off his arm, and Manshoon somehow escaped after that. And Manshoon plots to get revenge on Hally for all that.
Not only does this ignore prior lore -- and in fact retcons it -- it really doesn't make sense.
Why would Halaster imprison Manshoon instead of slaying him? Why cut off his arm? If Manshoon was defeated and imprisoned with two arms, how did he escape with one? (Seriously, think on this one: When they encountered each other, Manshoon was hale and whole, and assumedly packing a full complement of spells. He was defeated, maimed, and somehow escaped. So he escaped from a much more powerful wizard, without having a full complement of spells, if any at all, and with his ability to cast any remaining spells very seriously hampered)
And why would a wizard go for a non-magical, mechanical prosthetic, instead of some sort of magical one?
A very simple explanation for this: Both events are 100% true and accurate.
Yes, Manshoon did in fact seek sanctuary with Halaster, and received it via payment of something big (probably stasis clone or perhaps some other spell). However Manshoon required that Halaster give sanctuary to no other Manshoon clone as part of his payment.
Then when a second Manshoon came along seeking sanctuary, Halaster as true to his word. He didn't give the second Manshoon sanctuary. He instead fought and defeated Manshoon and imprisoned him. This kept the second Manshoon safe (which was one of the primary goals of the second Manshoon), but he wasn't being given sanctuary. He was imprisoned.
During the second Manshoon's imprisonment he was tortured (probably not even by Halaster), and then Halaster (or perhaps the first Manshoon who had gained sanctuary) arranged for the second one to be given the opportunity to escape.
The second Manshoon, now missing one arm, was in a bit of a bother and so he quickly got together a second arm (the Spellplague had wreaked havoc with magic and this Manshoon had been imprisoned the entire time so he wasn't too sure what the current state of magic even was so when he came across a mechanical arm he was like "eh. Might as well. Better safe than sorry"). He's now working to set himself up and he simply hasn't gotten around to fixing his arm.
One Arm Manshoon also isn't 100% sure clones created before the Spellplague still work. He suspects they do, but that's a pretty big gamble. Especially when he doesn't understand why his arm won't grow back.
quote:
Originally posted by Gareth
FRCG (4th Edition) mentions that the clone that was with Halaster was destroyed during the Spellplague.
Ecology of the Sharn (Dragon 373)
-"In the depths of the Sargauth, below Halaster’s Halls, lives a mysterious creature known as the Drowned Queen, an aboleth like being thought to have unusual magical abilities akin to those of the sharns. It is whispered that the Drowned Queen was responsible for the death of a Manshoon clone who sought to rule the Underhalls in the years following the Mad Mage’s demise."
Doesn't say which Manshoon clone she defeated. There could still be one living in Halaster's sanctuary.
There were lots of Manshoon clones. Who knows how many ventured into Undermountain. Makes sense if one had the idea that others would have also had the same idea.
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DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2018 : 13:05:36
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Nice story (i.e. the multiple Manshoons in Undermountain). I do still like the idea that Halaster did something to at least one of the Manshoon's that prevents his magical healing, regeneration, AND growth of a new body from his flesh (i.e. making a new clone). He may have placed this spell on him AFTER amputating his arm. This may have been done as a spell that maybe Halaster developed to basically rip the ties of an individual to any other clones they may have (after all, the first act of some of the Manshoon clones may have been to make new stasis clones). It would also aid keeping him imprisoned, as it would hinder spellcasting to a degree. Basically, the effect may to some degree separate "body" and "soul" in ways that we from our own world can't fathom, and this separation prevents magical healing, etc... (because for all we know, magical healing uses the natural power of one's soul... which may be one "unwritten" reason why constructs can't heal and must be repaired?).
