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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Oct 2013 : 06:14:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane (snip) Neither Faiths and Avatars, nor Power and Pantheons, nor Faiths and Pantheons lists Asmodeus among the deities. These three source books are the ones dealing with the deities in the realms and list them off.
Please give us your "source" where you got that claim from.
And these are not exhaustive so I will point you to...
quote:
Originally posted by MirtekWell, all archfiends had been considered lesser deities in 1e and Ed even once wrote that he placed Bane in Acheron to avoid him coming into conflict with the cadre of lesser deities that are the LotN. But that's already all there is about Asmodeus being a deity (well, yeah, Guide to Hell, but that clashes with canon in so many areas and is thus best left out).
... for the answer.
Asmodeus has been part of the Realms - although never overtly AFAIK but simply by virtue of the fact that the Realms has never had its own version of the Hells (again, Ed wrote the definitive 1E treatment so clearly he saw the "core" Hells as being he same as the FR version of the Hells) - and has been defined as a lesser deity since late 1E hence my assertion.
Anyway, just think how little outrage would be confected if those who wrote the marketing blurb actually spoke to the game designers before doing so.... ;) |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2013 : 09:40:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I wounldn't mind having Kiaransalee reintroduced. The question is, if Shar is forced to take a leave of absence, who will take care of the Shadow Weave? Mask? Mystra? And if, indeed, Kiaransalee (who is lawful evil) returns, will she share the portfolio of Death with Kelemvor (who is neutral)?
I thought the Shadow weave died when the weave did and did not exist anymore. At least that was the impression I got from all the books.
Broken, but it still exists, so does the Weave.
If you recall, when Szass Tam viewed both weaves using his world-window spell, he saw such sources of magic were in tatters, and he concluded that he could still use them provided he knew some shortcuts (or something like it)--that's why he bargained with Bane.
I suppose that over time, Shar manages to repair it. Or perhaps it repairs itself. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 09 Oct 2013 09:41:19 |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2013 : 09:56:55
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I've always thought of the tangible bits of the Spellplague - the spellscars, the plaguelands, plaguechanged creatures etc... - as being the ruins or remains of the Weave and that, in theory, it could be reconstituted or re-woven.
(On a related note, I had planned at one point to use the Demon Weave idea and have great spider-like constructs knitting, as it were, the Demon Weave like a giant web and using such things as plaguechanged creatures as raw materials. Unfortunately, I couldn't come up with the sort of imagery that wouldn't make it look a bit silly so I dropped the idea.) |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2013 : 10:08:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul
Asmodeus has been part of the Realms - although never overtly AFAIK but simply by virtue of the fact that the Realms has never had its own version of the Hells (again, Ed wrote the definitive 1E treatment so clearly he saw the "core" Hells as being he same as the FR version of the Hells) - and has been defined as a lesser deity since late 1E hence my assertion.
You hide behind "not exhaustive". If we go that route, sure, i question the status of Asmodeus as "lord of the hells" then as we are never given any word that he has no master above him, it´s not exhaustive. I question the divinity of the deities, maybe they are just imposters and all just happen to be very powerful mages from an outside realm, not exhaustive. I can dissect every piece of canon lore that way. You don´t convince me with that.
Asmodeus was never portrayed as a lesser divine being in the realms prior to 4e. If he had such a sway, then why was he left out in 2nd and 3rd Edition? They didn´t took him as a deity. He reigns in the hells and that is his domain, NOT the realms.
I stand by my point on Asmodeus and i stand by my point on "stupidity" regarding pushing other entities into the realms.
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The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2013 : 12:55:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul
I've always thought of the tangible bits of the Spellplague - the spellscars, the plaguelands, plaguechanged creatures etc... - as being the ruins or remains of the Weave and that, in theory, it could be reconstituted or re-woven.
(On a related note, I had planned at one point to use the Demon Weave idea and have great spider-like constructs knitting, as it were, the Demon Weave like a giant web and using such things as plaguechanged creatures as raw materials. Unfortunately, I couldn't come up with the sort of imagery that wouldn't make it look a bit silly so I dropped the idea.)
I personally find the idea of a Demon Weave redundant. Sammaster once tapped negative energies from other planes (to fuel the Dracorage mythal) without aid of a Demon Weave or similar magical conduits. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2013 : 16:49:29
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Weaves are like Chosen - every author has to have their own.
