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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Oct 2013 : 16:49:49
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It boggles my mind how Telamont fails to detect the atrophy of the Source prior to its fall. No, he's not a god. No, he's not omnipotent nor all-knowing. But Sakkors, and by extension, the Source, has been an important part of his empire that it stands to reason he should have mind-linked it to himself or at least put some alarm spells around or in it so he would know if it malfunctions or is tampered. But no, he's too busy capturing a plethora of Chosen that he would just let Sakkors fall to its doom--literally.
Anyway, we know that a mythallar powers magical items within a certain radius, lifts an enclave, and may be used by its crafter (or whoever the crafter deigns allow) to focus magical energy and augment his spellcraft. And we also know that each mythallar is unique, often mirroring the personality of its creator. But doesn't it stand to reason that its crafter (or whoever repossesses it upon the crafter's demise) should be able to detect any form of anomaly in it?
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 18 Oct 2013 17:22:23
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2013 : 18:15:50
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| Mythallars are just magical batteries. I've not seen anything saying that each is unique, and I certainly don't see why someone would have to be linked to one at all. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2013 : 18:27:13
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The mythallar of Thultanthar is linked to Telamont, or he placed some trigger in it that allows him to detect its condition. Why he didn't do the same to the Source, IDK.
And yes, each is unique. The Source is one such proof. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2013 : 20:51:46
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Ah, well, the limitations may not be imposed by the mythallar, but instead by Telamont.
Signs of mythallar decay, entropy, and imminent failure may indeed have been increasingly evident - after all, “impossible“ catastrophic breakdowns are often caused by the simultaneous cumulative breakdown of many little things, symptoms of collapse which are individually annoying/trivial yet collectively disastrous.
When we ask if Telamont was “blind“ to sensing the obvious, the question really becomes:
Was Telamont arrogantly blind to seeing what he didn‘t want/expect to see, dire beginnings of the unthinkable final fall of Netheril?
Or was Telamont purposely manipulated/deceived by some external agency? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 14 Oct 2013 01:22:02 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 01:32:44
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In response to Wooly - if a mythallar is a magical battery (or, as I prefer to think of them, a magical engine) then it should be quite easy to construct quasi-magical “power meters“ which a trained arcanist can use to determine overall levels and flows and (in)efficiencies in mythallar emissions. Each mythallar is a semi-unique superscalar magical construct, a career-building hallmark and lifetime achievement for an archwizard, capable of maintaining the magical demands of an entire city indefinitely. It stands to reason that some rudimentary diagnostic capabilities would be sort of standard issue in such an expensive and complex feat of magical engineering.
I understand Telamont is a busy guy, it might even be argued that his shady nature prohibits “natural“ interactions with a living mythallar. But he has access to all manner of underlings who could maintain his infrastructure as needed. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 03:10:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The mythallar of Thultanthar is linked to Telamont, or he placed some trigger in it that allows him to detect its condition. Why he didn't do the same to the Source, IDK.
And yes, each is unique. The Source is one such proof.
I don't see that as indication that each and every mythallar is unique. Simply, that the mythallar of Thultanthar is a unique instance of a mythallar. We've really had no specific lore that tells us each and every referenced mythallar in the past, has or have been unique. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 04:04:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Ah, well, the limitations may not be imposed by the mythallar, but instead by Telamont.
Signs of mythallar decay, entropy, and imminent failure may indeed have been increasingly evident - after all, “impossible“ catastrophic breakdowns are often caused by the simultaneous cumulative breakdown of many little things, symptoms of collapse which are individually annoying/trivial yet collectively disastrous.
When we ask if Telamont was “blind“ to sensing the obvious, the question really becomes:
Was Telamont arrogantly blind to seeing what he didn‘t want/expect to see, dire beginnings of the unthinkable final fall of Netheril?
Or was Telamont purposely manipulated/deceived by some external agency?
