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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2013 : 20:00:47

One thing that always puzzled me was that it was never explained or quantified exactly what a primordial is.

Plenty of things have been stated as being primordial (some I think are labelled as such incorrectly), but again it leaves us no closer as to what a primordial is.

Now we know what gods are, divine entities created from the thought of it's worshippers manifested on the outer planes. From what I understand the astral plane acts as a conduit between the material plane and the outer plane.

So what is a primordial, a common theme seems to be that they dwell on the material plane, they have a single physical body. They have varying levels of power, they can grant spells. Which is a lot to encompass in one category

Now excuse me while I ramble a bit here but i'm trying to sort a muddle in my own head as well as the lore.

So how about in the beginning was the elemental planes that mixed together in the beginnings of the material plane - forming a massive soup of the elements.

In order to eke out territories, what if the elemental lords/princes/kings/whatever you want to call them, created the planets themselves by accident in order to create a stable environment for their subjects to dwell on. Earth elementals required a land mass so the planet was formed. Fire elementals required fire so the planet was filled with lava. Water elementals required water so the planet was covered with water. Air elementals required air so the planet was given an atmosphere. And viola you have the planet and the material plane.

No longer a soup of chaos but a plane with rules and structure, and most importantly life. Now I have no idea how souls fit in but elementals have thoughts and personalities. What if the mixing of these elements into a planet gave the planet itself a being, a life filled with the energy of the inner planes.

A being of immense power that was essentially alone in the universe. So this planet spawn's children. This is how the primordials come into being, essentially paragon ancestors of the creatures we see in Toril now. Relkath the bear for instance could be the first example of a bear, a pure supreme specimen of a bear, massive in size and strength and ferocity.

Many of these creatures would be formed, either with intent or by accident from events happening on Toril's surface - the first volcano gives birth to that magma primordial for instance.

Now how do Shar and Selune fit into this. I am pretty sure I read somewhere that they were formed immediately after the primordials from a silvery astral pool. This suggests to me that they are gods, or maybe they are something in between.

Maybe Shar and Selune were primordials. The darkness given sentience is Shar and an asteroid crashing into Toril's surface cause a budding off to form the moon (like our own moon) and this forms Selune. Maybe the primordials worship these two primordials themselves and then Shar and Selune become the first gods. Primordials worshipped to such an extent that they become deities in the end.

If Shar and Selune were primordials they would certainly be the most powerful. THe moon is massive and so must contain more of Toril's power than the other primordials, and Shar is the void itself given mass and sentience so is even bigger.

If they were primordials then that explains how this war of light and darkness had physical effects. The primordials plead their more powerful sisters to make Toril more habitable so they themselves can spawn children.

Shar being jealous and cruel wont help but Selune creates the sun which Shar smothers (and possibly extinguishes) with the aid of an allied primordial Dendar the night serpent maybe.

A big war ensues with Shar and her allies on one side and Selune and her allies on the other. A war Selune comes close to losing until she hurls massive chunks of herself at Shar - que a titanic explosion and the formation of Mystra.

In the process Selune and Shar and Mystra are elevated to godhood through the worship/adulation of their allies at such awesome displays of power.

Selune forms the sun (again because I think there were two suns in Toril's history) and the primordials get busy creating the lesser creatures that populate the planet today.

And there we go, my idea for where the primordials come from and what they are - The children of Toril.

If it isn't from the prime material plane (or possibly inner elemental planes, or faerie) then it isn't a primordial. Faerie I think is different, that is almost like a planet that became an entire plane so the rulers of faerie are more like primordials than deities.

I think that the rulers of hell and the abyss got labelled as primordials but I prefer the idea that they are cosmic entities that span the multiverse. They aren't gods because they don't need worshippers, but they are born of ideas and ideals (like gods) and are probably invested their power by the outer planes themselves.

I'm sure there will be plenty of people to point out holes in this theory in moments

Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1093 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 18:21:56

As far as know a primordial is "just" basically an interplanar creature from the begining of time, not unlike a deity, but without divine ranks. Dendar the night Serpant being one of them. I believe that Asmodeus, Atropus, some of the Time Lords are actual Primordials as well... And when I think about it, I belive that Tharizdun also was one.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 21:21:41

So what is the connection between beings such as Magthaera (or whatever the primordial beneath gauntlgrym is called), Telos who as far as we know from the lore just appeared, and Asmodeus.

There doesn't seem to be any, they just labelled anything that isn't a god as a primordial instead. That doesn't work for me.

Asmodeus is the embodiment of lawful evil, depending on which books (some non FR), he is undoubtedly ancient maybe even existing since the beginning of time. Is he a primordial because he rules Baator or because of his past. What about Mephistopheles and Baal, they rule layers of hell, are they primordials too, if so the beginning of time thing doesn't work.

Demogorgon probably counts as a primordial but he wasn't around since the beginning of time.

I'm not really bothered about the mechanics - divine rank 0 means nothing to me, its just a way to explain that he can grant spells and have super powers and not be killed. Which to be honest is unnecessary and doesn't help explain what a primordial is, just what it can do.

Even then these mechanics aren't consistent. Asmodeus was impossible to kill in 3rd edition because he was essentially a god of Baator, and the physical devil looking body was really just an avatar of that massive snake hidden at the bottom of the last layer.

Now he is a primordial and from what I have seen about certain lost gods that were killed by the dark three they are all to easily killed, and permanently so.

That's why I don't think anything on the outer planes can be a primordial. The outerplanes are about thought, ideas, worship, souls. The elemental planes are about the elements, about life and that all mixed together to form the material plane.

I realise I am trying to reconcile a 4th edition idea to 3rd edition and even 2nd edition cosmology (no tree for me) but categorising the world around us (even an imaginary world) is vital for understanding it.

I have the following categories at the moment:
Deities - beings powered by worship that live on the outer planes.
Cosmic Entities - ancient planar ideals created or invested by the outer plane themselves
Primordials - ? I would like that all the so called random demigods that have been detailed (the yuirwood pantheon, the lost gods, anything uthgar killed, the earthmother and her children) to all be primordials, beings born of and linked to the planet somehow, powerful, ageless, but killable

Obviously there is room for cross over. A primordial can become a god with worship (like a mortal), or I guess a cosmic entity if the plane he goes to finds him to be the embodiment of one of it's ideals.