Drizzt, for example, taps into the power of the 'Angst Weave', which is fueled by the unfairness of the universe.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 02:46:51
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Folks, I think we all need to take a step or three back and appreciate the unique perspectives many of us have on the concept of a "Goddess of Death" for the Realms.
We're not here to aggressively criticise any personal views scribes may have on the topic. It's simply a discussion about the possibilities of such based on a blurb taken [most likely] out of the greater context of a plot.
Let's refrain from criticising the individual insights of particular scribes, and focus more, instead, on just the Realms, eh?
Thank you.  |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2013 : 06:15:28
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| I agree with The Sage on this (and would also like to apologize for my earlier post; I wasn't thinking about the feelings of my fellow scribes when I wrote it). |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 03:03:43
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| Kiranselee is sort of a goddess of death for the drow, just as Sehanine is [i]sort of[i] a goddess of death for the elves. But as for "the god(dess)" of death, I'd personally like to stick with Kelemvor. I'm tired of deities stealing each other's portfolio. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4213 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 03:21:05
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Kelemvor is still a were-panther mercenary in my Forgotten Realms...and Cyric a mercenary from Zhentil Keep.
As for a God of Death...Myrkul was perfect and I hope they place him back where he was. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 12:47:25
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I'm tired of deities stealing each other's portfolio.
That is precisely what evil deities do. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4466 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 16:11:25
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In my Realms The Raven Queen is a god pretty new to the Realms, only appearing a few years after the Spellplague. In her home cosmos the people of the world were consumed with the power of necromancy and were swallowed up by it, thus turning the planet into a picture of the "Walking Dead". With the last of her dying power she was able to escape destruction (due to having zero worshippers) and flung herself across the greater cosmos. There, she felt the raw power of Abeir-Toril and the strange flux that resonated with two worlds that had emerged into one. Curiosity got the better of her and she came closer to the plane, but her tapped out power couldn't hold her aloft in the Æther and she fell. She attempted to carve out a small but secluded place in the Shadowfell (aka, Plane of Shadow) but there was Shar and soon she was battling again for her life. For a short time she rose up Revenant on Toril to attack Shar holdouts in a weak attempt to decresae Shar's power but Shar is FAR too powerful for that. Slowly the Raven Queen was dying and all seemed lost.
Intrigued by the strange power struggle going on in the Shadowfell, Kelemvore decided to explore the reasons for this disturbances. He was shocked to find another foreign deity fighting back the darkness that was Shar. Seeing as how this fallen "Queen" had so despretely attacked Shar's forces, he felt obligated to aid her. With his help he was able to pull the Raven Queen from Shar's clutches (and thus, wrench away power Shar would've gained by consuming the Raven Queen's essence). Because of this bold rescue the Raven Queen has taken her place as Kelemvore's consort. They have a very strange Yin/Yang relationship because the Raven Queen is fine using Undead to fullfill her needs where Kelemvore doesn't like Undead at all. But this difference of opinion is tempered with their desire to see ALL undead wiped from the world and natural order restored.
So anyways, since this scroll was dedicated to the Goddess of Death, I figured I'd share with you guys how I incorporated her into my Realms. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 17:07:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I'm tired of deities stealing each other's portfolio.
That is precisely what evil deities do.
They take each other's I-phones too... and then post those embarrassing pics on the web...
They should know better then leave those lying around; happens every time to celebrities.
"Identity Theft... not just for Immortals anymore!" |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Oct 2013 17:10:26 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 17:42:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
In my Realms The Raven Queen is a god pretty new to the Realms, only appearing a few years after the Spellplague. In her home cosmos the people of the world were consumed with the power of necromancy and were swallowed up by it, thus turning the planet into a picture of the "Walking Dead". With the last of her dying power she was able to escape destruction (due to having zero worshippers) and flung herself across the greater cosmos. There, she felt the raw power of Abeir-Toril and the strange flux that resonated with two worlds that had emerged into one. Curiosity got the better of her and she came closer to the plane, but her tapped out power couldn't hold her aloft in the Æther and she fell. She attempted to carve out a small but secluded place in the Shadowfell (aka, Plane of Shadow) but there was Shar and soon she was battling again for her life. For a short time she rose up Revenant on Toril to attack Shar holdouts in a weak attempt to decresae Shar's power but Shar is FAR too powerful for that. Slowly the Raven Queen was dying and all seemed lost.