I'd like to think that were the case, or perhaps in future novels we'd see that. However, in the present context, that being The Godborn, there's no indication whatsoever. The two possible suspects are Rivalen and Mephistopheles, but they gain almost nothing for doing it, and they're too busy doing "other stuff" to further their priority agenda. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sagechan
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 04:10:31
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| IIRC The Source was unique in that its a Sentient mythallar. The mythallar was failing because the Source's sentience was dying. The Princes of Shade are not Psions which is why Magadon (aided by his previous contact with the Source) was able to detect the failure. Plus Telemont spends most of his time in Shade enclave, Brennus was the Prince manning Sakkors and he was obsessed with other matters. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 05:03:03
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Plausible reasons, sagechan. However, Telamont is able to shield himself against Mags's psionic attack, an indication that mind magic is within the bound of his "expertise." Besides, he's able to tell/"divine" in the end that the Source is dying, so why not have such permanent spell on his person--that is, if he really cares for the mythallar. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 05:09:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
In response to Wooly - if a mythallar is a magical battery (or, as I prefer to think of them, a magical engine) then it should be quite easy to construct quasi-magical “power meters“ which a trained arcanist can use to determine overall levels and flows and (in)efficiencies in mythallar emissions. Each mythallar is a semi-unique superscalar magical construct, a career-building hallmark and lifetime achievement for an archwizard, capable of maintaining the magical demands of an entire city indefinitely. It stands to reason that some rudimentary diagnostic capabilities would be sort of standard issue in such an expensive and complex feat of magical engineering.
I understand Telamont is a busy guy, it might even be argued that his shady nature prohibits “natural“ interactions with a living mythallar. But he has access to all manner of underlings who could maintain his infrastructure as needed.
Oh, I agree that there could be monitoring mechanisms. My issue was with the assertion that all mythallars are unique, or that there is some need for someone to be linked to one. |
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sagechan
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 05:36:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Plausible reasons, sagechan. However, Telamont is able to shield himself against Mags's psionic attack, an indication that mind magic is within the bound of his "expertise." Besides, he's able to tell/"divine" in the end that the Source is dying, so why not have such permanent spell on his person--that is, if he really cares for the mythallar.
Also a fair point, but I think its simply explained by the fact that Telemont doesn't really seem to spend any time on Sakkors. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 06:23:08
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quote:
Originally posted by sagechan
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Plausible reasons, sagechan. However, Telamont is able to shield himself against Mags's psionic attack, an indication that mind magic is within the bound of his "expertise." Besides, he's able to tell/"divine" in the end that the Source is dying, so why not have such permanent spell on his person--that is, if he really cares for the mythallar.
Also a fair point, but I think its simply explained by the fact that Telemont doesn't really seem to spend any time on Sakkors.
Sakkors is sometimes relatively far from Shade Enclave, as it's more mobile than the latter. So perhaps Telamont's spell that monitors Sakkors's mythallar can only stretch so much. Distance might have been a factor. However, I was thinking of how a lich treats his phyllactery. If Telamont really, really valued Sakkors, he should have placed the necessary monitoring spells in it--that no matter how far it goes, he still can detect it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 06:25:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I understand Telamont is a busy guy, it might even be argued that his shady nature prohibits “natural“ interactions with a living mythallar. But he has access to all manner of underlings who could maintain his infrastructure as needed.
Doubtful. He controls underlings that are living and undead alike. He shouldn't have any difficulty controlling anything that's just quasi-sentient. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 13:54:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It boggles my mind how Telamont fails to detect the atrophy of the Source prior to its fall. No, he's not a god. No, he's not omnipotent nor all-knowing. But Sakkors, and by extension, the Source, has been an important part of his empire that it stands to reason he should have mind-linked it to himself or at least put some alarm spells around or in it so he would know if it malfunctions or is tampered. But no, he's too busy capturing a plethora of Chosen that he would just let Sakkors fall to its doom--literally.
Anyway, we know that a mythallar powers magical items within a certain radius, lifts an enclave, and may used by its crafter (or whoever the crafter deigns allow) to focus magical energy and augment his spellcraft. And we also know that each mythallar is unique, often mirroring the personality of its creator. But doesn't it stand to reason that its crafter (or whoever repossesses it upon the crafter's demise) should be able to detect any form of anomaly in it?
Errr, while it is likely he has some sort of Spells on the Shade enclave to detect everything going on around him, it is unlikely he is able to do so in another place. unlikely or not worth the Exp.
