| Author |
 Topic  |
|
rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 00:59:43
|
not sure what time frame in the Realms this is from, but back in Dragon 54 (1981), Ed wrote an article "Down-to-earth divinity, One DM's design for a mixed and matched mythos." and it has a chart for "The Deities & Demigods of the Forgotten Realms: Human Deities"
Sune is listed with a home plane of Olympus and is listed as a Greater Goddess at this point.
Then there is a short blurb for each god and for Sune it says:
quote:
SUNE Aphrodite (DDG, p. 64) renamed; the ultimate in charisma.
and then under "Alliances among the gods" it says
quote:
"Lliira and Selune serve Sune."
At this point in time, Bhaal and Myrkul are still around as is Tyche and Beshaba.
The blurb on Selune says:
quote:
Selune is continually either growing to full glory or dying.
and she is listed as a Lesser Goddess as this point in time.
Alot of this is also in the FR Campaign Box Set (1987) but there is one other thing not found in Ed's original article:
quote:
The Olympian pantheon is unknown, and the Outer Plane of Olympus is known in the Forgotten Realms by its elvish name, Arvandor. Sune Firehair, however, sounds suspiciously like Athena of
the Greeks, and may be the same Power.
And then we have "Prayers from the Faithful" designed (written?) by Ed and under the Sash of Sune it says:
quote:
References to what may be the Sash of Sune appear as long as 3,000 years ago, but the item is first wholly and reliably identified in the chatty, personal Travels of Aruugh, a chapbook popular as entertainment in the Vilhon Reach some 1,020 summers ago.
|
 |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 03:46:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by rjfras
And then we have "Prayers from the Faithful" designed (written?) by Ed and under the Sash of Sune it says:
quote:
References to what may be the Sash of Sune appear as long as 3,000 years ago, but the item is first wholly and reliably identified in the chatty, personal Travels of Aruugh, a chapbook popular as entertainment in the Vilhon Reach some 1,020 summers ago.
Of course, it could be argued that the Sash existed 3000 years ago, but was known as something else -- linking it to Sune could be a far more recent event. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 04:49:36
|
Another theory that has been suggested is that Suné is a Realms fragment of Venus (aka Aphrodite) and that Suné may be an anagram or corruption of that name that has lost the "v".
I remember Ed's Down to Earth Divinity article well. I never knew if he meant for Suné to be an actual aspect of Aphrodite or just a love goddess in the vein of Aphrodite, that is a god based on her as a model, but not actually her. Even though it is rumored that Suné was an aspect of Aphrodite, I was never certain if it were one of those rumors that are based in truth or just a red-herring. I'm sure Ed himself hates to resolve such ambiguities; I know he prefers the origins of gods to remain somewhat mysterious and maintains that the truth about gods can never be known to a certainty.
I had always thought that if it were ever established as true, though, then Suné might be one of the few surviving Olympian gods of classical Greece and Rome that somehow managed to establish a foothold in the Realms after the Imaskari abducted their worshipers from Earth and used them as slaves in the Chessenta region.
The slaves in question would probably have been abducted circa –4366 DR, after the plague of -4370 devastated the Imaskari empire. Because of the god barrier that had been erected, the Greek/Roman gods could not establish a presence in the Realms and could not service their worshipers. (The Egyptian & Mesopotamian pantheons were only able to break through by sending specially imbued super-avatars of themselves physically into Realmspace using special spelljammer arks.) And so the blocked Olympians would have been forgotten after a time, as their worshipers were wooed away to more responsive deities. That's why there are no mentions of the Greek gods in the Realms, except for the rare and tantalizing brief mentions you run across in obscure lore.
But perhaps Venus/Aphrodite alone somehow managed to slip a fragment of herself through the god barrier and find a foothold in the realms. Perhaps an attenuated, low-gain whisper of her godly signal managed to penetrate the barrier in some strange way. And as a result, maybe her worship survived through the ages and diffused around the Dragon Coast, no doubt propelled faster by the period of great trade and colonization during the height of Jhaamdath, and later the Chondathan Diaspora.
Of course, it could be (and this may be the more probable explanation) that Selűne simply adopted the alias of Venus. I imagine several other extant Realms gods would have appropriated the unclaimed aliases of the absent Olympians in order to redirect the veneration of the recent immigrant slaves towards themselves... with the intention of, over time, shifting that worship away from the aliases towards the real gods. Thus Selűne, in the guise of Venus, could have gained a certain popularity as a love goddess along the Dragon Coast. Then with time her name morphed into "Suné" and spread as far as the Talfirs in the Western Heartlands and up into the North.