Intrigued by the strange power struggle going on in the Shadowfell, Kelemvore decided to explore the reasons for this disturbances. He was shocked to find another foreign deity fighting back the darkness that was Shar. Seeing as how this fallen "Queen" had so despretely attacked Shar's forces, he felt obligated to aid her. With his help he was able to pull the Raven Queen from Shar's clutches (and thus, wrench away power Shar would've gained by consuming the Raven Queen's essence). Because of this bold rescue the Raven Queen has taken her place as Kelemvore's consort. They have a very strange Yin/Yang relationship because the Raven Queen is fine using Undead to fullfill her needs where Kelemvore doesn't like Undead at all. But this difference of opinion is tempered with their desire to see ALL undead wiped from the world and natural order restored.
So anyways, since this scroll was dedicated to the Goddess of Death, I figured I'd share with you guys how I incorporated her into my Realms.
Sounds good to me.
In fact, any plausible way to weaken Shar is fine with me.
Admittedly, though, the Raven Queen (or the concept of her) is someone (something) whom (which) I have yet to learn to "like." |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 18:46:56
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| My guess is also Kiaransalee - it fits the 5E Realms theme of bringing back dead deities, and she was important in 3E's popular City of the Spider Queen. And mind you, the blurb rather indicates that she will fail in getting the portfolio of death. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12080 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 18:54:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I wounldn't mind having Kiaransalee reintroduced. The question is, if Shar is forced to take a leave of absence, who will take care of the Shadow Weave? Mask? Mystra? And if, indeed, Kiaransalee (who is lawful evil) returns, will she share the portfolio of Death with Kelemvor (who is neutral)?
Not sure if your post here was inspired by Mirtek's (just above yours), but I was thinking the same thing: Kiaransalee as the Raven Queen! 
Both are death deities, and both had major run-ins with Orcus. Also, we don't really know what she looked like before (her rise to power), but lets face it, drow are always drawn 'stunningly beautiful' (and although one might claim that is an 'artistic thing', its a fact that drow practice euthanasia on 'unfit' children... which would include anything they considered "less then perfect". Drow are unearthly-beautiful not only because they were elves, but because they stranggle all the ugly babies and weed-out those bad genes).
My point being, the stuff about the Raven Queen being so exceptional (in appearance and I am sure in other... areas..) really shoe-horns well with her being a dark Elf - they have raised 'perfectionism' to an unholy art-form. Also, Khiaransalee was a Dark Elf, but we really don't know if she was truly Drow - we know almost nothing about her homeworld (which could have been filled with non-Ilithiir Dark Elves, for all we know).
I think I would really like Khiaransalee to come back as the Raven Queen come 5e - we get her return, and we don't mess-up Shar (any more then she already is LOL). The Elves need a deity of death, and she's a great fit, IMHO.
That's an interesting idea. Everyone forgot her name.... so she takes on a moniker of "the Raven queen". I only know the basics of the raven queen in 4e lore though. So, she faced off against Orcus? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1882 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2013 : 19:00:52
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quote:
In my Realms The Raven Queen is a god pretty new to the Realms, only appearing a few years after the Spellplague. In her home cosmos the people of the world were consumed with the power of necromancy and were swallowed up by it, thus turning the planet into a picture of the "Walking Dead". With the last of her dying power she was able to escape destruction (due to having zero worshippers) and flung herself across the greater cosmos. There, she felt the raw power of Abeir-Toril and the strange flux that resonated with two worlds that had emerged into one. Curiosity got the better of her and she came closer to the plane, but her tapped out power couldn't hold her aloft in the Æther and she fell. She attempted to carve out a small but secluded place in the Shadowfell (aka, Plane of Shadow) but there was Shar and soon she was battling again for her life. For a short time she rose up Revenant on Toril to attack Shar holdouts in a weak attempt to decresae Shar's power but Shar is FAR too powerful for that. Slowly the Raven Queen was dying and all seemed lost.