Keep in mind just how much permanency spells cost from your personal being. It is like using a wish spell. It costs you. Even smaller spells like permanent wards on your person, or permanent see invisible, etc, costs a lot of experience. Imagine how much it cost him over the years to set permanency spells on the entire shade enclave given the size of the thing. Mages often do ward up and beef up their personal sanctums with wards, spellpools, and the ability to call upon items at will to make it daunting to fight them there. But they are not gods and cannot do it in several places at once without great cost to themselves.
And why would he specifically key in a spell to detect the lifeforce of a sentient Mythallar? The impression I got before this book was that even if the sentience was dormant or not there, it would still function as a normal inert Mythallar. It was a surprise to myself, and likely, the characters that its sentience was tied to lifespan since Mythallars rarely fail.
And Mythallars do not exactly fail all that often. Such detection spells often need to be specific, and while I am sure he was keeping watch for Phaerimm lifedrain spells(One of the few known ways to bring down a Mythallar) and intruders, I am sure he is not able to think and cast every possible danger to the Mythallar, pr predict how a unique Mythallar will last without it sentience. Magadon was able to tap into the Mythallar itself before he was even beside it because it wanted him to, and likely aided him in evading intruder alert. Tapping into the Mythallar for all intents and purposes turned Mags from a mid level psion to likely one of the most powerful psions on the planet, complete with knowledge of how to use it and a match for any super caster. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2013 : 22:31:29
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I would say there ARE unique mythallars, but that most that were created were of a certain variety. All of the mythallars were based off the original; at first all research attempting to duplicate this feat of magic was either guided by Ioulam or totally independent. Those guided by Ioulam would be of the standard type. The independent could be unique. Later there were literally schools in which the 'thesis' project was the creation of one's own mythallar these would once again be the standard variety 99% of the time.
I only know of 4 other kinds of mythallars:
Shade's shadow magic infused mythallar (idk if the shadow magic was part of its creation or a later adaptation)
The Source
A negative energy mythallar - I'm not sure where I remember this from but it stands to reason it was created by a Lich - perhaps the Lichlord?
An magic absorbing mythallar - this one was the cause of the first enclave to fall from the sky.
Certainly there are endless other possibilities but those are what we have so far. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6689 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2013 : 06:01:53
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I think The Masked Mage has the right of it. We tend to think of Netheril as a cohesive nation when in actuality it was a fragmented, dysfunctional and suspicious coalition of independent entities, united only to the extent that they could mobilise to deal with significant and tangible external threats (i.e. orc hordes).
I hazard a guess that the majority of mythallars were different in the way they looked, operated and accessed the Weave. Their commonality was that they supplied a raw source of power by which spells and magic items could be powered, but this no doubt differed from mythallar to mythallar and enclave to enclave. Some may have prevented certain schools of magic and items from operating, others may have worked randomly (a bit like a wild magic table with only beneficial results), while others still may have worked only for magic items. Ed conceived Netheril as the chief explanation for the majority of unexplained magic he hurled continuously at his players (because he liked to keep them on their toes and roleplay rather than rollplay) and as such it must have been flexible enough to countenance and embrace anything to do with magic. I like to think that the "Netheril" boxed set gave us only a snapshot of what Netheril was about and what existed there. As a land of fabulous wonder and lost might and majesty, it should never be truncated and pigeon-holed. That limits the great stories and explanations that flowed from it in ways Ed never intended both for his own campaign and the Realms at large.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2013 : 15:39:16
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Post 2e, 'negative energy' and 'shadow energy' are the same thing, AFAIK.
Commentary on Krash's commentary:
First, agreed about their 'nation'. It was far more like the Greek Citystates then anything recognizable today. Even places like Sembia and Chessenta have more unity. The biggest threat to an archnmmage and his/her enclave was another archmage and enclave.
Second, think of Mythallars as a really 'high tech' type of analogy. When the US had its Space Shuttle program, originally all shuttles had the same design... but no two turned out the same. As the technology progressed (and needs and information changed), they tweaked the design each time. The first and last in the series were nothing alike. In fact, IIRC, the first was never used as more then a publicity stunt, because it's tech was already outdated by the time it was completed (the thing had analog gauges!)
