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 Dwarves mythal ?
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Marco Volo
Learned Scribe

France
205 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2013 :  20:16:04  Show Profile Send Marco Volo a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hello,
According to you, have dwarves anything close to elves mythal to protect their subterranean homes ?

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36964 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2013 :  20:22:39  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lacking the High Magic tradition of the elves, I'd say not. But that's not to say that they didn't use fields of magical wards, such as those that surrounded Silverymoon before it was inexplicably upgraded to a mythal.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
12189 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2013 :  20:58:37  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, in the case of dwarves, I'm picturing individualized runic wards. Compartmentalized magic that can easily be expanded into new areas, renewed in said areas, and if an area no longer needs it, can be allowed to drop. After all, dwarves as a society move around a good bit as they chase metal. So, if for 20 years they're working some area, they might put up some wards there to protect the miners, then let it drop when they leave.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
12189 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2013 :  21:09:57  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, from a mindset standpoint, I don't see dwarves as being secure enough to favor creating a mythal. From a physical perspective for defense and offense, they can see the benefits of some master craftsmanship in the form of armor, weapons, walls, siege equipment, etc.... But, magical defenses can be stripped away with some finger wiggling, and new spells are being developed every day. Therefore, I see dwarves favoring the idea of building magical defenses that change all the time. It gives their spellcasters an extra workload renewing spells, but it also ensures that they spend the time to check out those wards... see what's happened.... Is it more work? Yes... but what dwarf wants to be known as a shiftless layabout.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Marco Volo
Learned Scribe

France
205 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2013 :  22:31:27  Show Profile Send Marco Volo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for your replies.
PCs in my Realms campaign are going to explore a ancient Dwarve complex occupied by an evil force and I've the idea they're going to find a dwarve ghost that will learn them to activate the defenses of the complex to help them in their quest.
I was thinking about three levers to activate. One of them protect the complex from undead lesser than 4 HD, the second will activate some animated statues and the third I don't know yet. But those powers imply a sort of mythal-like effect and I don't know how to change that.

Anyway, I wouldn't these defenses to replace the PC's actions and prevent the PCs from battle encounters.

Any help ?

Sorry if don't make it clear. I'm french and I'm often mistaken. I will try to be more clear if you don't understand my problem.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
8029 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2013 :  22:50:36  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dwarves favour engineering, traps, machinery - and of course many, many, many very sharp battle axes. I suppose that dwarven “stonecunning“ racial abilities to sense odd stonework, slightly shifted/inclined/declined passages, etc can be used to detect such defensive features, which can be combined with dwarven clanslore and warning runes to alert all but the dumbest dwarves and non-dwarf intruders away from danger.

I imagine dwarves as being a not particularly creative lot, but inspired by fanatically serious passions about defending their strongholds. Even the hearth mothers are trained for battle and take up arms in defense. Invaders familiar with dwarven histories might have a distinct advantage for bypassing dwarven deathtraps.

The 2E Complete Book of Dwarves features a variety of astonishing (possibly ridiculous) yet gruesomely efficient mining and war machinery which dwarves use to frightening effect against anyone who trespasses in their territory.

If the long-abandoned complex has been occupied by someone else, they may have already triggered or deactivated the existing defenses ... or installed some new ones of their own.

Agreed with Wooly, dwarven magics and wards would invariably be of the priestly sort - such stuff might not be functional after a long absense of faithful worshippers to provide divine energy. Or perhaps it might.

Dwarves could also make use of dangerous monsters. A pit trap or dead-end portcullis trap is far more effective when it also releases an angry troll, green slime, rot grubs, or carrion crawlers.

The animated undead (or wards vs animated dead) are easily explained with priest spells, the animated statue could simply be a golem, there‘s no need to invoke a mythal to explaine things ... but then, there‘s no need to disabuse your players with the truth. How many dumb greedy adventurers would understand or appreciate lost dwarven technology?

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Nov 2013 23:05:47
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36964 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2013 :  23:02:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Marco Volo

Thanks for your replies.
PCs in my Realms campaign are going to explore a ancient Dwarve complex occupied by an evil force and I've the idea they're going to find a dwarve ghost that will learn them to activate the defenses of the complex to help them in their quest.
I was thinking about three levers to activate. One of them protect the complex from undead lesser than 4 HD, the second will activate some animated statues and the third I don't know yet. But those powers imply a sort of mythal-like effect and I don't know how to change that.

Anyway, I wouldn't these defenses to replace the PC's actions and prevent the PCs from battle encounters.

Any help ?

Sorry if don't make it clear. I'm french and I'm often mistaken. I will try to be more clear if you don't understand my problem.



I'd go with wards that were based around physical keys, myself. Perhaps keystones, placed in specific locations. Each keystone would need to be reactivated with either a special ritual, some specific material (maybe keyed magical items or gems, or items blessed by dwarven deities), or a combination of the two. Once each keystone is activated, it takes effect -- perhaps in stages, until the entire area is warded.

I don't think it sounds like a mythal, though. Mythals have a lot more effects, and some of those effects can be quite powerful.

It sounds more like wards to me, as Ed described in some of the Volo's Guides of 2E. Wards protect an area and generally have a single protective effect; mythals protect an area and offer a host of protective and utilitarian effects, and often offer direct benefits to inhabitants. Wards can be circumvented with tokens keyed to the ward, but mythals can only be circumvented with way powerful magic or with the aid of someone controlling the mythal.

Oh, and wards can overlap and complement each other. In 2E, Silverymoon was protected by many, many wards. That got retconned with 3E, into being a mythal.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Nov 2013 23:05:26
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31799 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2013 :  04:33:53  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's purely speculation on my behalf, and still not a fully developed theory, but I like to play around in the theory-space of what the earlier editions said about mythals, when they were still vague and general concepts.