Intrigued by the strange power struggle going on in the Shadowfell, Kelemvore decided to explore the reasons for this disturbances. He was shocked to find another foreign deity fighting back the darkness that was Shar. Seeing as how this fallen "Queen" had so despretely attacked Shar's forces, he felt obligated to aid her. With his help he was able to pull the Raven Queen from Shar's clutches (and thus, wrench away power Shar would've gained by consuming the Raven Queen's essence). Because of this bold rescue the Raven Queen has taken her place as Kelemvore's consort. They have a very strange Yin/Yang relationship because the Raven Queen is fine using Undead to fullfill her needs where Kelemvore doesn't like Undead at all. But this difference of opinion is tempered with their desire to see ALL undead wiped from the world and natural order restored.
Consider this slightly modified and stolen. I like adding deities to my homebrew. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 03:40:57
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To whomever brought up the notion of Kiaransalee as a general goddess of death in the Realms... good stuff. Good stuff indeed!
That's got the old sagely cogitators working speculatively. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4213 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 03:54:12
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| I really REALLY like the idea of a "forgotten" god using another identity to bring itself back to power...I like it more than passingly well! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 07:16:11
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I agree with Dalor Darden on this. I had thought of another possible goddess*, but I think the 'forgotten deity returning using another identity' idea is even better than my own idea.
*I had an idea that it might be Talona, since disease and poison do cause an awful lot of deaths in the Realms. (I'll apologize for this suggestion now, just in case it causes another argument. Sorry, one and all.)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 14:06:09
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Yeah, I wasn't the first to mention her, but I am really loving her coming back as the Raven Queen - its fits everything so perfectly (including the fact FR folks forgot her name! Great stuff there!)
In my homebrew, I have Pharasma as Kelemvor's consort, but I may swap that out for this - I like it much better. He can remain as 'judge of the dead', and she can just be in charge of them after judgement (so like the 'governor of hell' kind of thing). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2013 : 14:20:02
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Thinking on this further... I'm starting to wonder, now, whether a sliver of Kiaransalee's time as "Lady of the Dead" may have actually survived beyond Orcus's reclamation of his position of power.
Maybe this sliver couldn't exist wholly on it's own... and eventually either had to merge with some pre-existing divine-energy dispersed into the Astral after multiple god-deaths in the Realms during the Spellplague, or finds some purchase [and is thus "promoted"] among the divine pantheon when Ao reconfigures the Celestial Pantheon during the Sundering.
So armed with a new name, new position, and new portfolio, this sliver could be the basis for the so-called "rise of the goddess of Death." |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 12 Oct 2013 14:20:36 |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2013 : 04:20:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Possible. Though I have a . . . feeling it's going to be Shar--again. Perhaps it won't be that bad. Perhaps it may even be necessary. I mean, she's the one who started the Spellplague, so it may stand to reason she's the one to take a sorry fall when 4E closes and 5E starts.
Maybe in her arrogance to try to steal the portfolio of Death from Kelemvor, she nconsiderably that she'd be forced to lie low for a hundred years or so?
That'd be nice, but the Black Chronology that they revealed at the end of the 3E era specifically referred to a coming weakness of Shar's -- and that certainly didn't happen. I recall that one quite specifically, because I theorized then that we were going to see Shar take a hit.
She lost her shadow weave |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2013 : 05:09:46
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Possible. Though I have a . . . feeling it's going to be Shar--again. Perhaps it won't be that bad. Perhaps it may even be necessary. I mean, she's the one who started the Spellplague, so it may stand to reason she's the one to take a sorry fall when 4E closes and 5E starts.
Maybe in her arrogance to try to steal the portfolio of Death from Kelemvor, she nconsiderably that she'd be forced to lie low for a hundred years or so?
That'd be nice, but the Black Chronology that they revealed at the end of the 3E era specifically referred to a coming weakness of Shar's -- and that certainly didn't happen. I recall that one quite specifically, because I theorized then that we were going to see Shar take a hit.
She lost her shadow weave
Yeah, but there was no indication that this weakened her in any way. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12080 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2013 : 14:31:47
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Since I knew next to nothing of the Raven Queen, but I was intrigued by the notion that somehow this was Kiaransalee using another name... I looked her up to see what could be made of her past. Granted, she's from the core, so the lore is for the core. I know Markustay stated he likes the idea of possibly the Raven Queen/Kiaransalee being consort to Kelemvor, but personally that wouldn't work for me. I'd prefer more that she be in league with Velsharoon (I'd actually stated this in previous chats of Kiaransalee) even though both are vying for the same worshippers. In fact, their worshippers may even provide devotion to both of them... and there may be heresies out there that the two are in fact the same entity wearing two faces and portraying themselves as the "dead" deities. I actually wouldn't mind it even if Velsharoon were portrayed as in service to her, but my preference is equal sharing of power and working against Orcus and other fiendish powers who seek to impinge upon the powers of necromancy, death magic, blood magic, binding magic, etc....