So this is what happens with real 'state of the art' uber-equipment - each one built is very different. For example, no two super-colliders are alike. Thus, Every single mythallar was a bit different then every other, just as no two Mythals are precisely the same, just as no two liches are precisely the same, etc. The techniques, personalities, and needs involved are as different as the time periods during which they are made. Each is a unique artifact.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Oct 2013 12:04:22 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2013 : 17:20:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It boggles my mind how Telamont fails to detect the atrophy of the Source prior to its fall. No, he's not a god. No, he's not omnipotent nor all-knowing. But Sakkors, and by extension, the Source, has been an important part of his empire that it stands to reason he should have mind-linked it to himself or at least put some alarm spells around or in it so he would know if it malfunctions or is tampered. But no, he's too busy capturing a plethora of Chosen that he would just let Sakkors fall to its doom--literally.
Anyway, we know that a mythallar powers magical items within a certain radius, lifts an enclave, and may used by its crafter (or whoever the crafter deigns allow) to focus magical energy and augment his spellcraft. And we also know that each mythallar is unique, often mirroring the personality of its creator. But doesn't it stand to reason that its crafter (or whoever repossesses it upon the crafter's demise) should be able to detect any form of anomaly in it?
Errr, while it is likely he has some sort of Spells on the Shade enclave to detect everything going on around him, it is unlikely he is able to do so in another place. unlikely or not worth the Exp.
Keep in mind just how much permanency spells cost from your personal being. It is like using a wish spell. It costs you. Even smaller spells like permanent wards on your person, or permanent see invisible, etc, costs a lot of experience. Imagine how much it cost him over the years to set permanency spells on the entire shade enclave given the size of the thing. Mages often do ward up and beef up their personal sanctums with wards, spellpools, and the ability to call upon items at will to make it daunting to fight them there. But they are not gods and cannot do it in several places at once without great cost to themselves.
And why would he specifically key in a spell to detect the lifeforce of a sentient Mythallar? The impression I got before this book was that even if the sentience was dormant or not there, it would still function as a normal inert Mythallar. It was a surprise to myself, and likely, the characters that its sentience was tied to lifespan since Mythallars rarely fail.
And Mythallars do not exactly fail all that often. Such detection spells often need to be specific, and while I am sure he was keeping watch for Phaerimm lifedrain spells(One of the few known ways to bring down a Mythallar) and intruders, I am sure he is not able to think and cast every possible danger to the Mythallar, pr predict how a unique Mythallar will last without it sentience. Magadon was able to tap into the Mythallar itself before he was even beside it because it wanted him to, and likely aided him in evading intruder alert. Tapping into the Mythallar for all intents and purposes turned Mags from a mid level psion to likely one of the most powerful psions on the planet, complete with knowledge of how to use it and a match for any super caster.
As the saying goes, "If there's a will, there's a way." If he really valued Sakkors as much as he valued Shade, he would have found means to ensure he knew the Source's condition every second of every day. Aumvor invented the fragmented phyllactery, and likely, he knows exactly what happens to each and every one of them every second. If Telamont treats the mythallars like a lich treats his phyllactery, then he should have known better than to let the Source atrophy without his knowledge.
As for Mags, meh. I usually found him annoying. I give him credit for inflicting a terrible headache (with matching nosebleed) to Telamont, but given that he was directly tapping into the Source's very power, he should have at least knock the Most High off his feet. But no, Telamont remained standing, and even used just one finger to ward his mind against Mags' psychic attack. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2013 : 18:10:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Post 2e, 'negative energy' and 'shadow energy' are the same thing, AFAIK.
Did they get rid of the + / - material planes, and if so what were they thinking? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2013 : 12:07:16
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From what I understand, the negative Plane was rolled into the Shadowfel, but I think that may have happened in 3e (When the Shadowfel was simply called 'the Plane of Shadows'). Ravenloft's demiplane also got rolled into all of that.
I think the Positive energy plane has been gone since 3e (not sure when, but I am sure its been gone awhile). Nothing took its place, AFAIK. If anything, 'positive energy' has just been rolled into 'Divine Energy'.
