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Simon Says
Acolyte
36 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 23:44:15
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This is my attempt to begin a healthy dialogue about Forgotten Realms novels. We shall see how far it prevails, or remains true to this, its honorable roots.
They say “Critics are only people who can’t write but, wishing they could, live vicariously through the works of others, often heaping harsh criticism on works they themselves would have no hope of ever duplicating if they tried.”
This is probably true in many respects, and with many critics. Me, however ... I just like telling people what to read, see, and hear.
I like telling people what to do. It’s a fault. :)
In a feeble attempt to deflect what may be a dearth of bile and hateful responses, I would like to say, first and foremost, I am a Dungeons & Dragons fan to the utter core. Better, I am a Forgotten Realms fan, and have been following the series—--and its novels—--since the “Old Gray Box”.
I want nothing short of the best for Faerun; it is my home away from home, and when it sings to me its sweet song, I sing with it. And when it stinks to high heaven, I die just a little bit.
So it is with middling joy and tepid sorrow that I can safely declare I have yet to find utter perfection or utter garbage. Most Forgotten Realms books find a happy middle ground with me. I enjoy them—--but I always see something I would have changed, written in, or edited. Likely most of you share this middle ground with me.
If so, this is the thread for you. I am not here to blast authors; I humbly ask the trolls of this world to keep away, and for people not to post unless they have something substantial to add. “Simon Sux!” may be amusing, but it is hardly an insightful—--or groundbreaking—--comment.
It is my hope that other authors will get involved in the conversations. Not just the subjects of the varied critiques, but others as well. I am fully aware that negative comments regarding WotC books are oftentimes looked upon as an attack against all the authors. A quick marshalling of forces would often commence, with all authors taking the side of the attacked writer (correctly perceived or no), closing ranks against the daring interloper. Even those authors who might agree with a critique or comment are more likely to remain silent rather than say anything, and I understand this professional courtesy. I do. I do not ask you to compromise yourselves.
I ask, and hope, my comments (and the reasonable comments of others) will be taken and digested before reaction is given. Undoubtedly an author or two will be put off by my comments, seeing them as hubris, or as the uneducated view of an outsider who cannot possibly know the business.
And they may be right: I am no professional writer, nor am I a paid editor. I am just a teacher. I do what I do. And I am not always right; I am as willing to be shown the wrong of things as anyone. I will take all replies with a grain of salt, no matter how bad the wound, no matter how much salt is poured in. I am a married man—--my ego has fallen to the status of “safely nonexistent”.
:D
I imagine I will learn as much from these discussions as anyone. There’s always room to learn. Always.
It is with love that I do this. But feel free to lambaste me in advance.
In this thread, I welcome discussion regarding critiques, and critics, as a whole. My next thread will be a critique of Thomas M. Reid’s “The Sapphire Crescent”. With all my critiques, spoilers abound. Now go buy “The Sapphire Crescent” and join me in a day or so!
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And the trees were all kept equal - by hatchet, axe, and saw. --Peart |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2004 : 14:57:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
Remember all, always enter a tome with an open mind....not with a view to build critisism.
Very well said.  |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Simon Says
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2004 : 18:37:59
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<bows down>
Alaundo speaks, and I, of course, listen. (Crust speaks, and I, of course, cringe)
;)
One of my reasons for starting this topic---and the critique topics that follow---is because of the closure of the WotC novels board, and their moratorium on novel critiques.
I voiced my protest, and was promptly led to THIS forum by one of the authors. I assume Candlekeep is a bit more open-minded, with learning and knowledge taking precedence over lines in the sand and without the omnipresent looming of governing bodies or corporate entities.
But I understand the need for decorum. My aim is for open and reasoned debate. Again: I ask that FR haters and trolls not participate.
If a critic is concerned about impartiality, here is an exercise I sometimes like to apply: the three-and-three. Take the three things you liked most about the book, and the three things you liked least. Discuss them. Your overall like or dislike for the book will be evident without resorting to grades, thumbs, etc.