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11809 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 23:23:43

Just a note on Selune and what she is... Selune is the moon goddess to the people of Toril... but she's also the goddess of the stars, the night sky, etc.... essentially she's the goddess of all realmspace (stress on space). the stars are just gems twinkling in the shell of realmspace's crystal sphere. So, essentially she was initially to a degree the goddess of all substance in Toril's crystal sphere. Shar was "the absence of substance"... or the dark space between.

Selune however was constantly either taking substance from somewhere else (such as the first sun) and endowing it with divine energy OR spinning divine energy from herself in order to make other deities (such as the creation of Mystryl).

What I'd be intrigued with in this kind of discussion is actually Chauntea. Is Chauntea the god of only Toril? Are there other "world" deities for the other worlds in realmspace? If there are, are they also deities on Toril (for instance, Umberlee the sea god, is she the "world god" for Karpri... Ghaunadar, is he the world god of Glyth with its weird structure... etc...)? Where did Chauntea come from? Is she actually a primordial or some kind of amalgamation of multiple nature spirits that combined to form a god?

Also, throw in another category to your list. Archfey. Are these beings "primordials"? I don't believe so. They're similar but different... and much more magically inclined... and much more "fey".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11809 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2013 : 23:31:48

I do agree with the idea that Asmodeus as a primordial makes not a bit of sense. Not sure where that's stated, but yeah, it makes no sense. What I see the powerful fiends as are souls that have attained a level of power after death. Unlike deities who are somewhat controlled by their worshippers, these are beings that learn to empower themselves by maybe committing foul acts (such as absorbing and destroying other souls, but also simply committing evil acts). The difference between them and a deity is a deity absorbs their worshippers souls and take on the worshippers attributes... the fiend absorbs simply the raw power of the soul, but none of its character. Thus, most gods consider the acts of fiends despicable. Maybe that would work for your definition?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1093 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 07:51:57

I think that based on what I know, that I personally woulc categorize Asmodeus as a Primordial who became a god or what ever he is.

What I could find on the matter was this: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Primordial

How reliable this information is I am unsure of.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 08:42:44

Archfey has been thrown about a lot lately, but what i hear from them is that they are more like primordials than say Asmodeus.

The plane of Faerie in itself is a massive life generating plane (unlike the outerplanes which generate only outsiders, and probably had a number of creatures from the material plane migrate their to become extraplanar). The inner planes create elementals - the stuff of elements given sentience (although not necessarily a soul and probably not the ability to have children).

Faerie has spawned a number of races that can have children and indeed migrated to Toril at several points in it's history.

Elves we know definitely migrated to Toril from Faerie, and likely were born on that plane. Markustay has proposed several times that orcs came from Faerie as well, it would certainly explain the hatred between the elf and orc gods which predates their arrival on Toril.

So Faerie itself seems to be a plane that behaves like a planet in that it spawns life that can in turn create more life. Most importantly life with a soul that in turn fuels the outer planes.

So these archfey would seem to me to be more primordial like than anything - just because they dwell on another plane doesnt necessarily make them different if they fit the existing mould. These archfey/primordials created and or spawned many many children.

The created children would probably be primordials themselves - such as Gruumsh and the orc gods, and Corellon and the seldarine. The spawned children would likely be mortals as recognised today close to the eladrin/elves and orcs that are present on Toril now.

Those mortal children in turn elevated their creators to deities by worshipping them.

I envisage this being a similar route to the creation of giants and their gods. Annam mated with Othea to create Lanaxis and the first generation of his children which were comparable to elder titans in power and most likely primordials. These children in turn created their own children which were the different giant races. Those races worshipped their creators and elevated them to deity status. But in the case of the giants all this happened on the material plane rather than Faerie, but it's still the same process.

As for Selune, if the same route has occured many times. What she is now is separate from Selune in the beginning (if she was a primordial). The war of light and darkness was manifested on the material plane - the extinguishing of the sun, the battle between their primordial allies, and the physical attack on shar to create Mystryl. All events that were witnessed and written into history.

These events could not have happened if the two were deities because they dwell on separate planes and any actions they took would not be visible to humans (see the dawn cataclysm as an example of an event that we know nothing about because it did not take place on the material plane therefore there was nothing to witness it). There could have been events on the material plane involving avatars but that probably wouldnt have the same effect - ie two godly avatars fighting does not result in the creation of another deity (the orcgate wars, tiamat and gilgeam, the time of troubles).

Whereas if they were primordials in the beginning - albeit two of the biggest primordials ever known. Then their fight would have been titanic and awe inspiring even to other primordials.

Imagine if the moon suddenly split in two and fired itself at the gigantic cloud of darkness threatening to swallow the planet, then in a blinding flash of light that illuminated the sky a being of light was born, that is magic. There you have the beginnings of worship and the first three deities.

I dont know what to do with Chauntea. She doesnt seem very primordial like. I think Toril itself is something other than a primordial - maybe a massive conduit to the elemental planes that spews out these primordials, for some unknown purpose, maybe just to create the perfect lifeform. I dont think Toril itself has a sentience of it's own, maybe just a vague instinct like an animal, a desire to create life.

Chauntea was probably created purely through worship. An idea that took form and became a god. He/she doesnt seem like the embodiment of the planet itself, nor have i ever read anything about him/her creating children or having a physical effect on Toril.

The earthmother however, i think may have been a primordial and may be the moonshaes itself, she has certainly created many children herself over the years (the unicorcn, the leviathan, the wolfpack) and is undoubtedly a very fey area. Maybe the earthmother came from faerie to settle on Toril, maybe she was just spawned by toril in the same manner as the others.

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 13:22:52

Homebrew Musings:
I don't think of Asmodeus as a Primordial, he was something else (an uber-arch-angel or some-such) that 're-invented himself'. He belonged to that class of beings I call Tezu (a distinction that no loner exists - it means 'servant' in some primal deific tongue). The term 'tanar' is specialized type of tezu - an elemental one. Greater Tanar (lords) we know as Djen (genies).