BTW, we know the story from Cloak and Dagger as to what happened with Manshoon's clones. However, what if there were more to it. Khelben was a bit of a dick. In earlier editions, there was NOTHING to prevent another person who got ahold of "a big bit of flesh" from making a clone of you. Manshoon made all of his stasis clones, and he setup all these contingencies to have them go off in a certain order, etc... But what if Khelben grew his OWN clone of Manshoon and basically setup similar contingent effects that would "make it activate". Basically it could have been Khelben's working of TRIGGERING mechanisms that caused HIS clone of Manshoon and MANSHOON'S clone of Manshoon to awaken at the same time, and this breakdown then had a cascade effect awakening all the other stasis clones.
Halaster was 100% prick with a side of insane experimenter thrown in. Halaster amputated THIS Manshoon clone's arm and then imprisoned him (how long was the imprisonment? A year or two? Multiple decades?). Our first thoughts are that Halaster chopped off the arm because he wanted to cripple his prisoner. However, WHAT IF his intent was to get enough material to make multiple Manshoon clones? WHAT IF his experiment with a new spell on the Manshoon with the arm with its arm chopped off was to SEE if he could activate a new clone while THAT Manshoon was still alive? For all we know, the "arm off" Manshoon doesn't even KNOW that his cut off arm was used to make multiple extra Manshoons (if I had to guess, an arm might be enough material to make maybe 10 to 20 clones?). Manshoon being a powerful archmage, he'd be a great resource for Halaster, who might possibly use these clones to help him anchor the wards of Undermountain, so that he himself could be free. Especially after the issues created by Halaster's Highharvestide just a year (months?) after Manshoon's cloning fiasco, he may have wanted to put SOMETHING in place should he ever be removed from the Underhalls so as not to put THE WEAVE in danger (I say the weave, because I don't think he would care about the PEOPLE being in danger... his WEAVE being in danger though... unforgivable). Therefore, there may be Manshoon clones all throughout undermountain. These clones may very well have their spellcasting abilities intact, but maybe they have their memories modified/overwritten. Maybe they just know they need to protect certain "things" or "areas", and they help Halaster stabilize Undermountain. They may not even KNOW they are Manshoon. These clones may also be created with a different type of clone spell that's basically an advanced kind of simulacrum, in that they themselves cannot be used to make more clones. Maybe they can't even heal except via magic. In essence, they may be closer to what Alias is than a clone, but their initial bodies may have been grown just like a clone from a bit of flesh. Halaster's "death" in 1375 may have been him actually using some ritual to transfer a lot of this excessive "work" onto these clones and off of himself, and whether or not it was successful could be something we just don't know. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2018 : 13:28:34
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Lol, and I'm realizing now... what I'm writing above about using Manshoon clones to anchor the weave of undermountain as part of the ritual that "ended" Halaster exactly plays into Wooly's premise for this thread. All of this within a very short span of time in the overall scheme of things.
1368 Manshoon clones released
1369 Halaster's Highharvestide
sometime between 1368 - 1375 - Manshoon clone enters Undermountain, faces Halaster, has arm chopped off
1375 Halaster attempts ritual and "dies"
Given that it takes several months to grow a clone, and we're talking MULTIPLE such clones to be grown. Plus, I'd very much imagine that Halaster would put means of control into the clones AND change their memories so they don't even know WHO they were. Plus whatever things he may need to do to anchor portions of the "weave" of magic which he's setup in Undermountain to regions that these clones would protect. It may take him a few years to get things prepped.
BTW, my first thoughts were to have him having the clones anchoring the weave similar to how he does. However, he might be afraid to do this, and he might have the clones simply protecting other things which anchor the weave. It might be interesting to think of things that might be done. For instance, WHAT IF he were to capture an illithid elder brain and put it under compulsions (something I cannot picture many mages being able to do...but Halaster?.. that man may just have the knowledge) to anchor a portion of the weave. Even as I write up this concept, my googling even makes a more interesting discovery in that Ioulaum of Netheril apparently transferred his sentience into an undead elder brain and was still alive in 1372 in the Northdark city of Ellyn'taal. Any idea where this is? It might be interesting if Halaster decided to use the mind of Ioulaum to help him anchor things.
