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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Nov 2013 : 13:27:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Sleyvas
This is the one part where you and I always stray Markustay (and its not a bad thing). Personally, I hate seeing the word EVERY. Kossuth is A powerful primordial encompassing the primary essence of fire. I don't believe the the only primordial of such type.
Not really as much as you think. I agree that there should be more then one 'Kossuth', and that I really hate that they made the FR-specif Elemental lords core. I prefer to think of that as just a name humans (and us gamers) are familiar with, and have no real bearing on what these 'things' call themselves, or each other.
I also cling to my 'archtype' theory - that all these Kossuths are part of one, greater Fire Primordial - they are just local avatars assigned to each crystal sphere. This is something that needed to be done after the Prime was shattered (see below), and it could have also even been a great way for the Over/Elder gods (those beings a tier above primoridals) to nerf some of the primordial's power, and keep them in-check. The original fire primordial may have been near-omnipotent, but now he has had to split himself up into an uncountable number of 'lesser' Kossuths (greater/planer Titans? Jotuns?)
"Every" is also a word I don't care for much - when I use it, I mean that it is the 'usual, natural state' of such things, but for everything in a near-limitless multiverse, there should be dozens (if not thousands) of exceptions to everything. When we discuss such things, I tend to think in terms of very standard, generic fantasy (D&D) worlds. There are lots of 'odd-ball' worlds out there, but those fall into those exceptions.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well I cant say im thrilled with the idea of multiple cities of brass ruled by people with the same name.
But since abeir toril supposedly means cradle of life, how about if the prime material plane started there first.
THIS
My own concept isn't that Toril was first (that was my original theory), but rather, it (and perhaps Krynn and Oerth) were a core part of the 'First World' which got sundered. That what we know of Torillian history is confusing because Torillian scholars are confused - all history before the Sundering was about that proto-world (a flat, near-infinite plane, really). This is why we have giants, elves, dwarves, etc EVERYWHERE. the Crystal spheres are really just the 'broken bits' of the Prime Material plane which was shattered during the Godwar. This means that the Creator Races were from that First World, and not really Toril-specific at all (which would actually help explain MUCH).
I don't think there are multiple cities of brass, but what I think is that mortals (natives of the Material Plane) are 'anchored' to their plane, in much the same way that everyone else (outsider) is. We have just been looking at things from a very prime-centric point-of-view. So if someone from Toril travels to the City of Brass, when they leave they return to their plane of origin. So does someone from Krynn, or Oerth, etc. This gives Mortals the false conception that it is 'their' City of Brass (or Sigil, or whatever). Each primer has to follow the 'rules' as dictated by his own beliefs, so although folk from different worlds may meet while traveling the planes, each is following his own set of rules (and beliefs) regarding them, which could even effect how they perceive what they are seeing. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Nov 2013 13:31:27 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2013 : 13:59:27
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I like the idea that life began in the feywild/faerie. It makes sense somewhat, because many of the beings there are naturally immortal. Perhaps death formed on the "primes" whenever "life" began to form there. Life energy being a major basis of magic... perhaps this is why the feywild/faerie is so magically capable (even compared to Toril).
One of my early Fey theories was that they came from toril origainlly, which made perfect sense because they were one of Toril's Creator Races (Creatori).
However, as my theories have evolved (and broadened to take-in all other worlds/planes), I realize this doesn't work so well. Or rather, it does work, but not in the way I originally saw it. Faerie was on Toril, but only in-as-much as that Toril was part of that 'One World' (First World) before The Sundering.
This single plane was all-that-was at that time. The gods lived 'on high', and the servants lived 'below'. This is in at least 4-dimensional space, so that 'up' and 'down' don't really mean the same thing as they do in a 3-dimensional model - think of them both as more of 'beyond'. The surface of this one world was like a giant laboratory, where all these mighty being got to play with their creations (and the Creator Races were born). This planer model was much closer to how the Norse viewed things, but the different 'regions' were easier to reach in this earlier proto-era.
When that world was sundered (by the death of Ymir in my mythos), the gods choose to stay 'above' and created their own region that we now call the Upper Planes (which were simply 'the heavens' back then). The demons - those elemtnal beings who once were the 'grunts' (labor-force) of the gods choose to stay 'below' the world, and set-up their own region (now know as the 'lower planes', or simply, 'the hels'). From this initial, three-world(plane) model, the Feywild and Shadowfel were created - the feywild being the reflection of the Prime material on the 'bottom' of the Upper worlds, and the Shadowfel being the dark shadow of the Prime cas upon the lower worlds. Many beings who felt no affiliation to the other three worlds - the Upper, lower, and Prime (Midgard) worlds began to settle in these two new psuedo-planes (which have gradually become planes in their own right). the All-father (Annam) may have been the very first god to shunt some of his people into one of these regions to try and save them from what was happening on the material world.
