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Shining Heart
Acolyte
2 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 08:57:58
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Hello everyone.
I'm going to be sending my main PC to Kara Tur for some adventuring, even incorporating the legendary Herald of Mei Ling from the AD&D Book of Artifacts.
Where can I find some information on the Gods of Kara-Tur, the structure etc?
I am reticent to create it all out of my imagination, and would rather base it, even loosely, on canon info.
Thanks all.
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 10:24:18
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| The Kara Tur box set would be the best source. Its been a while since I looked at it so I remember next to nothing about it, but there should be some bits on religion. The Hordelands box also has some information, including Monkey. I am a bit unsure if the Chinese gods are detailed in Legends & Lore (1st&2nd ed.), but I will check later. But I am certain that there is information on Japanese gods if you are planning to go to Kozakura. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 14:01:22
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My memory is a little fuzzy (since the books are at home), but I do know think they have a pantheon that is based on the Celestial Bureaucracy (including Monkey and such). Instead of the hundreds of gods in the rest of Faerūn, they have thousands. Most are minor demigods and former emperors, and it is a bureaucracy in every sense of the word. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 21 Aug 2008 15:33:01 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 16:45:20
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Hmmm... I should have finished the religions portion of my project.
Shou-Lung and T'u-Lung use the Chinese Pantheon, with a few exceptions. For the most part they are the same gods, though. The southern Jungle area (Malatra) uses the Vedic Panthoen, and the Northern/Ama Basin Region uses a plethora of Totemic Spirits with a few real gods thrown in the mix. You can get a great over-view of their faith on page 25 of the Kara-Tur boxed set.
I personally use the Japanese Pantheeon for the two Island nations (Kozakura & Wa), but that is just personal preference - as far as I know, canonically they also use the Chinese Pantheon.
The religion of the Celestial Bureaucracy in Kara-Tur is called The Path of Enlightenment, and unlike the west, most temples are dedicated to the entire Pantheon. You may have some with 'patrons', and those temples may feature one god more prominently over the others, but traditionally all the gods can be worshipped in any temple.
The other main religion in Kara-Tur is The Way. Unlike The Path, this religion isn't officially recognized by the state, and several times in history was outlawed by the Shou Gov't (Although just about everyone practices both religions to some degree). This religion is also a lot less regulated then the official one, which has lead to dozens, perhaps hundreds, of 'splinter sects'. This Faith is more of a philosophy then a true religion, because the veneration of gods only plays a small part. In fact, they consider the gods just a Higher form of Kami, or 'Spirit', and they believe that ALL spirits must be respected, great and small. In Kara-Tur, all facets of nature have Kami associated with them, and in some rural cases the Faith almost appears to be an Eastern version of the Druidic philosophy. They are more concerned with harmony and balance then placing any one divine being above another.
Further, the religion has broken into two major branches; the Eastern Way, and the western Padran Faith. While the Eastern Branch has no single figure at its head (and each Temple makes up its own rules, leading to much intra-faith bloodshed), the western branch has several. The Two main leaders are the Lord of Oceans in Tabot, and the Dalai Lama of Ra-Khati. There is also third 'dark horse' trying to gain respect in the citystate of Bhutan. Interestingly, the Lord of Oceans is still given respect as the leader of the church by the eastern (Shou) branch, even if they do not follow his edicts (much the way Protestants still respect the Catholic Pope). However, within his own country, the southern Gompas (Temples) are becomeing 'rebellious', thanks to the influence of the Citystate of Bhutan over the region. The Dalai Lama is technically the leader of the church in Ra-Khati and Khazari, although the Khazari Temples operate much as the Eastern ones do, and follow their own rules (and are further split once again down two main branches).
One last note of interst on the Padhran Faith - that branch of The Way has the same basic tenents as the eastern (mostly philosophy), but has also incorporated a large number of gods into its faith called Padhrasattvas (the regular version of the Faith doesn't focus on Gods so much, but rather smaller, local spirits). All the Padhrasattvas are ascended mortals, and the list even includes several from the West (like Cyric).