In a recent BLOG critique for Mr. Greenwood's "Cormyr: A Novel", I was hard-pressed to come up with three things I didn't like. Finally, I threw up my hands and said, "Not enough death! There coulds have been more death!" ... to which nearly everyone else disagreed. But it garnered discussion and, in the end, sold four more copies of that most worthy book. :)
Thank you for your concern. Not that you need my permission (because you don't), but feel free to yank anything you feel crosses the line of civility. |
And the trees were all kept equal - by hatchet, axe, and saw. --Peart |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2004 : 18:48:25
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Well you seem decent enough Simon 
Still, refering to what Alaundo said and your response.... if there arent three bad points about a novel, then why try to find them just to weigh against the positive three points?! If a novel is good then thats that 
There are a lot of FR authors here at Candlekeep, some have been here quite some time, id hate to think their haven here away from the unpleasant atmosphere encountered at the WotC forum is threatened. Im sure Alaundo and the other scribes wont let it get that way.....weve stood together before, and im sure we will again if the need arises
By the way, The Sapphire Cresent is one of my favorite FR novels, so tread carefully!  |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Edited by - Lord Rad on 05 Feb 2004 18:48:52 |
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Simon Says
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2004 : 23:38:34
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Thanks, Rad.
I wouldn't say "find three BAD points". You could go as far as to say, "Find three points I did not love."
Admittedly, part of this exercise is to aid the people who naturally bash, forcing them, at least, to add something constructive amidst the "Drizzt is a crybaby" posts.
But my intent is not to bash! PLEASE understand this! This is one of the best forums around---I can tell just from my few days here---where authors take part in discussions and get feedback. In a nutshell, I merely want to be able to discuss the things I like so that I may see MORE of the things I like. The same goes for things I don't like. There is very little right or wrong; most is mere opinion.
Authors can take part and participate, or not. They can listen and use the desires of their core audience as a springboard to future writings, or not. It's up to them!
I'm not even saying I'm the core audience. There's a good possibility many of my views are the minority view. But isn't that, in and of itself, a useful tool?
Civil conversation never hurt anyone, nor did advice. And if a multitude of readers are of the same opinion, I think the authors would want to know. In my view, this is what could turn a "middling second tier" author into a N.Y. Times Bestseller.
"Know your audience." |
And the trees were all kept equal - by hatchet, axe, and saw. --Peart |
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Kameron M. Franklin
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2004 : 00:29:52
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| Most "serious" authors seek honest and constructive feedback from readers. That's why they attend workshops or join critique circles or host forums. I'll definitely have my ears open when Maiden comes out. |
"You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2004 : 01:30:59
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I'm just excited about the great novels coming out over the next year. I'm amazed at how many new series are starting. What a great thing to look forward to.
(By the way, why cringe when I speak?) |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Simon Says
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2004 : 18:27:46
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Kameron: I'm really looking forward to "Maiden of Pain". As the winner of the open search, you had to beat out a boatload of competition---even beat out one of my friends, and *he* says he's going to be first in line to get that book (he'll have to knock me out of line first).
It's the same reason I'm looking forward to the Eberron campaign setting. Both Kameron Franklin and Keith Baker climbed to the top of the creative mountain and were judged by fellow gamers and creators alike as being the best. Even if a few of 'em might be wrong ... I don't think it's possible that all of them were. So I think we're in for a treat. (Is it too late to beg Kameron to throw some descriptive ambiance into his character introductions? I'm curious how a *new* writer feels about this subject; if he goes for the "less is more" theory or what.)
Crust: I cringe because you frighten me. You and The Artist Formerly Known As Darkmistress. If I saw either of you in a dark alley I would sprint in the opposite direction. |
And the trees were all kept equal - by hatchet, axe, and saw. --Peart |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2004 : 18:49:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Simon Says
Crust: I cringe because you frighten me. You and The Artist Formerly Known As Darkmistress. If I saw either of you in a dark alley I would sprint in the opposite direction.