Personally, I am totally in favor of all of that. I didn't like them separating the worlds back in 3e (one of my few DEEP dislikes of 3e), and getting rid of the Planescape cosmology, but combining the above stuff (and getting rid of the positive plane) was something I could live with. I like the idea of having access to the Domains of Dread from any world (not that we couldn't do that before, it just seems a bit... closer.. now). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Oct 2013 12:11:52 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12229 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2013 : 00:16:34
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| You know, this discussion brings up a question. In regards the special magic items that worked with mythallars (quasi-magical items I think was the name in 2nd edition) but wouldn't work outside the range of the mythallar..... I wonder if some mythallars had a certain "kind" of magic field. Consider it like American 110 volts, sometimes 220 volts and Europeans using 120 volts and 240 volts... then figure in AC v/s DC current types. Now figure in that we've only had electrical devices for what... 200 - 250 years'ish. We're still improving batteries, etc... so maybe you have a blast scepter that will only work within range of the mythallar for city X. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2013 : 00:40:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It boggles my mind how Telamont fails to detect the atrophy of the Source prior to its fall. No, he's not a god. No, he's not omnipotent nor all-knowing. But Sakkors, and by extension, the Source, has been an important part of his empire that it stands to reason he should have mind-linked it to himself or at least put some alarm spells around or in it so he would know if it malfunctions or is tampered. But no, he's too busy capturing a plethora of Chosen that he would just let Sakkors fall to its doom--literally.
Anyway, we know that a mythallar powers magical items within a certain radius, lifts an enclave, and may used by its crafter (or whoever the crafter deigns allow) to focus magical energy and augment his spellcraft. And we also know that each mythallar is unique, often mirroring the personality of its creator. But doesn't it stand to reason that its crafter (or whoever repossesses it upon the crafter's demise) should be able to detect any form of anomaly in it?
Errr, while it is likely he has some sort of Spells on the Shade enclave to detect everything going on around him, it is unlikely he is able to do so in another place. unlikely or not worth the Exp.
Keep in mind just how much permanency spells cost from your personal being. It is like using a wish spell. It costs you. Even smaller spells like permanent wards on your person, or permanent see invisible, etc, costs a lot of experience. Imagine how much it cost him over the years to set permanency spells on the entire shade enclave given the size of the thing. Mages often do ward up and beef up their personal sanctums with wards, spellpools, and the ability to call upon items at will to make it daunting to fight them there. But they are not gods and cannot do it in several places at once without great cost to themselves.
And why would he specifically key in a spell to detect the lifeforce of a sentient Mythallar? The impression I got before this book was that even if the sentience was dormant or not there, it would still function as a normal inert Mythallar. It was a surprise to myself, and likely, the characters that its sentience was tied to lifespan since Mythallars rarely fail.
And Mythallars do not exactly fail all that often. Such detection spells often need to be specific, and while I am sure he was keeping watch for Phaerimm lifedrain spells(One of the few known ways to bring down a Mythallar) and intruders, I am sure he is not able to think and cast every possible danger to the Mythallar, pr predict how a unique Mythallar will last without it sentience. Magadon was able to tap into the Mythallar itself before he was even beside it because it wanted him to, and likely aided him in evading intruder alert. Tapping into the Mythallar for all intents and purposes turned Mags from a mid level psion to likely one of the most powerful psions on the planet, complete with knowledge of how to use it and a match for any super caster.
As the saying goes, "If there's a will, there's a way." If he really valued Sakkors as much as he valued Shade, he would have found means to ensure he knew the Source's condition every second of every day. Aumvor invented the fragmented phyllactery, and likely, he knows exactly what happens to each and every one of them every second. If Telamont treats the mythallars like a lich treats his phyllactery, then he should have known better than to let the Source atrophy without his knowledge.
As for Mags, meh. I usually found him annoying. I give him credit for inflicting a terrible headache (with matching nosebleed) to Telamont, but given that he was directly tapping into the Source's very power, he should have at least knock the Most High off his feet. But no, Telamont remained standing, and even used just one finger to ward his mind against Mags' psychic attack.
I think I laid it all out pretty well. You seem to think the high level NPC's should be virtually gods with near limitless power and act as though they should be infallible all knowing machines with contingency spells for every scenario. Which is ridiculous.
Mythallar's rarely fail.
Aumvor knowing the state of his phylacteries, even every piece, is not likely a difficult feat given they are probably the size of pebbles and he could have cast a spell that encompassed them all before scattering them. That and, well, his very soul is contained in them, probably making it that much easier. Either way it is complete speculation since we do not know if Aumvor knows where all his phylactery pieces are or their state. That is mere assumption.
We are talking a city here, not a pebble sized phylactery piece.