Along similar lines, I wouldn't be surprised if Halaster secured a mythallar from the Netherese of Returned Netheril, or possibly even a Udoxias from Jhaamdath, or some kind of Imaskari or Calishite device to help secure Undermountain. Hells, I wouldn't be surprised if he even entrapped a minor primordial/genie/powerful fey being. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 07 Dec 2018 14:35:04 |
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2018 : 13:48:57
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnLynch
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think those were throwaway references.
Cloak & Dagger says Manshoon got sanctuary with Halaster, but the new Waterdeep book ignores that lore and instead says that Manny was down there without leave, Halaster caught him, they fought, Halaster won, imprisoned Manshoon and cut off his arm, and Manshoon somehow escaped after that. And Manshoon plots to get revenge on Hally for all that.
Not only does this ignore prior lore -- and in fact retcons it -- it really doesn't make sense.
Why would Halaster imprison Manshoon instead of slaying him? Why cut off his arm? If Manshoon was defeated and imprisoned with two arms, how did he escape with one? (Seriously, think on this one: When they encountered each other, Manshoon was hale and whole, and assumedly packing a full complement of spells. He was defeated, maimed, and somehow escaped. So he escaped from a much more powerful wizard, without having a full complement of spells, if any at all, and with his ability to cast any remaining spells very seriously hampered)
And why would a wizard go for a non-magical, mechanical prosthetic, instead of some sort of magical one?
A very simple explanation for this: Both events are 100% true and accurate.
Yes, Manshoon did in fact seek sanctuary with Halaster, and received it via payment of something big (probably stasis clone or perhaps some other spell). However Manshoon required that Halaster give sanctuary to no other Manshoon clone as part of his payment.
Then when a second Manshoon came along seeking sanctuary, Halaster as true to his word. He didn't give the second Manshoon sanctuary. He instead fought and defeated Manshoon and imprisoned him. This kept the second Manshoon safe (which was one of the primary goals of the second Manshoon), but he wasn't being given sanctuary. He was imprisoned.
During the second Manshoon's imprisonment he was tortured (probably not even by Halaster), and then Halaster (or perhaps the first Manshoon who had gained sanctuary) arranged for the second one to be given the opportunity to escape.
The second Manshoon, now missing one arm, was in a bit of a bother and so he quickly got together a second arm (the Spellplague had wreaked havoc with magic and this Manshoon had been imprisoned the entire time so he wasn't too sure what the current state of magic even was so when he came across a mechanical arm he was like "eh. Might as well. Better safe than sorry"). He's now working to set himself up and he simply hasn't gotten around to fixing his arm.
One Arm Manshoon also isn't 100% sure clones created before the Spellplague still work. He suspects they do, but that's a pretty big gamble. Especially when he doesn't understand why his arm won't grow back.
quote:
Originally posted by Gareth
FRCG (4th Edition) mentions that the clone that was with Halaster was destroyed during the Spellplague.
Ecology of the Sharn (Dragon 373)
-"In the depths of the Sargauth, below Halaster�s Halls, lives a mysterious creature known as the Drowned Queen, an aboleth like being thought to have unusual magical abilities akin to those of the sharns. It is whispered that the Drowned Queen was responsible for the death of a Manshoon clone who sought to rule the Underhalls in the years following the Mad Mage�s demise."
Doesn't say which Manshoon clone she defeated. There could still be one living in Halaster's sanctuary.
There were lots of Manshoon clones. Who knows how many ventured into Undermountain. Makes sense if one had the idea that others would have also had the same idea.
That... actually makes a lot of sense. I like this idea. |
"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2018 : 13:49:30
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnLynch
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think those were throwaway references.