This is shocking.  |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Kameron M. Franklin
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2004 : 02:08:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Simon Says
Kameron: I'm really looking forward to "Maiden of Pain". As the winner of the open search, you had to beat out a boatload of competition---even beat out one of my friends, and *he* says he's going to be first in line to get that book (he'll have to knock me out of line first).
Yeah, ain't that a monkey on my back. Imagine the pressure of having 499 other people dying to get their hands on the book just to say "They picked this over me!"
quote:
(Is it too late to beg Kameron to throw some descriptive ambiance into his character introductions? I'm curious how a *new* writer feels about this subject; if he goes for the "less is more" theory or what.)
My view on description, characters in particular? I tend to follow the rule of describing them at introduction, though in Maiden, I do introduce one supporting character in the prologue, but don't provide a visual description until the first chapter. This was with the intention that the reader could more readily put themselves in the character's shoes during the particular scene (whereas, by creating a mental image of how the character looks, they then assign the experience to the image and are more detached).
The level of a character's importance to the story also dictates how much description they get. My descriptions tend to emphasize features or characteristics that I feel are important to the character and the pov I'm using. I don't go for flowery or over-poetic phrases; strong nouns and verbs are preferred over adjectives and adverbs. |
"You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2004 : 10:04:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Kameron M. Franklin
Yeah, ain't that a monkey on my back. Imagine the pressure of having 499 other people dying to get their hands on the book just to say "They picked this over me!"
Thats exactly the way i would feel too! Im sure it must be quite stressful to be chosen like this and feel the need to write something that everyone is so anxious about. I wouldnt worry to much about it tough Kameron, after all, there have been a few negative reviews of novels against some of the most fantastic authors..... you cant please everyone all of the time |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Lina
Senior Scribe
Australia
469 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2004 : 10:37:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Rad
quote:
Originally posted by Kameron M. Franklin
Yeah, ain't that a monkey on my back. Imagine the pressure of having 499 other people dying to get their hands on the book just to say "They picked this over me!"
Thats exactly the way i would feel too! Im sure it must be quite stressful to be chosen like this and feel the need to write something that everyone is so anxious about. I wouldnt worry to much about it tough Kameron, after all, there have been a few negative reviews of novels against some of the most fantastic authors..... you cant please everyone all of the time
Too true Rad. About that bit about pleasing everyone all the time... I'm sure with a little sip from a potion of amnesia and a whack with the wand of control, they'd be dancing to your tune 24-7. |
“Darkness beyond twilight, crimson beyond blood that flows! Buried in the flow of time. In thy great name. I pledge myself to darkness. All the fools who stand in our way shall be destroyed…by the power you and I possess! DRAGON SLAVE!!!â€
"Thieves? Ah, such an ugly word... look upon them as the most honest sort of merchant."
-Oglar the Thieflord |
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Kameron M. Franklin
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2004 : 17:20:42
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Oh, I don't have any preconceptions about pleasing everyone. And my own perfectionism provides more stress and drive than worry over what my co-contestants will think.  |
"You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2004 : 17:26:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Crust
quote:
Originally posted by Simon Says
Crust: I cringe because you frighten me. You and The Artist Formerly Known As Darkmistress. If I saw either of you in a dark alley I would sprint in the opposite direction.
This is shocking.
 Other people still love you Crust. Give me a few days and I'm sure I'll be able to find some. |
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BobSalvatore
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2004 : 19:59:54
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Most "serious" authors seek honest and constructive feedback from readers. That's why they attend workshops or join critique circles or host forums.
I beg to differ, Kameron. (Well, first off, congratulations on scoring the MoP book.) Most "serious" authors will soon realize that feedback is too scattered to be of much use. Perhaps in the early stages of a career...
I've gotten the best and worst reviews on the same book - and hthe opinions were diametrically opposed.