In any case, my previous post is pretty dead on and covers everything |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6689 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2013 : 01:08:02
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
You know, this discussion brings up a question. In regards the special magic items that worked with mythallars (quasi-magical items I think was the name in 2nd edition) but wouldn't work outside the range of the mythallar..... I wonder if some mythallars had a certain "kind" of magic field. Consider it like American 110 volts, sometimes 220 volts and Europeans using 120 volts and 240 volts... then figure in AC v/s DC current types. Now figure in that we've only had electrical devices for what... 200 - 250 years'ish. We're still improving batteries, etc... so maybe you have a blast scepter that will only work within range of the mythallar for city X.
I think that's exactly how things worked, sleyvas. The items powered by the mythallar in enclave X didn't work in enclave Y. I'd also posit that mythallar fields couldn't overlap and if they got too close to each other, then ... "bad things" happened.
That's why in my Netheril the wizards who used mythallars and created enclaves were just one of a number of wizard groups. There were the wizards who cleaved to the style of magic first taught to them by the elves of Illefarn. Others who focused on planar stuff. A group who were fascinated by extradimensional spaces and demiplanes, etc etc.
I would love to see Netheril given some real meat. If only Steven Schend had been given that project instead of slade.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12229 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2013 : 14:35:52
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
You know, this discussion brings up a question. In regards the special magic items that worked with mythallars (quasi-magical items I think was the name in 2nd edition) but wouldn't work outside the range of the mythallar..... I wonder if some mythallars had a certain "kind" of magic field. Consider it like American 110 volts, sometimes 220 volts and Europeans using 120 volts and 240 volts... then figure in AC v/s DC current types. Now figure in that we've only had electrical devices for what... 200 - 250 years'ish. We're still improving batteries, etc... so maybe you have a blast scepter that will only work within range of the mythallar for city X.
I think that's exactly how things worked, sleyvas. The items powered by the mythallar in enclave X didn't work in enclave Y. I'd also posit that mythallar fields couldn't overlap and if they got too close to each other, then ... "bad things" happened.
That's why in my Netheril the wizards who used mythallars and created enclaves were just one of a number of wizard groups. There were the wizards who cleaved to the style of magic first taught to them by the elves of Illefarn. Others who focused on planar stuff. A group who were fascinated by extradimensional spaces and demiplanes, etc etc.
I would love to see Netheril given some real meat. If only Steven Schend had been given that project instead of slade.
-- George Krashos
This could thereby be explainable with some oddities between citizens of certain Netherese cities in modern day wanting to stay in their certain city, etc... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2013 : 15:04:58
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Think of how many uber-artifacts might be just lying around Anauroch, because no-one can detect them when they are dormant.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
You know, this discussion brings up a question. In regards the special magic items that worked with mythallars (quasi-magical items I think was the name in 2nd edition) but wouldn't work outside the range of the mythallar..... I wonder if some mythallars had a certain "kind" of magic field. Consider it like American 110 volts, sometimes 220 volts and Europeans using 120 volts and 240 volts... then figure in AC v/s DC current types. Now figure in that we've only had electrical devices for what... 200 - 250 years'ish. We're still improving batteries, etc... so maybe you have a blast scepter that will only work within range of the mythallar for city X.
I think that's exactly how things worked, sleyvas. The items powered by the mythallar in enclave X didn't work in enclave Y. I'd also posit that mythallar fields couldn't overlap and if they got too close to each other, then ... "bad things" happened.
So they couldn't just go to Radio Shack and buy an adapter?
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I would love to see Netheril given some real meat. If only Steven Schend had been given that project instead of Slade.
SOOOO in agreement with this statement.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Oct 2013 13:01:35 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12229 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2013 : 03:06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
You know, this discussion brings up a question. In regards the special magic items that worked with mythallars (quasi-magical items I think was the name in 2nd edition) but wouldn't work outside the range of the mythallar..... I wonder if some mythallars had a certain "kind" of magic field. Consider it like American 110 volts, sometimes 220 volts and Europeans using 120 volts and 240 volts... then figure in AC v/s DC current types. Now figure in that we've only had electrical devices for what... 200 - 250 years'ish. We're still improving batteries, etc... so maybe you have a blast scepter that will only work within range of the mythallar for city X.