The Travellers and the Nine Immortals
There is a third 'faith', but it is more like a form of ancestor worship then a true Faith, and like the other two religions, most common folk of Kara-Tur pay lip service to it as well. This is the Faith of the Nine Immortals. Once again, there is some confusion as to whom or what the Nine Immortals are. I, with some help from designer Brian James, have worked out that the Nine Travellers is actually an older version of the group, and the Travellers were Eight Immortals from the world the Shou interloped from. After a time on their new homeworld, it was decided that Mortals from Toril should ascend and take their place. One human, Chih Shih, was elevated to the ranks of the immortals after he helped defeat Tan Chin, and was then trained by the other Eight in his duties. One by one humans of virtue were chosen over the next few centuries, replacing the Eight Immortal interlopers. Chih Shih is therefore the only being to be a member of both the original group of Travellers, and their newer replacements. I also assume that these original Eight Immortals (The Travellers) are now retired from their former duties of watching over the living people of kara-Tur, and have become the Lords of Karma mentioned in the K-T material.
Monkey is an enigma - he is 'accepted' by all Faiths of kara-Tur (including the southern Vedic Pantheon and the Northern barbarians!) Although considered part of the Celsetial Bureaucracy by the Celstial Emperor, he is the only being in Kara-Tur that does not defer to the Emperor's wishes unless he wants to (causing much consternation).
Hope that helps - if you need any maps, let me know.
Cheers --- Mark |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Oct 2008 01:28:26 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 08:03:44
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Yep. I'm looking forward to that Kara-Tur netbook, Markustay... but I can wait if you're working full-steam on the world map.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 01:33:48
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Can't wait to read it. 
I'm hoping to have a small piece done shortly on the Kokaha Steppes - my own adaption of the OA WE material that I managed to shoe-horn in-between Petan and Malatra - as a preview of the K-T stuff. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Oct 2008 01:34:16 |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2008 : 22:36:08
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I've been quite looking forward to this netbook ever since I'd heard of it.
The overview of the religions is helpful though, Markus... I can't believe I'd missed this thread up until now. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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MirrorMirror
Acolyte
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2008 : 04:46:37
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I have always been a huge fan of Kara Tur and Malatra (as well as Maztica).
I am interested in any information that I can find on that part of the Realms |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2008 : 20:53:59
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| Markus, (or anyone else), what's the situation on language in Kara-tur? The FRCS gives a decent rundown on language in the Realms and mentions Shou... do they have a Common tongue? Is it the same Common that is spoken in Faerun? Are there more regional languages, or does everyone speak Shou or (different dialects of the it)? |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2008 : 05:04:00
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| -Kara-Tur is somewhat unique, in that it is mentioned that there is a 'trade' tongue, but that translators and understanding various languages is stressed. The most widely spoken language would be Kao Te Shou, the official language of Shou Lung, and the basis of T'u Lung, the language of T'u Lung, of the grammar structure and many words of Koroyo, the language of Koroyo, and heavily influencing Laothan, the language spoken by the tribes of the southern Jungles. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2008 : 06:37:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Monkey is an enigma - he is 'accepted' by all Faiths of kara-Tur (including the southern Vedic Pantheon and the Northern barbarians!) Although considered part of the Celsetial Bureaucracy by the Celstial Emperor, he is the only being in Kara-Tur that does not defer to the Emperor's wishes unless he wants to (causing much consternation).
We know that the Realms has many Beast Lords, including Sneel (rats), Roofdrak (dogs), Besparr (horses), Remnis (eagles), etc. But a monkey Beast Lord has not been mentioned/claimed so far. I think Kara-Tur's Monkey could be the actual Beast Lord of Monkeys for the Realms. He probably isn't known in Faerūn because he prefers to spend most of his time in Kara-Tur, messing with the Celestial Bureaucracy and the Eastern pantheons. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2008 : 17:47:57
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His ONLY business with Faerūn proper would be in regards to MonkeySpiders, which are tiny simians, NOT arachnids.
He may have some interest in Chult and what few other Faerūnian Realms have jungles, but he is probably known under another (local) name there. He may also be worshipped by some of the more neutrally-aligned Taer of the Unapproachable east.
He also has a CANON interest in Maztica - he has twice in the past lead groups of Kara-Turans to that land (once through the "land of the dead" {the Shadowfel?}, and once through the Underdark, IIRC).
He is more of a 'protector of the downtrodden', then a Beastlord, but I supppose he could have taken that portfolio upon himself, and was in fact originally one of the Beastlords. In this regard, he appears very similar to the Black Leopard, but that being (Bauhei) takes himself far too seriously for Monkey's taste (although the two would most certainly work together for the right cause).
Other Beastlords and Animal Generals:
Ed used the Melnibonean Pantheon's 'Beastlords' for his Realms originally, and thats where we get Roofdrak. I doubt we could legally use him in the published realms (I'm assuming he was in that way-back article of Ed's?)