In the end, most authors learn to just go with their instincts, I think. You write the book the best way you can and then hope and pray that enough people read it and enjoy it so that they'll pay you to write another one. That doesn't mean you don't get a feel for general perceptions of a particular book; it just means that you come to recognize clearly that writing is not and cannot be an interactive group effort.
Bob Salvatore
Edited for FAT FINGERS! |
Edited by - BobSalvatore on 07 Feb 2004 20:12:33 |
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Kameron M. Franklin
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2004 : 20:19:01
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quote:
Originally posted by BobSalvatore:
I beg to differ, Kameron. (Well, first off, congratulations on scoring the MoP book. Most "serious" authors will soon realize that feedback is too scattered to be of much use. Perhaps in the early stages of a career...
I've gotten the best and worst reviews on the same book - and hte opinions were deiametrically opposed.
In the end, most authors learn to just go with their instincts, I think. You write the book the best way you can and then hope and pray that enough people read it and enjoy it so that they'll pay you to write another one. That doesn't mean you don't get a feel for general perceptions of a particular book; it just means that you come to recognize clearly that writing is not and cannot be an interactive group effort.
Bob Salvatore
Thank you. 
I've heard the same from others, and since I am just starting my career, I guess I still reflect on how helpful some of the workshops I attended were. Sure, I got "scattered" feedback even then, and ended up picking and choosing based on my judgment of the writing ability of those who offered critiques (i.e., if I didn't think they could write, based on their samples I read, I gave their opinions less weight) or how many people shared the same view.
And I agree, in the end, writing is a solo act. But, like any form of entertainment, if you ignore the fans, you lose your audience. There has to be some acknowledgement of critical feedback (and by critical, I don't mean just negative), right? Otherwise, why do you host forums on rasalvatore.com? Sure, it fosters a sense of community between your readership, but doesn't it also let you keep tabs on the pulse of your audience? |
"You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride |
Edited by - Kameron M. Franklin on 07 Feb 2004 20:20:14 |
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BobSalvatore
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2004 : 21:01:29
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I host the forums at rasalvatore.com, and I ignore the threads except the interactive thread, which is more Q&A than anything.
I don't even look at other threads, unless it's one that demands my attention as board overseer.
But, like any form of entertainment, if you ignore the fans, you lose your audience.
I disagree, if you're implying that readers should serve the role of editors. Your "voice" will get you some readers and cost you others. Obviously you're not ignoring the readers, but neither are you catering to the viewpoints of a few just because they happen to be louder than others. I write what I write. I don't write my books for people who don't like them; I write my books for people who do. I don't let my plot points be determined by polls or feedback - if I did, Wulfgar would have stayed dead....wait, he would've come back!....wait, nope, he's dead....aha! resurrection....oops, nope, sorry, the balance tilted the other way and he's dead.
Now, in a more general sense, of course feedback can let an author know what's working and what's not (I'm doing the Entreri-Jarlaxle series next because the readers let me know that these two work for them; I won't do another Spine of the World anytime soon because too many readers were turned off by it), but it's a VERY general sense.
I know that some readers may be put off by this attitude, but hey, I'm being honest here. Please understand that it's got nothing to do with respecting opinions or lack thereof. It's simply a matter of emotional survival. It's simply a matter of an author listening to what's inside more than what's outside.
There has to be some acknowledgement of critical feedback (and by critical, I don't mean just negative), right?
Acknowledgement? Sure. "Thank you," or "f*** you" suffices, I think, followed by an appropriate flushing sound in either case.
Writing is a rolling wave of emotion. Is it any wonder we're all manic/depressive? My advice to all writers, beginning or not,is to keep your feet on the ground in the face of good reviews, keep your head above ground in the case of bad ones, go with your instincts, find your inner voice and pray a lot. Yep, that's what it is to be a writer.
Bob |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2004 : 21:40:57
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| For what it's worth, I agree one hundred percent with Bob. |
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Kameron M. Franklin
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2004 : 22:25:55
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I do, too, and I appreciate having veteran authors who share their experience with us newbs.