However, how does what I want to see happen with Kiaransalee mesh with what I see of the Raven Queen? Both have names that have been lost to history. This would seem to be a good start. However, lets take it further. The Raven Queen seems to hate undeath because she wants to destroy souls to increase her power. Kiaransalee relishes the creation of Undead. The Raven Queen seemed to have died a mortal death before becoming a deity (she slew Nerull). Kiaransalee EITHER never died or became undead. The Raven Queen purged her true name from the world in an attempt to claim her full divinity and break the shackles placed upon her by the other gods. Kiaransalee had her true name purged from Toril by a high magic ritual against her will. The Raven Queen has allied with Corellon against Lolth. I'm not sure if Kiaransalee would go so far as to ally with Corellon... other deities maybe.... Corellon.... kind of hard to swallow. The Raven Queen has control of winter... I'd prefer Auril be a separate entity. The Raven Queen is a goddess of fate, and I'd prefer Kiaransalee not be such.
So, based on the comparison of the two, I'm not seeing an easy mesh. I could see the Raven Queen trying to come over and steal Kiaransalee's worshippers, but that ends up with a situation that I'm not real interested in. I could see the Raven Queen coming over and trying to destroy Kelemvor's wall in order to absorb all of this soul energy. I could see Kiaransalee posing as the Raven Queen in order to get into the position to trick Kelemvor. I could even see Kiaransalee, Velsharoon, Leira, and Mask all in some complex plot to trick Kelemvor into destroying the wall with Kiaransalee posing as the Raven Queen (with Kelemvor maybe being unable to discover her true name because of the high magic ritual that affected Kiaransalee... and thus he believes that this is "the Raven Queen" that he's heard of in deific circles) and then these deities using this released soul energy to catapult themselves back to the divine. However, all of this is all about either the Raven Queen posing as Kiaransalee or vice versa. It doesn't quite fit that one is the other.
From the Wikipedia entry for the Raven Queen (I cannot attest to its truthfulness or completeness)
"The Raven Queen appears as one of the deities described in the Players Handbook for fourth edition (2008).[2] Although she is an original creation for the 4th edition pantheon, Divine Power and the 4th edition Manual of the Planes establish that she was once the mortal consort of the original god of the dead, Nerull. She overthrew the tyrannical Nerull and claimed his portfolio by absorbing the powers of every tormented soul in his dominion, leading the other deities to revoke her power over deceased souls; hence, she can only claim dominion over death itself, and not over those who have died.
The Raven Queen would later solidify her power base during the War of Winter, when she demanded the portfolio of winter in exchange for slaying the rebel goddess Khala.[3]:67 The Raven Queen thus joined the ranks of those gods who control the seasons, the others being Corellon (spring), Pelor (summer) and Sehanine (autumn). At some point, the Raven Queen assisted Corellon in his war against Lolth; as a reward, she demanded power over fate, which had previously been in Lolth's portfolio.[4]
The Raven Queen counts few personal enemies (or friends) among the gods. She is the only god on "friendly" terms with Torog, but even she keeps the King That Crawls at arm's length. Her most hated foe is Orcus, the Demon Prince of the Undead, who constantly schemes to slay her and take her portfolio.[5]:206 Dragon #374 implies that she may be romantically interested in the coldhearted Archfey known as the Prince of Frost."
From Another WIKI entry
"The name of the god of death is long forgotten, but she is called the Raven Queen. She is the spinner of fate and the patron of winter. She marks the end of each mortal life, and mourners call upon her during funeral rites, in the hope that she will guard the departed from the curse of undeath. She expects her followers to abide by these commandments:
#9726;Hold no pity for those who suffer and die, for death is the natural end of life.
#9726;Bring down the proud who try to cast off the chains of fate. As the instrument of the Raven Queen, you must punish hubris where you find it.
#9726;Watch for the cults of Orcus and stamp them out whenever they arise. The Demon Prince of the Undead seeks to claim the Raven Queen’s throne. "
I then went to this URL for a dragon article for more info
https://www.wizards.com/dnd/downloads/dungeon/171/171_Raven_Queen.pdf |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2013 : 15:37:28
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Two things.