So we had one plane (dimension), which became three, and then five, and this has grown into the various cosmologies we primes recognize... and none of which is correct, BTW. We can barely fathom 4-dimensional space, so how can we possibly wrap our minds around how 11-dimensional space might work?
Here's an old mock-up of how I pictured the planer structure.
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When the Material Plane was shattered (into the Prime and four elemental planes), the Creatori all scrambled for ways to continue their existence. Not only did each race come up with different methods, but groups within each race came-up with different paths to take. The greater part of the Fey - those that choose to abandon the Prime material - merged their essence with Danu (the mot powerful archfey that ever existed), and she sacrificed herself to recreate their homeland within the Feywild. Where their old home was is now known as the blasted wastes of Ladinion (for those that like Cthulhu stuff, this could work as the Plateau of Leng).
The only problem is that the Feywild wasn't always the Fey-Wild, it was Jotunheim, or rather, 'The Giant Wilds'. It is where the 'All Father' (the being known as Annam) moved HIS children when the Material plane was shattered. After many wars, the Giants have been pushed into the wilder, border regions of the Feywild, but they have never forgiven the Fey (or their children) for this indignity (this is all derived from Celtish/Irish folkore).
Note that is this mostly homebrew, based on lots of stuff, but my own conjecture, and certainly NOT canon. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Nov 2013 15:22:59 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2013 : 19:35:52
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Well, the bottom line is, I think the (current) D&D term 'primordials' is more-or-less a catch-all for "all those beings that are not deities, but are of the 'god' level of power, and have been around since the beginning (or nearly so)". It is, indeed, extremely vague (but in their defense, I think it was meant to be so).
Thats why I take the word and try to assign it a place within an ever-higher-reaching echelon of beings.
The concept was never a bad one, just the lack of proper execution, as you've pointed-out. Right now a lot of people are picturing Greek-style, Titan-like beings (which are themselves represented vastly different from media to media). I think those beings - the Planer Titans - are just the first batch of 'children' of the Primordials, and thats why they get associated with them so often (and why many Titans have elemental leanings). True primordials - the ones I think the 4e concept was trying to embody - are more 'living energy that has achieved awareness', and as such, are both incredibly powerful, and at the same time, almost child-like in their behavior (they had no 'growing up' like mortal beings do) and actions (because without that 'maturity' mortal beings achieve, they are very reptilian in their thinking - its all about fulfilling their own, current desire with no thought to consequences).
Picture a 100-megaton atomic bomb with the mind of a two year old, and you'd just be scratching the surface of what a primordial is like. Those few that have merged with/absorbed human sentiences (souls?) are 'deeper', and able to understand how their actions have consequences for others (and some of those become deities that way). How do you even hold something accountable, when it isn't even aware of the harm it is causing?
Such was Ao's dilemma, me thinks. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Nov 2013 19:37:16 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2013 : 09:05:09
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Hugely powerful children is how i picture the earlier primordials as well.
The earlier primordials in my mind were the more simple ones made up of one maybe two elements and are essentially just unique elemental blobs (like the titans from greek mythology).
Later primordials created from a mixing of the earlier primordials would be much more complicated and therefore more intelligent. The grandfather tree sounds like a primordial to me and is certainly capable of reasoned thought (he exiled the blue bear tribe). I think Lurue the unicorn is probably a primordial as well (the first unicorn that spawned all the lesser unicorns). I would even go so far as to propose that Elrem be a primordial as well (given that uthgar subdued him to serve as his beast totem), but he is so complex that his raw power is much lower compared to earlier primordials. That doesnt mean he is a weakling, compared to a mortal he would be powerful (if he werent dead), but no match for even a demigod.
Now that you mention dawn titans i have seen you talk about titans existing before they were born and did not quite understand what you meant until now.
So when the batrachi emperor died fighting the dawn titan Omo he wasnt fighting a titan (ie massive humanoid of tremendous power), instead he was fighting a primordial. Even the name Omo is simplicity in the extreme so he was likely fighting one of the early primordials - ie a dawn titan - i picture a huge being of rock and magma.
The question is why were the batrachi fighting a primordial and how did this then spill over into conflict with the giants (who are unrelated to the original primordial dawn titans).
Could it be that the batrachi - rulers of the planet Toril (or at least large parts of it) sought to take power from the most powerful beings and therefore masters of Toril. I guess the batrachi bit off more than they could chew and suffered heavy casualties subduing primordials.