As the wise Mr. Spock once said, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one." A loud minority should have no effect on a writer's decisions. And, ultimately, writers write what they like, and just hope and pray enough others will like it too. |
"You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride |
Edited by - Kameron M. Franklin on 07 Feb 2004 22:26:44 |
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Simon Says
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2004 : 04:13:24
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Does anyone else feel they are privy to an extremely cool conversation between a newly-minted Novice Scribe and---The Master?
Gleeful = me. All these authors! The only person missing is Mrs. Cunningham. We get her---our collection is complete! (Can I trade a rookie Ernie Banks and two Cal Ripken Jr's for a mint condition Elaine Cunningham?)
Must be why I love Candlekeep. Well, that and Alaundo is one sexy beast.
Of course I am not a professional writer, but I tend to come out on the "Vocal responses are better" side of the argument. I'm extremely susceptible to the views of others when it comes to recommended books, assuming those views aren't of the "It sux!" variety. But get some lucid discussion going ... there's nothing better.
An interesting side note regarding the critique I did for "The Sapphire Crescent": I was contacted by two authors. One agreed with the majority of my comments regarding Mr. Reid's book---the other vehemently disagreed! And both were mostly commenting on my views regarding introductive description.
So ... well, I guess this is a question for the pros, but ... do any authors have a "window of opportunity" in their books for introductory description? For instance, is it appropriate to mention someone's height twenty pages after he/she is introduced? What if that mention has nothing at all to do with the current situation, say, calling a man "The tall warrior" without having him forced to duck under a doorway? And how many subscribe to the "less is more" theory?
This more-than-novice scribe wonders such things!
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And the trees were all kept equal - by hatchet, axe, and saw. --Peart |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2004 : 10:23:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Simon Says
Must be why I love Candlekeep. Well, that and Alaundo is one sexy beast.
Well met
Erm....why....thank ye Sim........  SECURITYYYYYYYY
'tis indeed an honor to have such great novel scribes here within the library. I thank ye all for sharing your views with us and hope your find your stay here a pleasant one  |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Edited by - Alaundo on 08 Feb 2004 10:24:14 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2004 : 17:37:46
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Simon S., generally speaking, I try to describe characters as they are introduced. You want the reader to be able to picture the guy the moment he becomes a presence in the story. You don't want the reader to start visualizing a character a certain way, then have the jarring experience of being told, farther along in the story, that his mental picture is wrong.
I don't know that I necessarily take the "less-is-more" style of writing as far as it can be taken (Roger Zelazny is an author who did that brilliantly) but I'm definitely of the opinion that you can't describe every character or setting in minute detail without slowing the story to a crawl. The writer's task, then, is to include the right details, suggestive, distinctive ones that sort of trick the reader into thinking that you've described everything, but actually stimulate him into vividly imagining the scene for himself. |
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Ius
Seeker
Sweden
63 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2004 : 23:02:58
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quote:
Originally posted by BobSalvatore
I host the forums at rasalvatore.com, and I ignore the threads except the interactive thread, which is more Q&A than anything.
I don't even look at other threads, unless it's one that demands my attention as board overseer.
But, like any form of entertainment, if you ignore the fans, you lose your audience.
I disagree, if you're implying that readers should serve the role of editors. Your "voice" will get you some readers and cost you others. Obviously you're not ignoring the readers, but neither are you catering to the viewpoints of a few just because they happen to be louder than others. I write what I write. I don't write my books for people who don't like them; I write my books for people who do. I don't let my plot points be determined by polls or feedback - if I did, Wulfgar would have stayed dead....wait, he would've come back!....wait, nope, he's dead....aha! resurrection....oops, nope, sorry, the balance tilted the other way and he's dead.
Now, in a more general sense, of course feedback can let an author know what's working and what's not (I'm doing the Entreri-Jarlaxle series next because the readers let me know that these two work for them; I won't do another Spine of the World anytime soon because too many readers were turned off by it), but it's a VERY general sense.