BTW, we are once again on the same page - when I write-up the Celestial Bureaucracy for the Netbook, I have it where Monkey is indeed 'officially' the Beastlord of Simians, under the Animal General of land-beasts, Nobanion. There are two other Generals for air and water, and all of those are supposed to answer to Malar (believe it or not). This last paragraph is all non-canon, but I need to get all of these things some type of organization, considering the CB is supposed to be the most organized panthoen in the cosmos (outside of Nirvana). Don't worry, though - I'm not creating any 'weirdness'.... Malar NEVER shows up for work. 
In fact, the Celestial Emperor has given nearly all of the western gods a position in the Bureaucracy, but only a handful bother with the job (some of that is canon, since the Padhran faith uses some western deities, and THAT is part of K-T religions).
Languages
I've gone over all my language stuff in the K-T redux thread over at WotC. What I put together (which I'm not working on at all currently) is a list of all languages and dialects, akin to Tom Costa's wonderful Speaking in Tongues Dragon article, which will include a table of 'understandability' between the various dialects.
As Dagnarion has said, MOST of K-T languages are based on Kao Te Shou, which in turn is mostly based on the Shou (Interloper) language, with many Imaskar (Roushoum - which itself is a Mujhari dialect) bits added-in after the Shou became part of Imaskar's Empire. Since that time a good deal of Han (the language of the orignal Lung people) has become part of kao Te Shou, and parts of it have been incorporated into other tongues.
Nearly all (except, perhaps, the Issacortae and Kuong Kingdoms) languages of K-T are inter-related, but the landmass is so vast that people on one end of the empire won't necessarily understand people on the other.
The Trade Tongue is mostly Kao Te Shou, with lot of adds from other tongues. It works very similar to the way common does in the Realms, but unlike the Realms, you won't always find speakers in the many (tens of thousands) small villages throughout Kara-Tur. Whereas the Common Language is quickly becoming THE language of the Realms, the Trade Tongue is still mostly just used by travellers - Merchants, itinerant workers, soldiers, adventurers, etc... bureaucrats are expected to know 'High Shou', which is the court tongue and the only one legally recognized by the Gov't for official documents. However, most politicians - especially those assigned to outlying provinces - learn the Trade Tongue as well.
Whats interesting to note is that the Trade Tongue uses words like 'Samurai', 'Bushi', and 'Ninja' - Kao Te Shou has it's own words for those concepts. Like I said, a great deal of the language of the aboriginal Lung people has made it's way into common parlance, but that language is only spoken in it's purist forms on the Island nations of Wa and Kozakura, and in the land of Koryo... and that's still pretty different then it was originally thousands of years ago. Perhaps the primitive Wu-Haltai people still speak the pure form, since they had the least amount of contact with other cultures.
When I do get around to the language chart, I will be basing it on the cultural inter-mixing I have worked out for the region. that is why all the history (and timeline) MUST come frst. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Dec 2008 17:15:43 |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2008 : 03:02:06
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Dragon 54 FR Beastlords, with origin:
Aslan -- Lions, LG. C.S. Lewis.
Besparr -- Horses, CG. Ed Greenwood original.
Camazotz -- Bats, CE. D&DG, Central American Mythos.
Fileet -- Birds, CN. D&DG, Melnibonéan.
Haaashastaak -- Lizards, N. D&DG, Melnibonéan.
Hlyyaak -- Camels, CG. Ed Greenwood original.
Lolth -- Spiders, CE. D&DG, Nonhuman.
Lurue -- Talking Beasts, CG. Ed Greenwood original.
Meerclar -- Cats, CN. D&DG, Melnibonéan.
Nnuuurrrrcc -- Insects, N. D&DG, Melnibonéan.
Nuru-ah -- Cattle, N. D&DG, Melnibonéan.
Pyaray -- Octopus, Lord of the Ocean Abysses, CE. D&DG, Melnibonéan.
Repra -- Serpents, CE. Ed Greenwood name, based on Apep (D&DG, Egyptian).
Roofdrak -- Dogs, N. D&DG, Melnibonéan.
Sneel -- Rats, CE. Ed Greenwood name, based on the Rat God (D&DG, Newhon).
The ones in italics are the ones that would need a renaming/replacing (though Aslan has already been renamed Nobanion, and Meerclar's role is taken by Sharess/Bast). |
Edited by - see on 12 Dec 2008 03:02:44 |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2008 : 21:59:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Languages
I've gone over all my language stuff in the K-T redux thread over at WotC. What I put together (which I'm not working on at all currently) is a list of all languages and dialects, akin to Tom Costa's wonderful Speaking in Tongues Dragon article, which will include a table of 'understandability' between the various dialects.