The prefix 'ba' indicates a tendency toward evil (thus, the Batrachi were originally simply 'trachi'), usually referred to (in game terms) as 'taint'. The suffix 'ri' indicates a form of corruption and a tendency toward chaos.

That original group - the Tezu - have since (in untold milenia) split-off in thousands of splinter groups with specific agendas. The closest thing to the originals would be the Oni of the Celestial Bureaucracy, because despite their personal tendencies, they still all follow their duties to the bureaucracy (although, apparently, many are left 'unassigned' for long stretches of time). Asmodeus would have been one of the greatest of the Tezu (what we would now call an 'archangel' in modern nomenclature... which really didn't apply at all back then).

Above them sat the Ordials, the least of which were the Prime Ordials (Primordials), which were more like the foremen in the chain-of-command. Ordials were in-charge of the various forces of the universe - energies and elements, conditions and states (including emotions, which are just another form of energy). Prime Ordials were directly attached to elements, being of the lowest order (which later became the Material Plane).

All of these beings worked toward building the original universe, over-writing 'the nothing' (The Far Realms) which pre-existed everything. Then the (First?) Godwar happened, the Universe was torn asunder, and everyone 'took sides' (lots of blame was being thrown around, and in all these years, many beings still hold grudges). Some folks blame some sort of 'Elder elemental Evil' (Cthon/Cthulhu) for insighting the Godwar, and although there may have been 'outside influences', at the end of the day it was their own faults (mostly jealousy).

Like I said, Asmodeus was one of the most powerful - perhaps THE most powerful of these 'divine servants'. Primordials were the lowest tier of ordials, so he would have been nearly on-par with them.

Above the prime Ordials sit the tiers of Siderial and Eternal, and above the order of Ordials is the Supernals - all equal, each responsible for one of the 11 dimensions, and all are part of 'The One', which some say still exist, and others say no longer exists since its 'mind' was splintered into the Supernals. Evidence exists that both are true (at these levels of power, reality itself is questionable). If 'The One' still exists at all, it may be more akin to 'the Force' of Star Wars, rather then an actual, specific being.

So Asmodeus is in there, and pretty 'high up' from a mortal view point (above even many deities), but he is still fairly low on the totem pole in the greater, cosmic scheme of things.

Deities, on the other hand, are a mixed bag. 'Deity' is merely a template that other beings (most often mortals, surprisingly) can obtain. I have way deeper thoughts on that, but this post is already over-long. Gray has compared these 'godly beings' to amoebas, but I liken the entire structure to a Lava Lamp, ever-changing, with clusters constantly breaking-apart and reforming. All are part of some greater whole. What is 'True' today may not be true tomorrow. Bear-in-mind this is almost completely homebrew.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 31 Oct 2013 13:28:06

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 13:57:10

Ooh, i like the idea of gods as amoeba. I always thought of them as parasite - leeching off the souls of the dead - and that the afterlife was one great big con to trick people into ending up in their divine realm where they can devour your soul energy until there is nothing left.

I have read many theories on Asmodeus on different boards and i liked the best that Asmodeus is merely the latest vessel for whatever that massive worm monster is at the bottom of Nessus (Jazirian or his brother Ahriman i can never remember which one or even their names properly). Lucifer was a previous vessel and was cast off when he was no longer needed or suitable.

If asmodeus was an arch angel and primordials are the lowest order of these arch angel then they are all from the outer planes. But i'm pretty sure the outer planes came second when the first beings on the newly formed material plane conceptualised gods and hell and heaven etc.

So the archangels came second. So where did the beings come from whose thoughts created the outer planes.

Admittedly i am just going off my giant lore here, but a primordial has been seen/used to create life. I dont know that the same is true of a deity and in fact i would say this is not possible because outsiders have no soul (ie when they die they die, they dont go to an outer outer plane) so they cannot create something with a soul.

Thats why i think elemental planes came first. Created the material plane which spawned primordials who created the first gods with their worship and also spawned the lesser races as their children.

In any other order it doesnt quite fit, in my mind anyway.

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 14:08:42

I don't follow the story in Guide to Hell precisely, but I love it as allegory (such a great word for us to bend canon any which way we want).

I picture Lucifer's relation with Asmodeus as something similar to Jergal's relationship with FR's death gods. He is subordinate, but he will always be there. Someone always has to 'train the new guy'. Being subordinate, BTW (on cosmic levels) doesn't necessarily mean 'less powerful'.

For instance, I think when a being is 'in charge' of something, he is nearly all-powerful in relation to that. We usually call these 'portfolios'. Ao's portfolio is Realmsopace - he is the 'project manager' in charge of that particular sphere, and as such, the primordials must answer to him there. Outside of Realmspace, they may be able to 'kick his arse' for all we know - he has no power outside of the sphere (as far as we know).

Think of the multiverse as humongous corporation - lots of beings are 'all powerful' within their own, little 'sphere'. Outside of that, they have very little control. In fact - now that I think about it - 'deity' may be a way of obtaining extra power a being shouldn't have, by tapping-into souls (and spheres) not normally open to them. It like 'shmoozing at the watercooler' in those big corporations - you don't want to keep all your eggs in one basket, so you broaden your options. If 'downsizing' leaves you without a job, you got friends in other divisions.

So yeah, the universe is The Matrix, gods are the programmers, other outsiders are the tech guys, and we are just the power source.

Cthulhu/Cthon is the Trojan Virus.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 31 Oct 2013 14:11:44

Demzer
Senior Scribe

877 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 14:25:58

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
For instance, I think when a being is 'in charge' of something, he is nearly all-powerful in relation to that. We usually call these 'portfolios'. Ao's portfolio is Realmsopace - he is the 'project manager' in charge of that particular sphere, and as such, the primordials must answer to him there. Outside of Realmspace, they may be able to 'kick his arse' for all we know - he has no power outside of the sphere (as far as we know).