I know that some readers may be put off by this attitude, but hey, I'm being honest here. Please understand that it's got nothing to do with respecting opinions or lack thereof. It's simply a matter of emotional survival. It's simply a matter of an author listening to what's inside more than what's outside.
There has to be some acknowledgement of critical feedback (and by critical, I don't mean just negative), right?
Acknowledgement? Sure. "Thank you," or "f*** you" suffices, I think, followed by an appropriate flushing sound in either case.
Writing is a rolling wave of emotion. Is it any wonder we're all manic/depressive? My advice to all writers, beginning or not,is to keep your feet on the ground in the face of good reviews, keep your head above ground in the case of bad ones, go with your instincts, find your inner voice and pray a lot. Yep, that's what it is to be a writer.
Bob
True enough! Writing is emotional and, at the best of times, reading is too. I can see how the viewpoints of the readers can seem unimportant, but, as I see it, litterature is about communication; The author tell a story, the reader reacts, that is the basics of communication. If an author cares nothing for the opinions of his readers, why write a book? Of course not all writers creates for the readers, some writers write for bread, so to speak, others perhaps to formulate their own thoughts, and in a way, communicate with themselves.
Forums like this one I think is mostly for the readers to interact with other readers, to share their emotional (good or bad) experience, and perhaps get something from that communication.
An authors contribution to such forums could be positive if he has a genuine intrest in what his readers think and who they are.
If not their involvment just tend to distort the purpose of the forum and create endless threads of praise/hate responses, instead of enriching the discussion. Take this topic as an example; how many reviews has been posted since the start of the topic? The main subject has instead been about the relevance of having such a topic and whether or not authors who cares/not cares about their readers reaction should view them.
I will hereby try to break this trend by listing three things I like/not love with "A Thousand Orcs".
Likes:
-Involves the Companions of the Hall in a more epic setting, I liked "Siege of Darkness" for the same reasons.
-The feeling in the book reminds me a bit about the first trilogy, wich was a pleasant reading experience (don´t get me wrong, I like all the books).
-Further developes the interaction that the COTH has with the rest of the Realms.
Likes less:
-Drizzt is developing omnipotence, both in the field of swordplay and moral high-ground. Where is the humility and insight? For a good example check out "Musashi".
-Violence: I like violence just as much as the next guy, perhaps more, but while I can see the fun in an evil character disposing his opponents whitout abandon, it feels strange when "good guys" kill seemingly without afterthought, or worse with glee.
-Does not feature Entreri (I know... A separate trilogy is coming, but still he is my favorite).
Ius
(please forgive any laguage errors) |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2004 : 00:40:02
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Ius, I won't presume to speak for Bob, who certainly doesn't need me to do that. But I will say that when I said I agree with his point of view, I wasn't suggesting that readers shouldn't critique novels, or read and react to such reviews. If you find the activity to be enjoyable or worthwhile, by all means, have at it.
What I was endorsing was the idea that the fan who thinks it's desirable to post such critiques BECAUSE the author will learn from it and become a better writer has unrealistic expections. That just isn't how it usually works.
That's true for a lot of reasons. One is that the guy who writes the critique is only one person, whose opinion is subjective. I can virtually guarantee you, whatever he says he didn't like in a particular story, some other reader has told the author that he found that aspect of the tale particularly pleasing. If you read the topic, you already saw this principle demonstrated in the discussion of Thomas Reid's book. What, then, is the author to make of these contradictory opinions?
Also, you guys can only critique work already published. It's too late for the author to change that stuff, and although this may sound counterintuitive, it's entirely likely that your criticisms, even if valid, have no particular relevance to whatever project the author is currently knocking out. Every story presents its own particular problems that the writer must strive to solve as best he can.