Cloak & Dagger says Manshoon got sanctuary with Halaster, but the new Waterdeep book ignores that lore and instead says that Manny was down there without leave, Halaster caught him, they fought, Halaster won, imprisoned Manshoon and cut off his arm, and Manshoon somehow escaped after that. And Manshoon plots to get revenge on Hally for all that.
Not only does this ignore prior lore -- and in fact retcons it -- it really doesn't make sense.
Why would Halaster imprison Manshoon instead of slaying him? Why cut off his arm? If Manshoon was defeated and imprisoned with two arms, how did he escape with one? (Seriously, think on this one: When they encountered each other, Manshoon was hale and whole, and assumedly packing a full complement of spells. He was defeated, maimed, and somehow escaped. So he escaped from a much more powerful wizard, without having a full complement of spells, if any at all, and with his ability to cast any remaining spells very seriously hampered)
And why would a wizard go for a non-magical, mechanical prosthetic, instead of some sort of magical one?
A very simple explanation for this: Both events are 100% true and accurate.
Yes, Manshoon did in fact seek sanctuary with Halaster, and received it via payment of something big (probably stasis clone or perhaps some other spell). However Manshoon required that Halaster give sanctuary to no other Manshoon clone as part of his payment.
Then when a second Manshoon came along seeking sanctuary, Halaster as true to his word. He didn't give the second Manshoon sanctuary. He instead fought and defeated Manshoon and imprisoned him. This kept the second Manshoon safe (which was one of the primary goals of the second Manshoon), but he wasn't being given sanctuary. He was imprisoned.
During the second Manshoon's imprisonment he was tortured (probably not even by Halaster), and then Halaster (or perhaps the first Manshoon who had gained sanctuary) arranged for the second one to be given the opportunity to escape.
The second Manshoon, now missing one arm, was in a bit of a bother and so he quickly got together a second arm (the Spellplague had wreaked havoc with magic and this Manshoon had been imprisoned the entire time so he wasn't too sure what the current state of magic even was so when he came across a mechanical arm he was like "eh. Might as well. Better safe than sorry"). He's now working to set himself up and he simply hasn't gotten around to fixing his arm.
One Arm Manshoon also isn't 100% sure clones created before the Spellplague still work. He suspects they do, but that's a pretty big gamble. Especially when he doesn't understand why his arm won't grow back.
quote:
Originally posted by Gareth
FRCG (4th Edition) mentions that the clone that was with Halaster was destroyed during the Spellplague.
Ecology of the Sharn (Dragon 373)
-"In the depths of the Sargauth, below Halaster�s Halls, lives a mysterious creature known as the Drowned Queen, an aboleth like being thought to have unusual magical abilities akin to those of the sharns. It is whispered that the Drowned Queen was responsible for the death of a Manshoon clone who sought to rule the Underhalls in the years following the Mad Mage�s demise."
Doesn't say which Manshoon clone she defeated. There could still be one living in Halaster's sanctuary.
There were lots of Manshoon clones. Who knows how many ventured into Undermountain. Makes sense if one had the idea that others would have also had the same idea.
That... actually makes a lot of sense. I like this idea. |
"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2018 : 18:26:03
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The amusing part about the Manshoon War is that is a plan that a mage of mine was working on before I had even heard of it as being part of the released FR lore. He created a new spell called Trigger Contigency (he actually came up with two different versions of it). The idea was to use it on Manshoon (possibly by casting it on a few pebbles and then scattering them around where Manshoon may walk, a "Contigency Landmine" if you will) so that it would trigger his stasis clone to awake and then they would kill each other. I can also see it going wrong and awakening ALL the clones. It is also useful in dodging fights with high level mages since most have some kind of contingency that will teleport them away. You just cast the spell and the other mage removes himself from the battle. If he comes back, he very likely won't have had time to create a new set of contingencies so he is going to be fighting without any backup plan.