In this theory, my view of the primacy of elven High Magic in mythal creation is more propaganda than fact. The elves likely did it better than the other races, but not always and certainly not exclusively. Which opens the door for the possible dwarven equivalent of a mythal.

[This is, though, only after the possibility of ancient dwarven wizards of capable power are also explained. Dwarves Deep tells us "Elminster . . . knows of no dwarven wizards, and believes the inherent magic resistance of 'trueblood' dwarves makes their mastery of wizardry impossible."

Of course, as ever, Elminster might be wrong, and the occasional unique dwarven wizard would be fully within the spirit of Realmslore. And it also doesn't discount the likelihood of dwarven runic magicks literally being "hammered" into the foundations of their ancient cities, and producing the equivalent of either arcane or divine mythal-like properties across the dwarfhold. Perhaps the very earthy-nature of dwarven runic magic brings with it a kind of elemental-like geomancy, that these dwarven runesmiths can harness for the creation of dwarven mythals.]

This helps to explain how humans have also managed to construct many powerful large-scale wards/mythal-like fields, from the 7th-level wardmist through unpublished 8th- and 9th-level spells, short of a literal (10th-level) mythal.

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Marco Volo
Learned Scribe

France
205 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2013 :  09:13:00  Show Profile Send Marco Volo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you very much the Sage, Wooly and Ayrik.
Your thought are inspiring for my stronghold, and my PCs should love it !
It's a work-in-progress dungeon, and any idea remains welcome
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6688 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2013 :  10:05:24  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
FR11 (at p.46) notes that Underhome in the Great Rift has "potent magical detection fields and barriers bartered from the Sun Elves in the days of Myth Drannor …". So anything is possible in my book …

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
8029 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2013 :  22:47:19  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I forgot to mention earth elementals. They might be bound as guardians for an indefinite period.

Is your occupying “evil force“ the reason the dwarves were slain or forced to abandon this stronghold, or just something which moved in after the fact? Dwarves might‘ve abandoned a stronghold for innocent reasons - even something simple like their mines were completely played out. But if they were forced out then they‘d have fought bitterly, and any survivors (if any) would‘ve likely been stubbornly bitter and vengeful - such a major event would likely also been recorded in the clan history (hey, it was a big bloody battle!) and could motivate later generations to retake what was lost. Can‘t let precious/secret dwarven treasures fall into the hands of misshapen humans, clumsy orcs, or even worse, pointy-eared elven scum.

These might be good hooks for any dwarven PCs, or a good way to bring in dwarven NPCs. Also, a place full of deadly mechanisms can make the party‘s thief feel really clever and useful. Also a great way to introduce one of my favourite minor (but useful) magic items, the Girdle of Dwarvenkind.

[/Ayrik]
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Marco Volo
Learned Scribe

France
205 Posts

Posted - 22 Nov 2013 :  09:21:12  Show Profile Send Marco Volo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks George, forever THE scholar of the Realms.

Ayrik, the dwarves stronghold is actually part of the 8th level of Undermountain. I don't want my PC (neitheir do they) spent ten play sessions exploring the level itself (their are more RP guys, like me). Their goal is only the stronghold. I've called it "The manufacture", it was own by the Melairbode (mines of mythal, gemcutting ; now the mines are empty) but abandoned very long ago. It is now occupied by the yuan-ti Nhyris D'Hothek wearing the crown of horns as a mad lich.

D'Hothek has with him shadowraths lesser and greater, few yuan-ti who stand with him because they are feared, a few doppelgangers, and night riders without gaunts.

The "wards vs animated dead" will destroy the lesser shadowraths.

When their are going to win against D'Hothek, Harpers and Zstulkk Ssarmn's jailers will showed up. Harpers will try to catch the crown, and the yuan-ti jailers will try to kill the PC.

PC have also to find a way out, which is not a easy thing in Undermountain ;)

Edited by - Marco Volo on 22 Nov 2013 09:34:35
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
8029 Posts

Posted - 22 Nov 2013 :  22:58:29  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah, the lost Undermountain: Stardock level ... a lot of fun and goodies!

[/Ayrik]
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2013 :  04:36:37  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I could see dwarves having a mythal equivalent in the form of runic magic.

On page 42 of Dwarves Deep we have: "The Lost Runes of Power: Legends persist of runes once known to the dwarves that were far more powerful than the existing ones. A single rune of power was used to level the ancient city of Dharrmaghongh in Murghom, long ago. Elminster warns that although such runes definitely existed, no dwarven clan controls such power now - or recent dwarven history would be far different."

I'd say taking out an entire city would be on par with high magic or epic spells.
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Marco Volo
Learned Scribe

France
205 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2013 :  10:24:01  Show Profile Send Marco Volo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IIRC, the rune of the Melairbode clan is not published anywhere in the Realms product, right ?

I think I have to drown it, but I want to check with you first.

Edited by - Marco Volo on 28 Nov 2013 10:24:58
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2013 :  13:48:56  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mostly mechanical, I am thinking. The 'mythal' itself (the Dwarfenizer 9000?) would be like some huge machine buried at the heart of the complex, and it would be connected to just about every entrance and passage in the place, via runes and also things like ropes and chains.

So it would be part mechanical, part magical. You trip a wire in one hallway, and other hallways rotate to different positions, panels in the floor open up, doors lock, etc.

Dwarves are more 'hands on' then Elves. Whereas Elves would set up a Mythal so necromantic magic won't work, a dwarf would rather just drop a boulder on the necromancer's head.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Nov 2013 13:50:13
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