I don't think this point is correct, and here's why: Celestian, the Oerth deity that helped Waukeen get off the Prime during the Time of Troubles, refused to carry Lliira too (that was traveling with Waukeen up to that point) on the basis that he would risk angering Ao by heping a friend (Waukeen) but wouldn't risk doubling his anger (smuggling away two goddesses) for someone he didn't know well (Lliira).
So it seems that Celestian at least believed that he would've attracted Ao's attention if he tried to help both goddesses and that was something he wasn't ready to risk for all that Waukeen and Lliira had to offer.
Meaning that he was afraid Ao would go b***h-slapping him on Oerth or force someone on Oerth to b***h-slap Celestian by proxy. That's something you can't do if you aren't powerful enough.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 14:31:30

Im with you on all of that. Why else would everyone want to be a deity unless it allowed you lots of extra power and the added extra of being immortal and impossible to kill unless you go to the divine realm they dwell in (where they are at their most powerful) and kill them there.

As for the cosmic entities (ie gods on the outer planes that do not derive their power from direct worship in a single sphere), such as Asmodeus. I prefer the theory that the planes themselves have a sort of sentience.

I'm drawing here from bits about the Abyss, in which it favoured on of the ancient demons first as the prince of demons and invested that creature (mishka the wolf spider, or some queen of darkness) and then abandoned that creature favouring Demogorgon at a later date. There are rumblings that the tanar'ri and therefore demogorgon may well be abandoned for a new form of demon (loumara i think) at some point in the future.

This idea of a plane having its own sentience of a sort (determined by the majority of the believes of the prime dwellers and what they believe about the plane itself), works well. This plane then picks it's own paragons, rulers with godly power on that plane (and substantial power on others), that behave like a deity and grant spells etc, but are not worshipped directly and so if they were a god should have none.

Thats how i distinguish Asmodeus from the gods anyways. He isn't a primordial, he is a cosmic entity now, although he may have been a primordial previously that was elevated to godhood (as Ahriman) and cast down becoming a primordial again, who fled to the outer planes and was bestowed with limitless power by the planes of hell itself.

And i just read about Chauntea begging for warmth from Selune and Shar so that he/she could give life. So that means Chauntea may well have been a primordial at some point. A very large and powerful primordial (from which all life originally sprang since Chauntea was Toril itself) but which was limited by a lack of energy (and could probably only created shadowed creatures until the sun arrived.

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 14:36:16

Ahhh, but I also picture their being some sort of 'court' you can bring transgressions to - something akin to Marvel Comic's Living Tribunal.

It doesn't mean he was afraid of Ao, it means there is a system in-place and rules that must be followed. If I am in charge of the mail-room, and you are in-charge of special orders, and you fire an employee you don't like (and have them escorted off the premises), YES, I can hire that employee back to work for me in my dept., but that would be 'bad form'. It doesn't mean I can't do it, it just means I shouldn't. If anything, I think Celestian just having the ability to bypass Ao's mandate supports MY point - thanks for that.

And while we are on the subject - Mystra and several others all tried other means to ascend back into the Heavens. Doesn't that mean Ao has no direct control over deities, other then just giving them orders? Much like how a boss doesn't physically control us, they just tell us what to do. We have 'free will' to obey or disobey (but we mostly obey, because of the consequences, which goes right back to how I started this post). He couldn't force them to stay on Toril, and he couldn't even close-down these alternates routes back in - all he could do was dictate.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 31 Oct 2013 14:43:32

Demzer
Senior Scribe

877 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 18:19:09

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Ahhh, but I also picture their being some sort of 'court' you can bring transgressions to - something akin to Marvel Comic's Living Tribunal.

Could be but see below

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It doesn't mean he was afraid of Ao,

I beg to differ, based on this from Faiths & Avatars, page 177:
"She left the mantle of her divinity with Lliira for safe-keeping, since Celestian adamantly would not risk offending such a powerful being as Ao by trying to transport Lliira, a goddess he did not even know, in addition to Waukeen."
To me it's not "i don't want to offend your boss out of courtesy" but rather "i don't want to offend your boss that can kick my butt from this crystal sphere to the next".

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If anything, I think Celestian just having the ability to bypass Ao's mandate supports MY point - thanks for that.

Nope. More from Faiths & Avatars, same page:
"Celestian agreed to repay the favor by transporting Waukeen off of Toril and into the Astral Plane and shielding her temporarily from Ao, but there was one sticking point�Ao was preventing all Realms deities from leaving Toril. In order to leave the Astral Plane and enter the Outer Planes, Waukeen would have to give up being a goddess. Because of the peculiar restrictions Ao had forced upon the powers in their avatar forms, Waukeen was able to shed her mantle of divinity, reducing herself to no more than an extremely powerful, but extremely knowledgeable, mortal."
This means neither Waukeen nor Celestian could do a thing about "deities can't leave Toril" so she was forced to leave her divinity behind and we all know how that ended. If we want to give Ao some bad reputation we could say he wasn't insightful enough to predict some deities would try such means and more, but maybe he accounted for them, and wanted their failures to speak for him about the deities' incompetence.
Re-reading that passage i find surprising that Celestian even had the power to shield Waukeen-without-divinity from Ao, even just "temporarily", suggesting that Ao's power while greater than that of gods has some limit when we talk about non divine beings, thus he isn't omnipotent (kind of hilarious if a joint venture of all the most powerful "mortals" could b***h-slap Ao while all the deities are powerless against him).

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And while we are on the subject - Mystra and several others all tried other means to ascend back into the Heavens. Doesn't that mean Ao has no direct control over deities, other then just giving them orders? Much like how a boss doesn't physically control us, they just tell us what to do. We have 'free will' to obey or disobey (but we mostly obey, because of the consequences, which goes right back to how I started this post). He couldn't force them to stay on Toril, and he couldn't even close-down these alternates routes back in - all he could do was dictate.

As far as i know, no cast away deity succeeded in getting back to it's home plane, no deity got past the Celestial Staircase (that can still be counted as Prime Material Plane since it coexist there and in a lot of other places) and nobody left Toril with its divinity intact (Waukeen left Toril as a super duper human but not as a deity). Meaning they all failed. I can try to fight a round against a professional martial artist and i would fail, miserably, the simple fact i tried doesn't reduce the skill, strength and proficiency of the martial artist. The fact many tried (who else? i only know of Mystra and the Waukeen and Lliira duo) and all failed it's further proof Ao locked things tight enough.