Thus, I think Bob is right. Critiques may indeed serve a purpose, but that purpose is not to make the authors better writers. If only it were that easy! But we have to work hard to improve our craft, and more or less haul ourselves up by our own bootstraps. |
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Daron
Acolyte
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2004 : 07:57:20
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quote:
I don't know that I necessarily take the "less-is-more" style of writing as far as it can be taken (Roger Zelazny is an author who did that brilliantly) but I'm definitely of the opinion that you can't describe every character or setting in minute detail without slowing the story to a crawl. The writer's task, then, is to include the right details, suggestive, distinctive ones that sort of trick the reader into thinking that you've described everything, but actually stimulate him into vividly imagining the scene for himself.
Ye gods! I am so glad to hear an author say this. Too often of late many fantasy authors deem it neccessary to fill their books with page after page of trivial nonsense and useless descriptions. There is a particular author, (whose name I will not utter, but here is a clue, he is one of the, if not the top selling non-Relms fantasy author) who will go on an on about what a charater is wearing for nearly an entire page or 2, and then do so AGAIN the next chapter. This is also true of descriptions of towns and other locales.
This infuriates me to no end. As a result of multiple re-tellings of all these things I have approxamately zero idea what these characters or locales look like since I have so many descriptions in my head.
One of the things I love about the majority of the Realms authors is that they get straight to the point and tell a story. The first Realms novel I ever read was Homeland. I started reading expecting the worst. What I got was a pleasant suprise. I was told a good many details about Menzoberranzan...... once. This made me infinately happy. Why? It left a LOT more room for the real purpose of the book, to tell a story about a family of characters (and of course the main one). For that I would dearly like to thank Mr. Salvatore (a rarity from most readers it seems nowadays) for doing this, otherwise I likely would have put that book down and never even considered jorneying deeper intot the Relms.
I think this is one of the many reason shared world novels get such a bum rap from many other fantasy readers. They are so used to getting long and drawn out descriptions of the world that many seem to miss the sublte beauty that is telling a story. Too many authors nowadays are so hell-bent on world building and trying to be the next Tolkein that they neglect the actual story. Thankfully, the Realms have been pre-built, this at least gives the authors a chance to focus on what really matters.
Well bloody hell.. I do seem to have rambled on a bit there haven't I? Sorry 'bout that.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2004 : 08:08:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Daron
[...]I would dearly like to thank Mr. Salvatore (a rarity from most readers it seems nowadays) [..]
You're presuming.  Don't. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2004 : 10:39:02
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Bookwyrm is right. Presuming general reader attitudes on particular authors is dangerous. I've never had a problem with Mr Salvatore's work, and practically everyone I know hasn't either.
Assumptions are a no-no...
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Ius
Seeker
Sweden
63 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2004 : 11:11:35
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I agree with the sentiment that authors can not learn to be better writers by tapping in to the feelings presented in a forum. However if the writer still has an intrest in his readers opinions his presence at the forum can be very rewarding. I think a good example of such a forum is M. Moorcocks "Nomads of the Timestream".
As an example Moorcock answered a question I had about what I percieved as an inconsistency in one of his novels, instead of being upset about the critizism he explained the motives and thoughts behind the particular passage. I do not think that M found the interaction particulary rewarding, but for me as a reader it enhanced the reading experience, and of course made me respect this man even more than I did before.
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Ius
Seeker
Sweden
63 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2004 : 11:51:24
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By the way, I think that the "Dissolution" book was the best fantasy read in a long time. Since I live in Sweden it takes up to six months extra before we get our hands on books published in the US, so I have not read the sequels, I just hope they are as good as the first book.
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2004 : 11:59:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ius
By the way, I think that the "Dissolution" book was the best fantasy read in a long time. Since I live in Sweden it takes up to six months extra before we get our hands on books published in the US, so I have not read the sequels, I just hope they are as good as the first book.
You wont have any worries there Ius! Insurrection and Condemnation are just as amazing as Dissolution!!  Im about to start reading Extinction too in about 30 minutes ::drool:: |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Edited by - Lord Rad on 09 Feb 2004 12:00:13 |
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Forgotten Realms Novels - Critiques