Sometimes such aspects fragment into distinct and separate entities. Gods are kind of like amoebas that way. Splitting by a metaphorical, memetic mitosis into new gods. Thus Suné was "born" of Selűne, and the myths among the Talfirs may have reflected an actual "birth" to explain it all.
That kind of addresses many of the thoughts that have been percolating in the back of my brain on the matter for some time. |
|
|
|
MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 05:10:20
|
Although I can't be certain I got the impression it was intentionally ambigous whether Sune was an aspect of Aphrodite. They are the same archtype.. but so is Hanali and so forth (granted in 4th edition Hanali is part of Sune so perhaps they are all one being?) But then are all the sky Gods (Anu, Enlil, Zeus, Susanoo, Talos, etc.) in Planescape the same entity? Mask was supposed to, in that article, be based on Hermes and Chauntea on Demeter, etc. yet the realms entities are obviously quite different. It seems like a question that can't be answered, and an unreliable narrator isn't going to tell us the "truth" of the matter. If we believe Sune is Aphrodite couldn't we assign roles to other deities as well such as Demeter/Chauntea (Gaia, and all the other earth goddesses)
In my own realms I assigned a Greek name to 12 gods in Chessenta to reflect the Greek flavour. (Zeus/Talos, Demeter/Chauntea, Mask/Hermes, Lathander/Apollo, etc.) It seems up to the individual imaginer to decide whether archtypes are really all the same thing or distinct entities. The good old unreliable narrator isn't going to tell us the "truth" of the matter. |
|
|
|
Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 10:18:26
|
Great post again, Gray.
Uhm, so we have two perfectly plausible origins for Sune:
1 - She's a fragment of Selune's essence: Selune, being one of the most powerful deities in her time and one of the few with a global view, sent fragments (avatars?) of herself all over Toril to establish churches and get followers. In time many of these fragments morphed into individual entities and grew specific identities and wills. Sune was one of those, during the divine shuffles that happen in every pantheon she ended up with "just" dominion over love, passion and marriage. When the pantheons merged and Selune started re-absorbing her wayward fragments (growing powerful, enough that she could cleave another greater deity, Tyche, in two without breaking a sweat), Sune had grown too different from the original to be absorbed without a fight and Selune, ever caring and benevolent, choose to let her go her own way and not enforce her claim. Later, when Selune's power was at an all times low, she found shelter under the tutelage of her old fragment Sune, that was still subconciously linked to her and grateful for the chance she was given to walk her own path indipendently. When the ToT hit, Selune finally got her investment in all the avatars back getting "faith-XP" from all the worshippers that venerated her with different names, thus gaining enough power to hit the road again alone. Other such fragments that went their own way may be Selan of Zakhara and either Kwan Ying or Ai Ch'hing of Kara-Tur.
2 - Sune is an aspect/manifestation/incarnation of Venus/Aphrodite: if we look at the immigrant greek/egyptian/mesopotamian deities in the same way we look at Faerunian deities that it may very well be that some (or maybe a lot) of the Mulhorandi and Untheri deities that "made the jump" had flings or more lasting relationships with beauty-of-the-next-door Venus. Thus even if she wasn't able to break through or circumvent the Imaskari barrier in person, she was "carried" there in the memories and minds of the other deities. Now, when confronted with the horror of Imaskari slavery, the perils of the war and even death itself (there were a lot of "Ra", "Enlil", "Bast" and so on running around as fragments of the original and getting killed by the Imaskari artificers and archmages) many of those divine soldiers, each with the same memories and willpower greater than mere mortals, may have longed for their lost paramour. And if the war with the Imaskari wasn't enough, the Orcgate Wars were another bloodbath of savagery and this time the deities themselves battled and perished, thus giving more strength to their last wishes and wills. If somehow Sune came to be in such circumstances, she surely ran away from the conflict, confused and frightened about her identity, her weakness and the unfamiliar surroundings. From then on, with the power level of a manifestation or incarnation (thus far greater than mortals), she travelled far and wide giving rise to her church.