Now, we can start to argue the finer points, like what would have happened if Helm was cast away with the others? Who would have guarded the Celestial Staircase then? What if a coalition of deities succesfully punched through Helm, even briefly, maybe someone kept him busy while others run past him? What about multiple coordinated attacks with Helm forced to split in avatars? Would have he been able in avatar form to hold the line against more than one other deity? Who are the other "Ao's watchdogs" posted around the deities homeplanes that are hinted at in the same place of Faiths & Avatars?

Dazzlerdal, i'm sorry for all this off-topicness.

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 19:32:49

We will have to agree to disagree, then. Reading what you quoted, I do not see Celestian 'quaking in is boots'; its more like why I don't drive over 55 (because I don't want to get pulled over and then have to spend a day in court).

Am I afraid of the police? Only in as much as they can make my life miserable.

The simple fact is Celestian was not only able to work-around the mandate of an Overgod from a different sphere, but he went ahead and did so for Waukeen (it only failed because Graz'zt betrayed them).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11809 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 19:36:09

Just a note, Celestian may not have worried about being affected by Ao even on Greyhawk. He may have simply said "well, one day one of my followers might come to this world... and give me a toehold... at that time I'll have to ask this guy Ao if I can come over.... he may forgive me for helping a friend, but he might not forgive me helping some random chick that he's trying to make an example of".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Demzer
Senior Scribe

877 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 19:54:15

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Reading what you quoted, I do not see Celestian 'quaking in is boots'; its more like why I don't drive over 55 (because I don't want to get pulled over and then have to spend a day in court).

Am I afraid of the police? Only in as much as they can make my life miserable.

Sure, he's not quaking (and in fact he agrees to smuggle Waukeen in exchange for a favor) but he doesn't say he didn't want to get on Ao's bad side because he's Waukeen's boss or an Overgod, it says he refused to offend "such a powerful being as Ao". So it's not the office of Ao that causes Celestian adamant refusal, it's his power.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The simple fact is Celestian was not only able to work-around the mandate of an Overgod from a different sphere, but he went ahead and did so for Waukeen (it only failed because Graz'zt betrayed them).

Eh, Celestian smuggled a goddess out of Toril? No? Then he didn't work-around anything. Ao's dictates were to prevent deities from getting back to their homeplanes, did Celestian get Waukeen with her full divine essence to her homeplane? No, he got her to the Astral Plane as a mortal.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We will have to agree to disagree, then.

Fair enough, i just don't see why you want so much to see this thing as a failure of Ao when he got what he wanted (no deities back until he said so) while Waukeen was stranded for years in Graz'zt hands. Celestian actually got out for the better, he repayed his debt with Waukeen and he hasn't won the enmity of Ao since his actions changed nothing.

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36798 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 02:36:59

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The simple fact is Celestian was not only able to work-around the mandate of an Overgod from a different sphere, but he went ahead and did so for Waukeen (it only failed because Graz'zt betrayed them).

Eh, Celestian smuggled a goddess out of Toril? No? Then he didn't work-around anything. Ao's dictates were to prevent deities from getting back to their homeplanes, did Celestian get Waukeen with her full divine essence to her homeplane? No, he got her to the Astral Plane as a mortal.

That is correct. Waukeen had to set aside her divinity, and passed it to her friend Llira. Had Waukeen managed to leave the Realms as a deity, Graz'zt would not have been able to hold her when the ToT ended.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 14:28:12

Just a further thought about primordials and their creation.

It does seem that there is a pyramid of sorts for their power and that the older first generation primordials were more powerful than the ones that come later.

So Selune, Chauntea/Toril, Shar were the first and largest and most powerful.

They each spawned children either spontaneously or with each other. Maybe Chauntea and Shar collaborating together created the shadevari who sound like primordials to me. Arakhor also sound like primordials spawned by Chauntea as well.

These children were less powerful, but still god like in power. Wars happened some became deities etc time goes one. The primordials continue to have children that eventually spawn the lesser races - humans, giants, sarrukh, batrachi, aeree, etc.

It appears however that primordials were/are still being produced. These must have been much lesser in power and maybe on a par with demigods or even lesser than that.

More importantly it looks like power transfers from primordials to whoever kills it. Maybe not in every instance, but Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal killed several of what could now be considered primordials.

Uthgar may also have done something similar, although he may not have killed the primordial, merely defeated it. I wonder at one point did Uthgar tame these primordials, and what was his exact route to godhood.

Did he ascend straight away upon his death, or did he become a powerful servant of Tempus - i have seen the term exarch bandied about a bit since 4e, but i have no idea what it refers to. Maybe he became a favoured representative of Tempus, and used his newfound power to best several primordials in the north (elrem, the grandfather tree, the blue bear, the sky pony, the red tiger, etc). Then using the power bestowed upon him by these beings elevated himself to full blown godhood.

One final point. If the power of primordials diminishes with each generation will there be any more. Is the power of Toril/Chauntea depleted to the point that she has dispersed her energy among all the races that live on the surface of Toril today.

Anyways, just a few more thoughts on primordials, and their origins, and possibly future.

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11809 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 14:59:46

I'd stress here that first generation primordials of this crystal sphere were more powerful. This could be a standard amongst most crystal spheres when they're formed... that they generate "primordial beings" of great power. Thus, in a newly formed crystal sphere now, there could be some primordial being forming even now of great power.... within that crystal sphere.

I'd then stress that there is a different kind of primordial being. These are the primordial beings formed strictly from the elemental planes. We would typically call them Elemental Lords or Genie Caliphs. These beings maybe don't spawn as strong as those initial primordials from a crystal sphere, but they spawn with no lessening of power over time. While they have magic, it tends to be limited to the magic of the elements for the most part.

Similarly, Archfey spawn over time, but these beings are much more inherently magical than the elemental primordials, and their magic runs the gamut of ideas.