First, one of my oldest cosmological theories is based on the existence of 'archtypes' - something thats been around since 1e, but was intended just for those multispheric, demi-human deities. In other words, every world (with Elves) has a 'Corellon', who may not even be called by that name, and each is a separate, individual unto itself, buuuut, each is also a part of something greater - the 'archtype'. Thus, they are like Avatars, but I call them 'Ubertars' (because an archtype is more on the power-level of an over-god, so each Ubertar can have its own avatars as well). In some cases - on worlds in closed spheres most-likely - these deities may not even be aware they are part of the greater archtype.
Originally, I had it where these things came about when a god 'sheared-off' a piece of itself, completely separate and whole, and sent it into a new sphere to start a new base for its religion. This is how it worked with the deities of the Old Empires in FR (the originals presumably having come from Earth... although I wouldn't necessarily bet on that). While I still believe this goes on, I think this is very risky for the god in question, and in most cases, they go a different route - they patronize a mortal they elevate to an exarch. This is done by merging one of its avatars (divine essence) with a mortal (something not completely unknown on Toril). Once the new religion fully takes hold on a world, the god can then 'flick a switch', so to speak, and the exarch turns into a full-blown ubertar of the archtype (so the mortal then becomes that world's personification of the god). Thus, each is a little different, and specific to each world, but are all part of the greater whole.
I happen to think this is what happened with Bane - the name itself was a template some poor sap mortal took-on when he thought he was following his OWN agenda, and it turned out he was just a puppet on a string for the REAL Bane (a multispheric archtype). I also think that (core) 'Bane' is just a useful alias for Asmodeus, but thats an entirely different topic (as Talos was for Gruumsh).
Thus, 'The Raven Queen' is an archtype, and Kiaransalee was the exarch/ubertar for her on Threnody. Then later, when kiaransalee moved her center of worship to Toril, The Raven Queen archtype lost contact with her wayward pawn (for at least awhile), most-likely because some of her other portfolios were in the hands of other gods, like Auril (another archfey whom she is probably all too familiar with). Perhaps after the affair with Orcus, it jogged her memory (and the Raven Queen persona started becoming dominant again).
Point #2:
At this time, Khiaransalee has lost all memories of her own existence, and if she somehow makes it back to Toril (with the help of the Dark three, perhaps?), she will be a different person then she was when she was Khiaransalee - that mortal portion of her personality has all but been wiped-out. All that is left is The Raven Queen. Almost no-one - god or mortal - would know the truth behind her return, not even Kelemvor, who may see her as a 'kindred spirit', as an ally against Auril, and even as a new 'soul mate' now that Midnight/Mystra is no more.
And... she would slowly be getting her memories back. Is just a matter of time before she turns on Kel and tries to take over the afterlife. Poor, stupid Kelemvor... always falling for the dangerous chick. 
BTW, I just realized today that 4e has Torog, and PF has Torag (the dwarven god). I have to figure-out a way to spin that together (a task worthy of the gods!) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Oct 2013 15:43:34 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12080 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2013 : 17:08:32
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| Now, that I could kind of buy... that Kiaransalee had some sort of memory wipe as a result of the High Magic ritual. Since even in core, the Raven Queen is a relatively new deity... it could be that the effects of the High Magic ritual reduced even her non-Torilian aspects. Thus, Nerull runs across the "mortal" that he takes on as a consort. Nerull being the god of death.... maybe something similar happened to Kelemvor and Kiaransalee's fallen form. Hmmm, I had proposed that maybe Kiaransalee was working with Velsharoon and possibly even Mask and Leira. What if the mind affecting and lore hiding High Magic ritual that hid Kiaransalee's name wasn't truly the act of mortals? What if this was actually an act of Leira hidden in the guise of High magic? We suddenly get rid of a VERY messy bit of lore that I think most of us hate (mortals killing gods with high magic rituals), and we bring back Leira. If we state that this is so that Kiaransalee can get within Kelemvor's domain to transform the souls within the wall into the divine energy necessary to bring back certain dead gods.... we're now getting into a scenario that might work for the 5th edition. In this scenario, the "Raven Queen" of core and the "Raven Queen"/Kiaransalee of FR are two different entities... and perhaps to show the difference, she doesn't kill Kelemvor, but does revive Velsharoon. She could maintain the focus on funerary rites, but also maintain a different focus on souls... not to destroy them but to free them to her service as incorporeal banshees/spectres/wraiths, etc... or revenants returned to wreak vengeance. I'd love to see her also possibly subsume the role of Cegilune, as goddess of hags (especially nighthags that deal with souls in the form of larvae), and even possibly become a power in Rashemen as a result. None of this actually requires a linkage between the "Raven Queen" and Kiaransalee however, but it could make for a decent story. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2013 : 22:47:27
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Asmodeus always had a presence in the Realms. And they explained his sudden rise to godhood in it as well. I am ok with that. I am just not ok with Asmodeus being a deity. The Lords of the Nine goals never involved becoming a deity. Being a deity entails responsibilities they cannot easily shirk and may get in the way of their own goals. And, from what I remember, Asmodeus was meant to represent the absence of faith in deities. Why he would become one is contradictory to his background.