What issue of Dragon was that, do you know? |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2008 : 00:20:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Languages
I've gone over all my language stuff in the K-T redux thread over at WotC. What I put together (which I'm not working on at all currently) is a list of all languages and dialects, akin to Tom Costa's wonderful Speaking in Tongues Dragon article, which will include a table of 'understandability' between the various dialects.
What issue of Dragon was that, do you know?
Dragon Annual #4. |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2008 : 01:36:58
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| Cool beans. Thanks, guys. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2008 : 18:44:10
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| I appreciate it, but I have all my old issues of Dragon, they're just packed away at the moment. Its just a matter going into the boxes (which I intend to do anyhow for other stuff). |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 17:50:00
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Thank You for reprinting that list, see.
I don't think Lolth would show up for work either.
I'm thinking that Zenassu had the Spider Portfolio first in Realmspace, but then lost it when he lost the battle with Qysara Shoon V, and then was killed by Selvatarm while his his power was at an all-time low.
Lolth then wound up with it by default, since she probably held it during her brief tenure as an Archfiend. I really doubt she wanted it, despite her obvious love of spiders. What greater Deity wants to bother with being a 'Beastlord'?
As for the names, I think a little transpositioning is in order. For instance, I would rename Roofdrak to Rūfdraak, to make it more Faerūnian. Another would be Tiilea for Fileet (combining with a similar goddess- Tyaa - from the Newhon Pantheon).
I would just say that Ibrandul is Haaashataak's Faerūnian aspect (although that means we need a new one, anyway). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Dec 2008 17:50:52 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 17:56:13
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| -Technically, only Lolth has the Spider Portfolio in the Drow pantheon. Zanassu wouldn't technically have had it, since he was a Demon Lord, and not an actual deity- and thus, did not have portfolios, as opposed to areas of influence that came to define the entity. Selvatarm transformed into his current incarnation after absorbing Zanassu, but doesn't seem to have absorbed anything other than his evil, and his (seeming) appearance. Though, deities being globs of energy, as they are... |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 18:29:30
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But thats taking the older approach to fiends, which never made much sense, but TSR was 'walking on eggshells' at one time concerning Demonic material in D&D.
I have always held that Archfiends (as Zanassu was) could grant spells, and was of equal power to a demi-god. This si supported now by 4e mechanics, where both such being fall under the heading of 'Exarchs'.
Gods have 'religions', and everyone else has 'cults', but thats just a matter of semantics, and mechanically they work the same.
Anyhow, to bring this back around OT, I would think that Beatslords also fall into that 'Exarch' category, which would mean that they are on the same footing as Archfiends, and I can't see one couldn't be both (perhaps being known in one sphere as fiend, and another as a demi-power?)
It would make some sense in as much that some demons look a hell of a lot like certain animals, and they could have had such portfolios at one time - perhaps before becoming 'corrupted'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 18:54:51
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| -Why does it not make sense that Demon Lords / Archdevils not have portfolios? They are not divine creatures (though on par with them), so why should they have portfolios, which are writs given to deities by the overdeity for the deity to "look after"? Of course, it applies for other entities as well- Eladrin Queens, Primus the One and Primary, Slaadi Lords, etc. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 21:10:37
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| I've always treated non-divine entities (such as archfiends) as not having defined portfolios but rather a sphere of influence or interest. As Dagnirion says, portfolios are handed down (or, at least, enforced) by Ao... and non-gods who can grant spells just choose an area that fancies their personal interests or power. Of course, should any ever ascend to true godhood (such as Gargauth), they join Ao's power scheme and must adhere to the rules of the gods. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2009 : 00:05:17
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I Google Markustay and Kara-Tur and it led me here, heh heh.
Well, apologies for the little thread necromancy here, but I have a question for Markustay.
Have you stopped the Kara-Tur project? Or is it still being worked on? Particularly, I ask about the maps because I am highly interested in the completed version of your Kara-Tur maps. They're done so awesomly and I bow to your efforts in humility. But I am concerned as to the ETA on it? Much appreciated if you can grant an answer. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 17:42:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have always held that Archfiends (as Zanassu was) could grant spells, and was of equal power to a demi-god. This is supported now by 4e mechanics, where both such being fall under the heading of 'Exarchs'.
Actually, there is a - very nice - 2e Planescape sourcebook that supports this idea, "On Hallowed Ground" (see from page 49 on). I think one could easily bring this idea to the Realms. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Informtion on Kara Tur