Both of these make her a daughter of sorts (of Selune or Venus/Aphrodite), both have her well established by the time the pantheons merged (after the Fall of Netheril) as an individual deity. Now we "just" need to find what caused so great an hemorrhage of Selune's power to get her "demoted" to lesser deity and be in need of some support and protection by Sune. |
|
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 13:27:02
|
| No cause is needed. It is inherent in her nature. She is the goddess of the moon. She continuously waxes and wanes in power, from full to new, and she is occasionally eclipsed by other celestial entities. Her power is, by its very nature, cyclical. She is continually in flux. Ed contemplated this in his conception of her. |
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 15:02:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by rjfras
The blurb on Selune says:
quote:
Selune is continually either growing to full glory or dying.
and she is listed as a Lesser Goddess as this point in time.
It is true that her power waxes and wanes like the moon, but in THIS case, we must observe an editorial/nomenclature reason. The OGB deities were classified in three categories: greater, lesser and demigods. Later (in 2e) the same gods were re-classified between greater, intermediate and lesser gods, and other demigods were introduced (along with dead gods, quasi-deities, beast cults, etc.). |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 15:09:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by rjfras
Alot of this is also in the FR Campaign Box Set (1987) but there is one other thing not found in Ed's original article:
quote:
The Olympian pantheon is unknown, and the Outer Plane of Olympus is known in the Forgotten Realms by its elvish name, Arvandor. Sune Firehair, however, sounds suspiciously like Athena of the Greeks, and may be the same Power.
The article says Athena, not Aphrodite?  If so, it must be a mistake, right? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 15:12:40
|
| I believe this was a typo of the OP. I caught that as well, but don't recall that from the original article. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 19:50:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Great post again, Gray.
Uhm, so we have two perfectly plausible origins for Sune:
1 - She's a fragment of Selune's essence: Selune, being one of the most powerful deities in her time and one of the few with a global view, sent fragments (avatars?) of herself all over Toril to establish churches and get followers. In time many of these fragments morphed into individual entities and grew specific identities and wills. Sune was one of those, during the divine shuffles that happen in every pantheon she ended up with "just" dominion over love, passion and marriage. When the pantheons merged and Selune started re-absorbing her wayward fragments (growing powerful, enough that she could cleave another greater deity, Tyche, in two without breaking a sweat), Sune had grown too different from the original to be absorbed without a fight and Selune, ever caring and benevolent, choose to let her go her own way and not enforce her claim. Later, when Selune's power was at an all times low, she found shelter under the tutelage of her old fragment Sune, that was still subconciously linked to her and grateful for the chance she was given to walk her own path indipendently. When the ToT hit, Selune finally got her investment in all the avatars back getting "faith-XP" from all the worshippers that venerated her with different names, thus gaining enough power to hit the road again alone. Other such fragments that went their own way may be Selan of Zakhara and either Kwan Ying or Ai Ch'hing of Kara-Tur.
2 - Sune is an aspect/manifestation/incarnation of Venus/Aphrodite: if we look at the immigrant greek/egyptian/mesopotamian deities in the same way we look at Faerunian deities that it may very well be that some (or maybe a lot) of the Mulhorandi and Untheri deities that "made the jump" had flings or more lasting relationships with beauty-of-the-next-door Venus. Thus even if she wasn't able to break through or circumvent the Imaskari barrier in person, she was "carried" there in the memories and minds of the other deities. Now, when confronted with the horror of Imaskari slavery, the perils of the war and even death itself (there were a lot of "Ra", "Enlil", "Bast" and so on running around as fragments of the original and getting killed by the Imaskari artificers and archmages) many of those divine soldiers, each with the same memories and willpower greater than mere mortals, may have longed for their lost paramour. And if the war with the Imaskari wasn't enough, the Orcgate Wars were another bloodbath of savagery and this time the deities themselves battled and perished, thus giving more strength to their last wishes and wills. If somehow Sune came to be in such circumstances, she surely ran away from the conflict, confused and frightened about her identity, her weakness and the unfamiliar surroundings. From then on, with the power level of a manifestation or incarnation (thus far greater than mortals), she travelled far and wide giving rise to her church.
Both of these make her a daughter of sorts (of Selune or Venus/Aphrodite), both have her well established by the time the pantheons merged (after the Fall of Netheril) as an individual deity. Now we "just" need to find what caused so great an hemorrhage of Selune's power to get her "demoted" to lesser deity and be in need of some support and protection by Sune.