My best guess is, because the Realms (thanks to Ao) requires "worship=power", he probably realized his only way to gain great influence and power in the Realms was to follow Ao's rule of the deities. So he stepped in as a deity when things went into turmoil and can now do what he wants much easier. I wish they explained it like that, but I guess that's what fan Realms scholars are for.
As for the Raven Queen, as neat as she is (and it also means a great way to work in the Psychopomps creatures into the Realms from Pathfinder) I feel it unnecessary to shove a core 4E deity. A new aspect of Shar, that'll be fine but...people worry Kelemvor will be replaced.
However, last I remember, Kelemvor is not the god of DEATH but of the DEAD. As in he is not involved in the process that involves bringing one from life to death, but that his control is actually over those in the afterlife. A god of the Afterlife is a more correct term. Much like Hades was in Greek mythology, because Thanatos was the god of death in the Greek pantheon while Hades was the god of the dead. If the same set up is happening in the Realms, that is actually a good thing.
Why? Well because now the Realms can enjoy having a neutral death deity and an evil one, and not have to worry about bouncing back and forth. And, for the game itself, it will give players and DMs more options for adventures. Players can still worship Kelemvor and can still battle against the evil forces of death. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2013 : 22:52:53
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ummm in previous editions Kelemvor held both portfolios of death and the dead.
someone in the higher ups thought that the fr deities only could have one portfolio.
he still is the god of death and the dead.
4e screwed up the realms in that degree........ but that is another topic for another thread that WILL never come up again.
now back to teh death goddess.
If the RAven Queen comes into the realms as Kelemvor's consort, than that is fine with me.
ALot of players use her as such any way.
but to bring her in just to do it is a bad idea.
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12080 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2013 : 01:54:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
Asmodeus always had a presence in the Realms. And they explained his sudden rise to godhood in it as well. I am ok with that. I am just not ok with Asmodeus being a deity. The Lords of the Nine goals never involved becoming a deity. Being a deity entails responsibilities they cannot easily shirk and may get in the way of their own goals. And, from what I remember, Asmodeus was meant to represent the absence of faith in deities. Why he would become one is contradictory to his background.
My best guess is, because the Realms (thanks to Ao) requires "worship=power", he probably realized his only way to gain great influence and power in the Realms was to follow Ao's rule of the deities. So he stepped in as a deity when things went into turmoil and can now do what he wants much easier. I wish they explained it like that, but I guess that's what fan Realms scholars are for.
As for the Raven Queen, as neat as she is (and it also means a great way to work in the Psychopomps creatures into the Realms from Pathfinder) I feel it unnecessary to shove a core 4E deity. A new aspect of Shar, that'll be fine but...people worry Kelemvor will be replaced.
However, last I remember, Kelemvor is not the god of DEATH but of the DEAD. As in he is not involved in the process that involves bringing one from life to death, but that his control is actually over those in the afterlife. A god of the Afterlife is a more correct term. Much like Hades was in Greek mythology, because Thanatos was the god of death in the Greek pantheon while Hades was the god of the dead. If the same set up is happening in the Realms, that is actually a good thing.
Why? Well because now the Realms can enjoy having a neutral death deity and an evil one, and not have to worry about bouncing back and forth. And, for the game itself, it will give players and DMs more options for adventures. Players can still worship Kelemvor and can still battle against the evil forces of death.
On that note, technically Bhaal is the lord of death itself, and we know he's coming back. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Goddess of Death