So, this brings us to a question.... why did Ao TWIN Toril (i.e. are there any reasons besides those listed).... was it maybe because of some conflict between the Archfey and the elemental lords (with the Archfey creating many god-template ascensions of themselves)? Is Toril inherently so magical because of its links to Faerie/the Feywild? Is elemental type magics stronger in Abeir and maybe more "fey" magics (beguilements, charms, illusions, etc...) weaker?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 15:40:21

I think it was more of a 'World War' type of event. Some 'power' did not like something another power did, and then did something to retaliate (this was probably the WoL&D). Then that power - with help from others - did something back. And so on, and so forth, until just about everyone was involved, and the whole world was literally 'going to hell in a hand-basket'.

Ao stepped-in only when he felt the Sphere itself was in jeopardy, and thus 'twinned the world' to separate some of the factions.

I say 'some' because not everyone may have been involved, and also some of those involved may have been necessary to keep around on one or both worlds, and some may have even been 'playing both ends against the middle' (inciting the whole thing even further).

So I don't think its as cut-and-dry as him just shunting the primordials off to their own world (because we know some primordials were still around), it was more like imprisoning those who's power was capable of disrupting the primal (physics) forces of the universe and destroying the Crystal sphere out-right, and ALSO those who had no compunctions not to do so (because some of those that had the power would not have taken that chance).

Why Shar remained on Toril is anyone's guess. I personally think she qualified to be 'jailed' over on Abeir. She has both the power, and is selfish enough not to care what befalls everyone else. On the other hand, she DID lose a major portion of her power right at the onset... that may have actually turned out to be her saving's grace.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 01 Nov 2013 15:41:26

Demzer
Senior Scribe

877 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 15:53:17

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
... but Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal killed several of what could now be considered primordials.

Sigh, i'm sorry dazzlerdal, i'm always adding off topicness to your thread. But this one is something i'm interested in (as evidenced by past threads): the Dark Three *didn't* kill many primordials, they probably didn't kill a single one of them.

Borem is the closest one to death, yet it's enough to remove the dagger from the heart and give him some time to flow out of it and he will be back around kicking butts. When getting back to the living is so easy, i don't think we can call that death.

Maram was banished back to one elemental or para-elemental plane (there was NO F*****G "elemental chaos" back then!!!).

Tyranthraxus is the weirdest one because it seems the Dark Three released him, he "avenged" Maram going against the nations that took part in his banishing and yet some suspect the Dark Three had a hand in unleashing Tyranthraxus. Anyway he was definetely NOT dead considering all the troubles for Phlan and Myth Drannor he caused with the Pools of Radiance.

Haask and Hargut were bound to each other and confined to the depths beneath Ironfang Keep while still alive and should still be there as far as we know in any era we players and DMs set our games.

Canmod the Unseen is ... well he/she/it it's true to his name but keeping in tone with the other means he/she/it should still be alive bound near the Glacier of the White Wyrm or banished somewhere.

Even if i don't like the Primordials one bit and will keep them out of my game world, just theorizing i think we can see them as the expressions of the multitude of spirits/souls of material things.

To elaborate: Kossuth is the embodiment of the utter neutrality of a raging natural forest fire gaining sentience by the sum of the essences of all the fire elementals with no particular good or evil tendency while his evil counterpart is the expression of the hunger to consume of the evil elemental beings connected to fire, And the same with the other elements

In this light, Chauntea would definitely be a Primordial, Shar and Selune, being the "daughters of the universe" and "mothers of creation" would be the other two big Primordials out there and the Weave would be the last member of the quartet being the expression of the magical and mystical energies of creation.

Yes, i said the Weave and not Mystr-- because i want to throw in these odd idea: what if Mystr-- was the mean with which Shar and Selune finally subjugated the other unruly Primordials?
Elaborating: Shar, Selune, Chauntea and the Weave were the first 4, they then started creating all the rest of the family of Primordials, mortals appeared and the adoration of the mortal races brought to us the deities. Conflict sparked because the Primordials were left out of the faith-circuit, Chauntea fought for her mortal children that spawned the deities so she sided with the deities, the Weave supported her magically talented and mystically powerful brothers and sisters and so sided with the Primordials. Selune and Shar stayed neutral for a time, then decided to end things but couldn't force ALL their sons and daughters to cease fire so they beheaded the most dangerous side (the Primordials that were going on a rampage) by binding the Weave inside a newly created deity. This operation was costly but utlimately brought victory to the deities, Selune took all the fame and her enmity with Shar blossomed as the darker sister wasn't recognized as a savior on par with Selune by the divine beings.
This means that Mystr-- is just a shell for the trapped Weave and this would explain her "fragility" and the high body count of those that followed the first in the office: unsettle the balance of the Weave too much with spells and such and the Primordial will struggle in its bonds and destroy its vessel, running amok for a while until Ao or the greater gods bind it securely again.
And since i don't know the specifics of how Cyric managed to slay Mystra in Dweomerheart, i would go with the fact that Shar let him in this little dirty secret and he knew were to strike to unravel the most superficial bindings that kept Mystra together and the Weave caged.

Just to add my 2 coppers, sorry again for all the off-topics.

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 15:58:48

The 'Big Four' - the elemental lords (Kossuth, etc) - are core now, which could help explain why they could have been active on both Abeir and Toril. They are the very embodiment of the four primal elements, and probably can't be banned from any sphere (without that sphere deteriorating rapidly).

They are the same four elemental lords on EVERY D&D world. That makes them more then primordials - it makes them a magnitude higher.

Unless, of course, these rules apply to ALL primordials... which makes us wonder, then, how Ao managed to pull his 'hat trick'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 01 Nov 2013 15:59:27

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 16:53:01

I'm liking the off topic tangents it appeals to my short attention span.

I dont necessarily think that the war of primordials versus deities ever existed or was as clean cut as they say.

I think that the first generation of primordials were very primordial in nature, embodiments of elements - fire, water, ice, magma, earth, shadow. Very simple but powerful beings born out of singular elements.

