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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 23:20:54
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| I absolutely agree with this. After all, numerous gods make there homes on one of the layers of hell. If they could so easily squash the ruler and dominate the plane why not do it. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 23:31:19
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One of the (few) consistent rules of Powers is that they are much weakened when far away from their sources of power. Any deity native to the Nine Hells would be subservient to or allied with Asmodeus (in theory, at least), and any deity native to someplace else would be siginificantly weaker (and risk total destruction!) when in the Nine Hells, where of course Meph/Asmodeus are at their most powerful.
Asmodeus does command the loyalty and obedience of every devil in the universe (in theory, at least), and Mephy answers to no one else (most of the time), so I agree that they should be able to prevail against any foolish god who dares intrude in their domains. Of course, they have little power in the Realms or most Primes, having to cultivate (and tolerate) religions and believers to gain enough power to compete against local deities. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Oct 2013 23:34:39 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 23:46:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
One of the (few) consistent rules of Powers is that they are much weakened when far away from their sources of power. Any deity native to the Nine Hells would be subservient to or allied with Asmodeus (in theory, at least), and any deity native to someplace else would be siginificantly weaker (and risk total destruction!) when in the Nine Hells, where of course Meph/Asmodeus are at their most powerful.
Except that Meph was ganked by a quasideity (Riven) while in his own homeplane. Sure, Riven used the moment of surprise, but he still was only a quasi deity. If a quasi deity can do that to Meph on his home plane, a true demigod or higher would easily squish him. Meph even remembers the pain a hundred years later
And that 2nd most powerfull yugoloth was played with by Vhaerun in his own fortress.
There's a clear picture of the realtionship between deities and archfiends in Paul's books and it's not flattering for the archfiends.
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Edited by - Mirtek on 23 Oct 2013 23:47:19 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 00:17:51
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| Ah, the worlds of post-3E D&D have become such tame, uninteresting, blandly-predictable, politically-inoffensive, religiously-neutered places. Back in the 2E era we really had to show proper respect for fiends (and well, for anyone, really) when visiting their extra-planar demesnes! People knew how to behave when their host was Archleader Of Every Baatezu In The Universe. Sigh. End micro-rant. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 24 Oct 2013 00:20:00 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 04:12:09
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| I stand by what I said earlier. There are several gods who live in Baator, including greater gods. There they would be their most powerful, not their least. Back in the day there was a Lords of the Nine write up which presented them all as having avatars - as would gods of some power. That way was better and less sloppy. A group of power hungry gods constantly struggling against each other to ascend in power in their plane and to extend their influence over other planes of the multivers. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 16:13:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
One of the (few) consistent rules of Powers is that they are much weakened when far away from their sources of power. Any deity native to the Nine Hells would be subservient to or allied with Asmodeus (in theory, at least), and any deity native to someplace else would be siginificantly weaker (and risk total destruction!) when in the Nine Hells, where of course Meph/Asmodeus are at their most powerful.
Except that Meph was ganked by a quasideity (Riven) while in his own homeplane. Sure, Riven used the moment of surprise, but he still was only a quasi deity. If a quasi deity can do that to Meph on his home plane, a true demigod or higher would easily squish him. Meph even remembers the pain a hundred years later
And that 2nd most powerfull yugoloth was played with by Vhaerun in his own fortress.
There's a clear picture of the realtionship between deities and archfiends in Paul's books and it's not flattering for the archfiends.
He's only keeping up with the changes WOTC has made. Having Asmodeus eat Azuth was important for a reason. They intended to definitively establish that archfiends aren't in the same league with gods.
Even more damning (from your perspective) is that Pharaun Mizzrym, who was a powerful drow archmage, but not absurdly so, destroyed this 2nd most powerful yugoloth (Inthracis) fairly easily in a spell battle. I can't fault Kemp for that though, because yugoloths have always been shunted aside in favor of demons and devils. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 16:13:22
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In their fight in the Shadowfell, Riven admitted that he could not beat Mephistopheles because the latter had centuries of knowledge on how to wield superior powers, unlike Riven who just had barely a century. But I agree, I think Mephistopheles was shown rather poorly (power-wise) in the book. And Mirtek is right, homemade arrows should never scratched his skin, let alone pierced. (Gerak's arrows aren't only unlimited, they're also so powerful as to penetrate an archfiend's flesh! Ha!) |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 16:21:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I absolutely agree with this. After all, numerous gods make there homes on one of the layers of hell. If they could so easily squash the ruler and dominate the plane why not do it.
This isn't true anymore. All the gods are living in the divine domain of one of the Greater Gods. Remember that deities can only send avatars. If Mephistopheles is prepared, I doubt that any deity's avatar would easily defeat him.