Could it be then that the primordials appealed to a deity of the fey plane (i dont know why giants would come from the fey plane but i cant think where else they would come from. The fey plane is life personified and giants are indeed full of life - just look at their height and power and strength and innate magical abilities).
Annam arrives and finds that the primordials are shackled to the whims of the batrachi - a mere lesser race, spawned of primordials. He realises he needs allies and sets about creating his own army. Searching far and wide he finds Othea in the frozen north - a place the amphibious batrachi cannot venture. Mating with Othea he creates his own army of primordials and their children - the giants.
Annam and his children go to war with the batrachi. Fighting to a stalemate using their primordial servants (how else would the batrachi compete with giants and titans), the primordials call upon the most powerful primordial they can find - Asgoroth - who hurls a moon at Toril (secretly hoping to annihilate the batrachi as well as doing as he is bidden by his masters).
And thats the start of dragons.
Or once again i could be talking rot.
But it does seem strange that first batrachi are fighting the dawn titans who are either primordials or a race that doesnt exist yet. Then later they enlist the aid of a primordial to help defeat a race of powerful humanoids that dwell in an environment that the batrachi cannot go.
In fact the two races could have coexisted quite happily. The giants could have kept to the land and the batrachi could stay in the water and there would be no need for a war of annihilation that nearly destroyed the world. So why did both sides feel a need to annihilate the other (and possibly the world in the process).
Well the above is my idea for a solution, not saying its a good one but i think we need some more detail for the giants and indeed the batrachi and why they fought. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2013 : 13:46:21
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Now that you mention dawn titans i have seen you talk about titans existing before they were born and did not quite understand what you meant until now.
Grand History of the Realms:
quote:
c. –31500 DR
Under the wise leadership of Zhoukoudien, batrachi power reaches its zenith. The High One’s reign ends when he is slain in battle by the titan thane Omo.
–30000 DR to –24000 DR
— The great giant god Annam All-Father marries Othea, a lesser demigoddess of Toril. Their union produces eight terrestrial children. Ostoria, the Colossal Kingdom, is founded by Annam in honor of his sons.
Thus, Titans existed before Annam even met the mother of titans.
Note my use of capitalization; this was on-purpose. The first 'Titan' mentioned was a planer Titan - those that were covered in the Planescape products and live in Olympus and elsewhere (within the Outer Planes). A 'titan' - those that are in the standard monster manual and are the children of Annam and Othea - are 'terrestrial' (lesser) titans, and dwell within the Prime Material.
We also have two varieties of Cyclops - planer (from the original Deities & Demigods) and lesser, MM versions, and in 4e we got larger, more powerful Fomorians, and in earlier editions we got the weaker Fhoimoriens (using the Birthright spelling here to differentiate the two). Once again, we have a big difference in both size and power between the original, planer version and the lesser, terrestrial versions.
Which is the basis for my argument that there are two tiers of giants - those first (greater) giants that lived on the First World, many of whom wound-up in the Feywild (The Elder Wilds), and then Annam went-about 'seeding' many Prime Worlds with those lesser versions. Apparently there was some sort of competition amongst the 'old ones' about who's race would be the best, and since the Creator Races wound-up in many Crystal Spheres, Annam made sure his people were still 'in the running'.
Also, I think Annam is the same 'All Father' as Odin (Woten), and is also the unnamed, dwarven 'High God' mentioned in the Complete Book of Dwarves.
You see, dwarves and giants are really the same race, thats why so many of them can change size (Spriggans, Firbolds, Duergar, etc). The dwarves were the children of Ymir ("the blood of Ymir") that crawled forth from his dying corpse (the Sundered Material plane). Annam was also the first 'son of Ymir', and therefor one of the most powerful primoridal Titans, so the Dwarves and giants are kin. The dwarves looked upon their older, powerful 'cousins' with awe, and served them, up until the giants came into conflict with the Fey. As a weapon, the giants created the first terrestrial dragons using dwarves (this comes straight from mythology) in an Eldritch (Rune Magic) ritual. The dwarves felt this was a betrayal, and most fled the Feywild and the giant/fey War.
Planer dwarves are all male, and are born directly from stone. Once they settled on the prime Material, females were needed (because the 'magic of the planes' no longer worked), and they accomplished this through various means (crossbreeding, magic, etc). Thus, no terrestrial dwarves are pure-blood dwarves (just as terrestrial elves are no longer pure-blood Fey).