The "mating" (although as we can see from the giant history it is just a mingling of essences) created more complex primordials that were lesser in power (but probably only just). Until we see forms of life that one would recognise on Toril today.

The war of light and darkness appears to have been a war just between the primordials themselves and resulted in the birth of the sun which is probably what allowed the lesser races to begin appearing (previous to that any human created by the humanlike primordial would have died instantly in the hostile environment that lacked light).

I agree that selune and shar's battle also caused the creation of the weave and maybe not the goddess mystryl herself at the time.

But with the sun and magic life can then be created normally, the lesser races appear and so does belief.

The more powerful, prominent, active primordials become elevated to godhood and the deities are born.

So what would there be to war about - for the power of godhood perhaps.

It seems that in order for life to be created the primordials are necessary. Annam mated with the primordial Othea to create the giants (well the giant primordials were born who in turn created giants). So why would the gods kill primordials when they need them to bring life to the planet.

I dont really bother with other world cosmology, i keep to the great wheel but am not concerned with core gods and fr gods etc.

However if kossuth for instance were the primordial of fire, at some point worship elevates him to godhood and he chooses to dwell on the elemental plane of fire. That plane then picks him as its representative and makes him a cosmic entity and he is then available to all other worlds.

Or possibly Kossuth was a primordial on the elemental plane first that was responsible for creating the planet toril in the first place (by mixing with the other elemental lord primordials). He is then at a later date elevated by the plane of fire to cosmic entity status for being the most supreme representative of fire in the multiverse.

In fact there is nothing to say Kossuth and the other elemental lord primordials didnt repeat the act of creating planets over and over again. Or that they just mixed to form the material plane and the planets coalesced naturally.

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11809 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 18:16:53

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The 'Big Four' - the elemental lords (Kossuth, etc) - are core now, which could help explain why they could have been active on both Abeir and Toril. They are the very embodiment of the four primal elements, and probably can't be banned from any sphere (without that sphere deteriorating rapidly).

They are the same four elemental lords on EVERY D&D world. That makes them more then primordials - it makes them a magnitude higher.

Unless, of course, these rules apply to ALL primordials... which makes us wonder, then, how Ao managed to pull his 'hat trick'.

This is the one part where you and I always stray Markustay (and its not a bad thing). Personally, I hate seeing the word EVERY. Kossuth is A powerful primordial encompassing the primary essence of fire. I don't believe the the only primordial of such type.

At one point you espoused a view that was very similar to mine in regards to the elemental chaos. It was basically that in previous editions where we THOUGHT there was a specific plane of fire, water, earth, etc..... it was our own misconception, because we had discovered a section of the elemental chaos that was very uniformly a single element. Then we discovered vast swathes that were made up of what we termed "para-elemental planes" for vast swathes that corresponded to other intermixed elemental types that were relatively uniform. I believe that there are numerous of these "uniform sections" of fire, and each has its own primordial who is like Kossuth. They may share similar physical forms... they may not... they may even have different views on fire (some may espouse fire's hunger more... some may espouse its life-giving nature... some may pose as sun deities on other worlds, etc...). The same goes for areas of water, earth, air, minerals, steam, magma, etc...

On that note, I also suspect that there are multiple "Cities of Brass" and that wily Efreeti Pasha's have hidden this fact.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 19:16:46

Well I cant say im thrilled with the idea of multiple cities of brass ruled by people with the same name.

But since abeir toril supposedly means cradle of life, how about if the prime material plane started there first.

So all these gods of other spheres that are the same came from Toril first. I'm sure the history of the other worlds is longer than Toril's 70,000 years which would completely invalidate that idea, but such is life.

What I mean is Kossuth arose or arrived on Toril first and was elevated to godhood here. Then he visited the other worlds as he desired and they all came to worship him. That doesn't mean all gods arose on Toril. we have plenty of interloper gods for sure. But the humans could have been created here first (hence the term creator race - created on toril, Crea-Tor) migrated to other worlds and invented their own gods that were exported back to Toril at some point.

Anyway, that's one of those off topic things.

Back to Primordials.

I can't say im convinced with this term arch fey. It seems that arch fey are just primordials that live on the fey plane. Other than their location they don't seem all that different.

The fey plane (if it is a plane, it may just be a big planet in its own pocket dimension), is different from the material plane, but it doesn't fit in the elemental (inner) or outer planes category. It seems to be one of those transitory planes (where people can move between planes), but it is special in that it is also capable of creating life. Maybe it is a plane of life and magic rather than the elements that combined to form the material plane.

I am with Markustay's theory that Corellon and probably all the seldarine, and Lolth, were all primordial on the fey plane (subservient to that plane's primordial rulers) and migrated to Toril with their children - the elves).

Once on Toril, worship of the elves would have elevated the seldarine to godhood.

Now whether the events surrounding Lolth's descent, or the battle between Corellon and Gruumsh happened on the material plane or on faerie, or on the outer planes I don't know. Maybe Corellon remained on the fey plane and the worship of the elves on Toril raised him to godhood.

Any of those possibilities is possible. But it seems certain to me that Corellon was a primordial and the elves his children (or the seldarine's children). And since only primordials seem capable of creating material plane life he must have ben a primordial

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 19:32:51

Oh and maybe you don't have to kill a primordial to steal it's power.

Maybe the dagger the dark three were given allowed them to steal a primordial's power, just attacking it would siphon off some. Maybe Uthgar beat the primordials into subservience and they voluntarily relinquished some of their power to him

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11809 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 00:24:53

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well I cant say im thrilled with the idea of multiple cities of brass ruled by people with the same name.

But since abeir toril supposedly means cradle of life, how about if the prime material plane started there first.

So all these gods of other spheres that are the same came from Toril first. I'm sure the history of the other worlds is longer than Toril's 70,000 years which would completely invalidate that idea, but such is life.

What I mean is Kossuth arose or arrived on Toril first and was elevated to godhood here. Then he visited the other worlds as he desired and they all came to worship him. That doesn't mean all gods arose on Toril. we have plenty of interloper gods for sure. But the humans could have been created here first (hence the term creator race - created on toril, Crea-Tor) migrated to other worlds and invented their own gods that were exported back to Toril at some point.