Just one minor wrinkle to throw in here. We have Selune splitting TYCHE into Beshaba and Tymora. Tyche is definitely a Greek deity. Yet she's definitely in the Netherese Pantheon. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2013 : 21:17:04
|
And she is the daughter of Aphrodite and Zeus (making her also the grandaughter of Zeus... Greek gods are 'icky' that way).
Thus making Zeus and Aphrodite FR canon.
If Sune is Aphrodite, and Selune is Sune, and she tore Tyche in two, then she's a VERY bad mommy. Then again, she left her other daughter to battle her sister alone for 35,000+ years, so we know her parenting skills suck.
In 5e, I say we petition WotC to have her kids taken away and put in cosmic foster care.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 31 Oct 2013 21:18:52 |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 11:33:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And she is the daughter of Aphrodite and Zeus (making her also the grandaughter of Zeus... Greek gods are 'icky' that way).
Thus making Zeus and Aphrodite FR canon.
If Sune is Aphrodite, and Selune is Sune, and she tore Tyche in two, then she's a VERY bad mommy. Then again, she left her other daughter to battle her sister alone for 35,000+ years, so we know her parenting skills suck.
In 5e, I say we petition WotC to have her kids taken away and put in cosmic foster care.
Well, I was going to go with "we already have proof of the Netherese and Greek Pantheon's interacting". So, Tyche was allowed into the Netherese Pantheon, but wherever Aphrodite WOULD have come across, maybe instead they had to accept Sune as their goddess of beauty and Selene is maybe another aspect of Selune where Selune seized upon the name. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 13:09:42
|
| And here I thought this was going to be some kind of slash fic thread about them having a lesbian relationship... well I'll prefer to think it was that. :P |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2013 : 14:55:24
|
My thoughts on the pantheons I've discussed before, but some folks with more 'street cred' in that dept. feel a bit differently.
I think the Finnish pantheon came from the northern Hordelands region (The Taan), with the original Gur tribes, who had a thriving civilization - the Kalmyk - of their own at one point around the Bay of Raum (southern Great Ice Sea). These tribes migrated west after first contention with the Imaskari, and later contention with Taangan (Tuigan) tribes coming from the east. The last remnants of these people became Raumathar, and eventually the modern-day Raumvari (around the Lake of Mists, and closely related to the Rashemi & Nar peoples).
The Gur that first began moving west continued to do so, as more of their number pushed into their territories, until finally they crossed the Moonsea north (and the Moonsea was either not there at that time, or looked very different). The remnants of this period of migration are the Eraka of The Ride. Bear in mind, as a population migrates, its bloodlines are constantly shifting as they mix with local tribes.
Eventually the last of the Gur wanderers settled in a beautiful, fertile valley around a northern sea, and became the people of Seventon, who eventually became the Netherese. This took many centuries, and they had much contact with other groups, and thus not much of their original pantheon (the Finnish) remained intact.
The last group of people they merged with (before becomeing Netherese) were a group of north-migrating Dathite (modern day Chondathan) peoples, who brought their own gods and culture with them. The Dathites were all that remained of a very early group the Imaskari kidnapped from another world and brought to Toril, before many of them managed to revolt and escape (fleeing west and north from The Old Empires). These people brought their own pantheon with them, which had also been modified by admixture and time. This was the last remnants of the Greek Pantheon.
Thus the Netherese were predominantly of Gur/Raumvari heritage (a Conan-esque folk, with dark features and skin), and a good mix of ancient Dathite (Greek/Mediterranean) blood.
Then the Netherese attacked Thaeravel - a Talfiric people - and absorbed the survivors (which mostly became 'low Netheril'). Telemont was at the forefront of this conflict, and seized much of the Talfiric teachings for himself. This is how the Archmages learned of Shar (and others), and how that 'shadowy' corruption began to infiltrate Netherese society. They became paranoid, and the enclaves more insular. This is also when the Netherese first adopted Talona into their pantheon, who came with the Talfir subjects. The war between Talona and Kiputytto's worshipers carried on all throughout Netherese's heyday, and only ended after the great empire fell, in the last two cities standing in the Stonelands/marshes region. Some say it was their conflict that 'infected' so many Netherese archmages with madness... we will never know.
Thats how all of that played-out in MY mind, and its actually the quick-&-dirty version. As I briefly mentioned, all of these peoples had been mixing with others (including non-humans) over the course of milenia, and none of the people, nor their pantheons, were the same as when they 'started' in FR.
YMMV.
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 01 Nov 2013 15:02:31 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Selune's time under Sune