As for Wooly's idea, I like it. Mystra's big thing was to make sure that knowledge of magic is never lost, even if she is destroyed. What better way to store magical knowledge than a fragmented soul who could survive the elimination of magic and then collect itself back together into a being who understands it fully and would be around to teach the next generations of mages once magic returned. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2018 : 21:58:23
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I do still like the idea that Halaster did something to at least one of the Manshoon's that prevents his magical healing, regeneration, AND growth of a new body from his flesh (i.e. making a new clone).
We know in Dragon Heist that One-Armed Manshoon can create the standard clone spell (with a minor tweak). In my version One-Armed Manshoon lost his spellbook and all of his backup spellbooks had been stolen. So Manshoon has been working on recreating his spellbook and spent 30 years trying to recreate stasis clone. He's close to finishing it, but that could definitely mean the spell will still fizzle and not work and now he'll have to work out WHY it's not working. This can be done by sending PCs down into Undermountain on a regular basis.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
BTW, we know the story from Cloak and Dagger as to what happened with Manshoon's clones.
Aaah. I didn't realise all of them had been accounted for. In my version there were definitely more Manshoons (some of them would have been kept off world and then traveled back to Toril upon awakening).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, what if there were more to it. Khelben was a bit of a dick. In earlier editions, there was NOTHING to prevent another person who got ahold of "a big bit of flesh" from making a clone of you. Manshoon made all of his stasis clones, and he setup all these contingencies to have them go off in a certain order, etc... But what if Khelben grew his OWN clone of Manshoon and basically setup similar contingent effects that would "make it activate". Basically it could have been Khelben's working of TRIGGERING mechanisms that caused HIS clone of Manshoon and MANSHOON'S clone of Manshoon to awaken at the same time, and this breakdown then had a cascade effect awakening all the other stasis clones.
I like that a lot.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Halaster was 100% prick with a side of insane experimenter thrown in. Halaster amputated THIS Manshoon clone's arm and then imprisoned him (how long was the imprisonment? A year or two? Multiple decades?). Our first thoughts are that Halaster chopped off the arm because he wanted to cripple his prisoner. However, WHAT IF his intent was to get enough material to make multiple Manshoon clones? WHAT IF his experiment with a new spell on the Manshoon with the arm with its arm chopped off was to SEE if he could activate a new clone while THAT Manshoon was still alive? For all we know, the "arm off" Manshoon doesn't even KNOW that his cut off arm was used to make multiple extra Manshoons (if I had to guess, an arm might be enough material to make maybe 10 to 20 clones?). Manshoon being a powerful archmage, he'd be a great resource for Halaster, who might possibly use these clones to help him anchor the wards of Undermountain, so that he himself could be free. Especially after the issues created by Halaster's Highharvestide just a year (months?) after Manshoon's cloning fiasco, he may have wanted to put SOMETHING in place should he ever be removed from the Underhalls so as not to put THE WEAVE in danger (I say the weave, because I don't think he would care about the PEOPLE being in danger... his WEAVE being in danger though... unforgivable). Therefore, there may be Manshoon clones all throughout undermountain. These clones may very well have their spellcasting abilities intact, but maybe they have their memories modified/overwritten. Maybe they just know they need to protect certain "things" or "areas", and they help Halaster stabilize Undermountain. They may not even KNOW they are Manshoon. These clones may also be created with a different type of clone spell that's basically an advanced kind of simulacrum, in that they themselves cannot be used to make more clones. Maybe they can't even heal except via magic. In essence, they may be closer to what Alias is than a clone, but their initial bodies may have been grown just like a clone from a bit of flesh. Halaster's "death" in 1375 may have been him actually using some ritual to transfer a lot of this excessive "work" onto these clones and off of himself, and whether or not it was successful could be something we just don't know.
I love this idea. Consider it stolen!
quote:
Originally posted by Balmar Foghaven
That... actually makes a lot of sense. I like this idea.
Thanks. Contradictions can be a good source of inspiration in how you explain them away. |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
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Wooly's newest musing: Halaster's Success?