To address your point more directly, I also think that all of the Nine Hells would temporarily ally against any outsider. The archdevils take pride in outscheming each other to gain power and eliminate rivals. They don't want any gods thinking they can come in and start changing the hierarchy. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 16:30:53
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I stand by what I said earlier. There are several gods who live in Baator, including greater gods. There they would be their most powerful, not their least. Back in the day there was a Lords of the Nine write up which presented them all as having avatars - as would gods of some power. That way was better and less sloppy. A group of power hungry gods constantly struggling against each other to ascend in power in their plane and to extend their influence over other planes of the multiverse.
That's not a bad take - that 'The Nine' (and probably a few others) are the pantheon of hell itself.
Like any pantheon, they have a LOT of power within their sphere of influence, but relatively little outside of it.
I think part of the problem here is that we think of 'deities' as sphere(world)-only powers, but why can't there be gods of planes, or even dimensions? Whats the difference between a plane and a Crystal Sphere anyway? A sphere is just a plane with a whole lot of empty space separating the chunks of solid matter.
Not that I think thats entirely accurate - I think of the entire Prime Material as a shattered (Sundered?) plane. If thats the case, then the whole concept of 'multispheric' has to be looked at differently - if a god can be a deity of a plane, then any normal (D&D) deity should be 'a god' anywhere within the Prime, at full power (although outside of their sphere of influence, they are just 'running on batteries', and lose power quickly without followers to recharge them).
So a multispheric god like Ptah (or Corellon, etc) is most closely like an archfiend (or arch-whatever), in that they do not simply recognize a single piece of a plane as their 'home turf', they recognize the entire plane. Thus, the layers within a plane function much the same as individual worlds (spheres in PS parlance). A layer is really just a flat world. The further you move from your power-center, the faster you bleed energy (that you can't replace as easily). That's the 'home turf advantage' in a nutshell - even a clever weaker deity can beat a greater one, given enough time in their home domain. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Oct 2013 16:36:44 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2013 : 22:52:28
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Deities can of course choose to travel *in person* to another plane, rather than deploy an avatar or proxy. By doing so they can manifest more power, yet also risk utter destruction and loss of their divinity.
What of powers such as, say, the Aztec pantheon, who are worshipped on one Prime but in fact are said to originate on an Alternate Prime? Or the Mulhorandi pantheon in the Realms, who were introduced through Egyptian peoples orignally from Earth? Or interloper deities like Tyr, Mielikki, Oghma, and Silvanus? Surely they can manifest on a Prime populated by their own worshippers, and if they can do so then why can‘t other deities gain the same benefit? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2013 : 01:48:11
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I think its like Rome (or any other massive empire of your liking).
YES, you can exapnd out beyond your humble beginnings, but the further you reach, the 'thinner' your strength becomes, and it becomes easier fo everything to just fall apart. So yeah, they can grab a lot of power quickly (maybe), but they won't hold onto it for long.
The gods who have been around the longest - like the Vedic pantheon - use the 'slow and steady' approach to expansion; they enter a world, build and secure their power base, and after a few thosuand years, consider expanding to another world.
You stretch yourself too thin, and expand too quickly, you won't even have enough avatars to go around. Those can be further split into weaker manifestations, but that risks losing that power (to defeat by another local power, or even a mortal).
Picture a cup of sulfuric acid poured on your foot. OUCH. Now picture it being poured into the ocean, and you jump in. You don't even notice the acid. The more they split themselves up, the more 'diluted' (weaker) they become. They need to keep their power concentrated into areas where they know they have the most secure positions - anything else is a big risk.
Like I said, I think the generic (core) 'rule' is that any deity of the Prime Material Plane may start to attract followers on any world. That seems the be the case on many other planes (thinking about the archfiends right now). However, each world (sphere or layer) has its own, 'local' rules in-place, such as FR's godwall, which Ao has to allow deities through before they can emigrate (interlope). I don't think this is the natural (core) order of the multiverse - I think this is something he personally enforces just in Realmspace (which may be a hold-over from the godwar). If each sphere has its own 'guardian' (Overgod), then each is entitled to handle interloping as he sees fit.
Its like how we have federal, state, and local laws in the U.S. - thats how I see the multiverse working. Ao is little more then a 'traffic cop' in the greater scheme of things.
Most of these deities probably know each other from other worlds (and may even be in the same pantheons on those worlds), or even from the Great Wheel, which acts like a 'cosmic United Nations', of sorts. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Oct 2013 01:49:53 |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2013 : 08:41:12
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Before reading The Godborn, I was sure that Cale would become Mask.
In any case I voted "should have returned as himself" for the sake of future stories.