Toward the end of the Giant/Fey War, the dragons freed themselves from their giantish yokes and also fled to the material plane. To keep them from doing further harm, the Fey sent their mortal children - the elves - to the prime worlds to hunt-down the dragons before they completely took over those worlds (I added this because of that bit from GHotR). This is why the giants, elves, dragons, and dwarves all have such a complicated and contentious history - all have reasons for hating the others (and all are merely 'shadows' of their former, planer glory).
I've worked-in the draconic myths as well - the giants tried many versions of their dragon-creating rituals (thus making different species), and several Drækons* and other powers also tampered with these experiments, creating unique variants of their own (including Bahamut and Tiamat).
You see, the war never ends... it just has new battlefields. The Bloodwar itself is an outgrowth of that original conflict - the Godwar (which in reality is/was a series of wars, with ever-changing sides). Each new dimension, plane, sphere, demi- and even pocket-plane affords these beings a new territory they feel needs conquering. It can't end, because the objectives - and agendas of those involved - are constantly changing.
*Greater celestial dragons - immensely powerful beings of pure energy, of a magnitude higher then primordials - the Supernals.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Nov 2013 13:49:09 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2013 : 09:19:11
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Ooh, i like dwarves and giants being of the same stock.
It does seem bizarre though that Annam would start creating giants all over again on Faerun when he could just import them from wherever they existed before (the Fey plane).
I think since giants are a race born on Toril and dwarves are interlopers i would have the dwarven primogenitor being the first of Annam's children, which he then abandoned because of some kind of corruption that caused shortness. That would certainly explain any animosity between the two races.
And i love the idea of dwarves literally springing out of the rock. If Annam went to Toril and his dwarf children followed him, then gradually the magic of the Fey leaves them as they spend time on the material plane and they can no longer just spring out of the rock. The idea of them using great magic (rune magic no doubt) to combine themselves with other creatures - maybe galeb duhr, or pech, or other rock creatures which then makes them native to the prime material plane and able to reproduce in the normal way (for the material plane anyway) is also a good idea.
A recent scroll here pointed out an entry in dwarves deep which stated that the dwarves once had the ability to work tremendous rune magics (able to level entire cities) which they have now lost seems to grant credence to the idea that they once did great things - probably in order to save themselves from extinction and when they merged their essences with material plane creatures they lost that link to the Fey plane and lost the ability to perform such great magics.
The elves i guess retained their link to the Fey plane and so can still perform their great magics.
I think i prefer Omo being a Dawn Titan than a planar titan (a dawn titan in my mind isnt anything like a giant titan, more like an elemental primordial from the greek mythology. Whereas a planar titan just sounds like a more powerful human looking titan but that comes from the planes). So Omo is more like a massive rock creature, or fire creature, or water, or air, something made of the elements that resembles a massive two legged two armed creature.
That way the death of the batrachi emperor doesnt have to be part of any kind of war, it can be an entirely unrelated incident (the entry in GHoTR doesnt mention a war of any kind just that his reign ended when he was slain by Omo). So there was the emperor touring the northern provinces of his realm when he accidentally inserts a flag of his realm into the eyeball of the dawn titan Omo (who was lying down having a nap and resembled a rather large hill) who wakes up and takes umbridge at the assault and squishes the entire entourage.
Even the name Omo says simplicity and elemental to me, one of those childlike beings of immense power and little intelligence, probably the only word it could utter was "Omo" as it smushed his amphibious body beneath a thousand tons of rocky foot.
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2013 : 17:34:57
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Personally, my version of primordials is a bit different than what's 4e canon. In Planescape terms both gods and primordials (and archfey, archfiends ...) are powers. It depends on where they live. Most ancient powers started as primordials, and later added god-like templates after belief developed. E.g. Greek Nyx, Chaos, Aether, Norse Ymir etc. were/are primordials. Multiverse timeline in short:
- previous multiverse ''ends'' by everything returning to one point, known as Life or the Sphere of Integration in Mystara
- Life bursts into an infinite number pieces, creating time-space, another cycle of the multiverse begins
- there's only the Ethereal, the plane of possibility
- first primordials appear, those of thought, energy, matter, time, and entropy
- eldest archfey reincarnate from the last cycle of the multiverse
- primordials of thought discover the Astral void, and create/become concepts/incarnations of Good, Evil, Chaos, Law. They form first outer planes, first as demiplanes in the Ethereal.
- in the Ethereal, the proto-stuff mostly gathers in four basic patterns, forming an infinite amunt of air, water, earth, and fire, that brings another, second, generation of primordials (e.g. titans).
- First mortal worshippers appear with the third generation of powers, e.g. Zeus, Odin |
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Primordials