I think that's exactly how things worked, sleyvas. The items powered by the mythallar in enclave X didn't work in enclave Y. I'd also posit that mythallar fields couldn't overlap and if they got too close to each other, then ... "bad things" happened.
That's why in my Netheril the wizards who used mythallars and created enclaves were just one of a number of wizard groups. There were the wizards who cleaved to the style of magic first taught to them by the elves of Illefarn. Others who focused on planar stuff. A group who were fascinated by extradimensional spaces and demiplanes, etc etc.
I would love to see Netheril given some real meat. If only Steven Schend had been given that project instead of slade.
-- George Krashos
This could thereby be explainable with some oddities between citizens of certain Netherese cities in modern day wanting to stay in their certain city, etc...
Actually, the more I think on this particular idea, this could have sparked some internal warring within the empire (kind of like Tesla and Edison). This could really be turned into something interesting:
Let me start by putting forth some scenarios and then I'd love to hear other people's takes on it.
1st) Netherese cities are less likely to attack one another because the quasi-magical items from city X won't work whenever they attack city Y. Meanwhile city Y obviously won't be disadvantaged and will be on home turf as well.
2nd) Loyalty to a given enclave is made easier by supplying items to its defenders that will not work if they change sides to another enclave.
3rd) as Markustay hinted at, there would be a market of some kind of adapters, but each type of adapter may be specific to converting city X to city Y, or city X to city B, or city Y to city B, etc... therefore, it might not be easy to find said adapter devices. Especially since there may be kill orders on anyone who creates an adapter that converts quasi items from city X to any other power source by the rulers of city X.
4th) All adapters mentioned above that could be captured would NOT be destroyed. Rather city X would capture them and place them in their armory. Said captured adapters would be used to aid in espionage or other purposes in which loyalists from city X found themselves in another Enclave. They would only be issued to those extremely loyal to city X, and their recovery in the event of an agent's death would be of high priority.
5th) I do like the idea of these mythallars having unintended consequences when coming into contact with one another. I'd say take this a little further with these adapters on a small scale. Perhaps there is a chance of basically a wild magic effect occurring when trying to use an adapter to power a magic item meant for city X while in city Y. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2013 : 13:05:59
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Precisely.
The very nature of the Mythallars and the flying (isolated) enclaves would be to engender a feeling of xenophobia amongst the populace. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2013 : 14:20:07
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
1st) Netherese cities are less likely to attack one another because the quasi-magical items from city X won't work whenever they attack city Y. Meanwhile city Y obviously won't be disadvantaged and will be on home turf as well.
They can attack from a distance, as is practical. Remember, in Dangerous Games, Karsus's and Ioulaum's Enclaves were hurling spells after spells at each other. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12229 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2013 : 14:30:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
1st) Netherese cities are less likely to attack one another because the quasi-magical items from city X won't work whenever they attack city Y. Meanwhile city Y obviously won't be disadvantaged and will be on home turf as well.
They can attack from a distance, as is practical. Remember, in Dangerous Games, Karsus's and Ioulaum's Enclaves were hurling spells after spells at each other.
Yeah, but there are range limitations, and just like pirate ships, at some point you do have to "board" the other city if you want to get at its booty or break into areas that are heavily defended. If you add in the idea that if the two get too close bad stuff starts happening, then there's even more encouragement to have to raid the enemy. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2013 : 07:28:35
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
1st) Netherese cities are less likely to attack one another because the quasi-magical items from city X won't work whenever they attack city Y. Meanwhile city Y obviously won't be disadvantaged and will be on home turf as well.
They can attack from a distance, as is practical. Remember, in Dangerous Games, Karsus's and Ioulaum's Enclaves were hurling spells after spells at each other.
Yeah, but there are range limitations, and just like pirate ships, at some point you do have to "board" the other city if you want to get at its booty or break into areas that are heavily defended. If you add in the idea that if the two get too close bad stuff starts happening, then there's even more encouragement to have to raid the enemy.
Well, anywhere not within the radius of the enemy mythallar is fine. And the aforementioned two examples did just that. And they don't really have to "board" the enemy enclave if all they want is to completely bring it down. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2013 : 07:30:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
We are talking a city here, not a pebble sized phylactery piece.
No, Telamont does not necessarily have to know everything that happens in Sakkors, just the mythallar, the Source. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Topic |
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On the Nature of Mythallars (Spoilers)