Because:
1) Cale is most fun as Chosen of Mask. Now that Riven is Mask, Cale will not pray to him and likely not be his chosen neither. So what will be his purpose?
Kind of weird imagining future novels with father and son together btw.
2) Riven will now not be part of the group anymore
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"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2013 : 08:40:22
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Father-son duo in novels is weird? Maybe. But it's been done before. Pug and Magnus (though not FR) make up a "good" team. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2014 : 09:04:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
[br Except that Meph was ganked by a quasideity (Riven) while in his own homeplane. Sure, Riven used the moment of surprise, but he still was only a quasi deity. If a quasi deity can do that to Meph on his home plane, a true demigod or higher would easily squish him. Meph even remembers the pain a hundred years later
And that 2nd most powerfull yugoloth was played with by Vhaerun in his own fortress.
There's a clear picture of the realtionship between deities and archfiends in Paul's books and it's not flattering for the archfiends.
Was Riven only a quasi diety? He was able to hear the prayers of faithful. That tells me he could possibly grant spells - something I believe only a Demi God or higher can do.
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dmgorgon
Acolyte
28 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 16:35:33
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Mask should have been given the credit for the murder of Bhaal and not Cyric. After all he was the sword that Cyric (as a mortal) used to backstab him with during the Time of Troubles.
Perhaps they can connect his return to that event in some way since the Tablets of fate are going to return. |
Edited by - dmgorgon on 02 Jan 2014 16:38:26 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 20:37:17
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quote:
Originally posted by dmgorgon
Mask should have been given the credit for the murder of Bhaal and not Cyric. After all he was the sword that Cyric (as a mortal) used to backstab him with during the Time of Troubles.
Perhaps they can connect his return to that event in some way since the Tablets of fate are going to return.
The sword wasn't wielding itself. It was Cyric who did the stabbing. |
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dmgorgon
Acolyte
28 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 20:59:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dmgorgon
Mask should have been given the credit for the murder of Bhaal and not Cyric. After all he was the sword that Cyric (as a mortal) used to backstab him with during the Time of Troubles.
Perhaps they can connect his return to that event in some way since the Tablets of fate are going to return.
The sword wasn't wielding itself. It was Cyric who did the stabbing.
The swords power (mask) killed Bhaal... I'd argue that Cyric could not have killed Bhaal without that sword (Mask). If I recal that was the explanation given in the Prince of Lies.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2014 : 23:52:36
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quote:
Originally posted by dmgorgon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dmgorgon
Mask should have been given the credit for the murder of Bhaal and not Cyric. After all he was the sword that Cyric (as a mortal) used to backstab him with during the Time of Troubles.
Perhaps they can connect his return to that event in some way since the Tablets of fate are going to return.
The sword wasn't wielding itself. It was Cyric who did the stabbing.
The swords power (mask) killed Bhaal... I'd argue that Cyric could not have killed Bhaal without that sword (Mask). If I recal that was the explanation given in the Prince of Lies.
Cyric could not have killed Bhaal without divine assistance, which Mask provided. But Cyric was still the one holding the blade. If he'd've chosen to go elsewhere or not stabbed Bhaal, then Bhaal wouldn't have died.
The sword was a weapon. Weapons don't do anything if they aren't in someone's hand. Cyric's hand, Cyric's decision to stab, Cyric's action -- Cyric's kill. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 10:35:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dmgorgon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dmgorgon
Mask should have been given the credit for the murder of Bhaal and not Cyric. After all he was the sword that Cyric (as a mortal) used to backstab him with during the Time of Troubles.
Perhaps they can connect his return to that event in some way since the Tablets of fate are going to return.
The sword wasn't wielding itself. It was Cyric who did the stabbing.
The swords power (mask) killed Bhaal... I'd argue that Cyric could not have killed Bhaal without that sword (Mask). If I recal that was the explanation given in the Prince of Lies.
Cyric could not have killed Bhaal without divine assistance, which Mask provided. But Cyric was still the one holding the blade. If he'd've chosen to go elsewhere or not stabbed Bhaal, then Bhaal wouldn't have died.
The sword was a weapon. Weapons don't do anything if they aren't in someone's hand. Cyric's hand, Cyric's decision to stab, Cyric's action -- Cyric's kill.
Agreed. Imagine where we'll be if we start granting our kills to our intelligent weapons. Next they'll want the XP too. The humanity! 
But seriously, I agree.
Now, thanks for this thread, it clarified the issue a bit for me (and made me think more about my own multiverse-and-gods model). I can't really choose an option though, I'd say give the power to the original Mask, but that's just because he's the only character there that I really know. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 11 Mar 2014 10:37:01 |
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The Return of the God of _______ (Spoilers)