Anyway, that's one of those off topic things.

Back to Primordials.

I can't say im convinced with this term arch fey. It seems that arch fey are just primordials that live on the fey plane. Other than their location they don't seem all that different.

The fey plane (if it is a plane, it may just be a big planet in its own pocket dimension), is different from the material plane, but it doesn't fit in the elemental (inner) or outer planes category. It seems to be one of those transitory planes (where people can move between planes), but it is special in that it is also capable of creating life. Maybe it is a plane of life and magic rather than the elements that combined to form the material plane.

I am with Markustay's theory that Corellon and probably all the seldarine, and Lolth, were all primordial on the fey plane (subservient to that plane's primordial rulers) and migrated to Toril with their children - the elves).

Once on Toril, worship of the elves would have elevated the seldarine to godhood.

Now whether the events surrounding Lolth's descent, or the battle between Corellon and Gruumsh happened on the material plane or on faerie, or on the outer planes I don't know. Maybe Corellon remained on the fey plane and the worship of the elves on Toril raised him to godhood.

Any of those possibilities is possible. But it seems certain to me that Corellon was a primordial and the elves his children (or the seldarine's children). And since only primordials seem capable of creating material plane life he must have ben a primordial

I never said the multiple cities of brass would be ruled by people with the same name. They could have an entirely different structure. Point being many different people have come out with their own "city of brass".... this would simply allow for them all to be true. That being said, I'm not hard stuck on this particular idea, but it just seems to me that there's probably a lot of different Efreeti cities.

On Toril being the first crystal sphere. I see several people throwing that around. Personally, I'd prefer that not be the case. Is Toril special to my heart? Yes. Does it need to be effectively the start of the universe? No. The people that started the universe should know a lot more about the universe IMO. That being said, I believe in the old spelljammer products it stated that all crystal spheres continually grow, and Toril is one of the largest, and therefore one of the oldest.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2013 : 19:31:28

Cant say I was too fond of the idea of Toril being the centre of the material universe even after it came out of my mouth (metaphorically speaking).

I prefer to think the first life began on the fey plane. It certainly strikes me as the more ancient and life filled area. In fact it may have been a previous attempt at life creation that the universe attempted and abandoned for whatever reason.

But anyway back to primordial musings.

I have had a few thoughts about the deities and primordials. It seems that quite a few gods have multiple avatars, and I was wondering at the reason for this. Bhaal for instance has that monstrous ravager creature and I was thinking that perhaps at some point in his godhood, Bhaal may have competed against this ravage creature for a piece of portfolio (violent death maybe). Bhaal obviously won, and this avatar is a vestige of that creature.

Maybe that creature was a primordial at one point and cannot be wholly subsumed into Bhaal and so there always has to be at least one of this avatar wandering the realms that has its own personality independent of Bhaal but always acts to promote Bhaal's portfolio.

If more people worshipped the ravage as being the lord of murder then Bhaal would become the subservient one, or separate somehow.

Maybe that's what happened with Lathander and Amaunator. Lathander assumed large portions of Amaunators portfolio and kept his avatar locked up underground somewhere so no one could see it. When that guy cast the permanent second sun spell in the town that mysteriously changed to a different town in 4e. Then people began believing in a sun god that was separate to Lathander. And hey presto Amaunator becomes a separate deity.

And because of that tri partite thing where you cant have a dawn, dusk, and noon god at the same time Lathander gradually disappeared.

Although i'm not convinced that Jergal is still a deity at this time. I reckon that since he largely acted according to his own rules and apart form the other deities (was he cast down during the TOT?). At some point he must have been a primordial, who became a deity, who gave his godhood to the dark three and became a deity again.

Perhaps that was what the subduing of the 7 lost gods was because the mortal versions of the dark three couldn't handle all the power that Jergal contained in his portfolio, it might have destroyed them or driven them mad (Cyric!). So he had them go and gradually increase their power using that dagger to slay, subdue, banish the 7 lost gods (primordial). Then when they were ready he relinquished his portfolios and power gladly knowing that he had dodged the bullet with regards to his death (and Lathander's arrival) and the TOT.

Wow that's a lot of musings, and all probably total cr*p but at least its not in my head now, quite enough for one day.

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11809 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2013 : 00:50:55

I like the idea that life began in the feywild/faerie. It makes sense somewhat, because many of the beings there are naturally immortal. Perhaps death formed on the "primes" whenever "life" began to form there. Life energy being a major basis of magic... perhaps this is why the feywild/faerie is so magically capable (even compared to Toril).

I like the idea that Bhaal's other aspect is because he subsumed a primordial and can't quite get rid of it.

On the Amaunator/Lathander thing... I find it odd that everyone focuses on these two sun gods and don't recognize how many other sun gods there have been in the realms. There was at least Re (Mulhorand), Horus-Re (also Mulhorand), Utu (Untheric), Tezca (Maztica), Stronmaus (Storm and Cloud Giants). From their stories, they can't all be "aspects" or "alias" of each other. I personally think something along the lines of what you said. Amaunator was perhaps another name of Stronmaus (who if you read his story, does sound like a primordial) who was adopted by the Netherese pantheon from the Giants. Along comes another pantheon and there's this fey being named Lathander with the god template (remembering that Arvandor and Olympus are the same place in the realms). Lathander manages to force Stronmaus to give up his position as Amaunator, but he survives on as Stronmaus still with the giants. Maybe he did this by capturing the avatar of Amaunator. Later, Stronmaus plays on historians interest in this old aspect of himself, and somehow uses it to turn the tables on Lathander using the old Alias (possibly exactly as you say by creating the second sun).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 03 Nov 2013 : 09:30:20

I think tiamat has two avatars as well so a similar thing might have occured with her.

I agree with you that rule of two for the sun gods of the faerunian pantheon wouldnt apply to others. And I reckon it didnt even apply to faerun in the beginning. Belief however is powerful in fact it is all powerful when it comes to deities. A few scholars might have noticed a pattern and come up with the incorrect idea that the three cannot exist together. However word spread and enough people came to believe it and so that made it true.

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