| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 08:38:26
|
From the blurb of The Sentinel:
quote:
After battling his way out Marsember, a city besieged on all sides in the wake of the Sundering, he becomes swept up in the mission of a group of odd allies--a warrior princess, an accomplished thief, and a mysterious short pudgy man exuding a faint odor of decay-- to thwart the rise of the goddess of Death.
As I understand, Shar is donning a major role in the changes that would herald 5E. Is it she being referred to in the above blurb? Is she going to try to wrest the portfolio of Death from Kelemvor?
Or is it an "already" goddess of Death? The Great Mother perhaps?
|
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
Tamsar
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
141 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 16:46:44
|
| Lims-Kragma is coming to the realms from Midkemia :) |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light |
 |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 16:56:07
|
Isn't the Raven Queen, in core D&D, a goddess of death? Maybe she's making a play for the Realms...
I'm not sure which I find more objectionable, though: forcing another core deity into the Realms, or making Shar the main baddie again. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 17:17:12
|
Possible. Though I have a . . . feeling it's going to be Shar--again. Perhaps it won't be that bad. Perhaps it may even be necessary. I mean, she's the one who started the Spellplague, so it may stand to reason she's the one to take a sorry fall when 4E closes and 5E starts.
Maybe in her arrogance to try to steal the portfolio of Death from Kelemvor, she miscalculates, loses, and is weakened considerably that she'd be forced to lie low for a hundred years or so? |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 17:54:24
|
| The only goddess of death the Realms has ever had is Kiaransalee, as far as I know. Pretty minor deity to be dedicating an entire book to for her rebirth though. I seriously hope its not the Raven Queen as I never cared for the generic stuff of 4E myself. |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12080 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 17:54:28
|
| perhaps Shar and the Raven Queen are fighting it out, with each trying to subsume the other. They are after all, very similar. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 21:31:04
|
There could be something cool in there - we should "wait and see" before we start picking it apart.
I like the Raven Queen, but I guess I would raise the same objections about her in FR. However, if they turned Shar into a Raven Queen, that might not be so bad.
I'm kinda partial to female death deities m'self... its why I use Pharasma in my HB games.
And now, for some reason, I am recalling that scene where Loki and Mephisto made some sort of deal with Hel... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 07 Oct 2013 03:23:45 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 22:24:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Possible. Though I have a . . . feeling it's going to be Shar--again. Perhaps it won't be that bad. Perhaps it may even be necessary. I mean, she's the one who started the Spellplague, so it may stand to reason she's the one to take a sorry fall when 4E closes and 5E starts.
Maybe in her arrogance to try to steal the portfolio of Death from Kelemvor, she miscalculates, loses, and is weakened considerably that she'd be forced to lie low for a hundred years or so?
That'd be nice, but the Black Chronology that they revealed at the end of the 3E era specifically referred to a coming weakness of Shar's -- and that certainly didn't happen. I recall that one quite specifically, because I theorized then that we were going to see Shar take a hit. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 00:31:54
|
| Maybe WotC's going to have a mortal woman attempt to achieve godhood? (It's happened before, after all.) It would be more interesting (IMHO) if they bring back Kiaransalee, though. (And another goddess who they might try to use just occurred to me. But I doubt WotC would be stupid enough to do that. I hope.) |
Edited by - Drustan Dwnhaedan on 07 Oct 2013 00:34:39 |
|
|
|
Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 04:15:38
|
Damn, it's too late to start a rumour that the Raven Queen is coming to FR.
Can you imagine the (confected) outrage? |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4466 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 14:19:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul
Damn, it's too late to start a rumour that the Raven Queen is coming to FR.
Can you imagine the (confected) outrage?
I think this would actually be awesome. She's already fully emeshed into my current FR cosmos anyways, so it would be nice to see some official support for the subject.
But I believe it's unlikely they're talking about the Raven Queen |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
|
|
|
Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 14:56:26
|
If the Raven Queen is inserted into FR, I'll be bowing out as a fan of the Realms. Just saying.
I doubt they would do something that boneheaded after what we've already gone through. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
|
|
|
|
Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 15:33:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
If the Raven Queen is inserted into FR, I'll be bowing out as a fan of the Realms. Just saying.
I doubt they would do something that boneheaded after what we've already gone through.
Dare I ask why?
The Raven queen, other than the name, is not all that bad. in fact, when i read the official DnD book, I figured her to be just another aspect of Shar. |
|
|
|
Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 15:50:54
|
| The main issue is that they forced CORE D&D into the realms with 4e and even going as far as showing the finger to other settings connected by lore into the greater fabric of the multiverse in which the realms coexist, changes that did upset alot of people, changes that drove people to Pathfinder or other games. WotC did suffer for their mistakes, no denying that. Now if they yet again try to push a CORE D&D aspect into the realms, those who give WotC another chance for the realms will call it quits. It deviates too far from the realms they know. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
|
|
|
Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 16:58:49
|
I love how this thread is already starting to turn angry with the merest hint of speculation from someone that this is about the Raven Queen.
Seriously, does anyone really think WotC would be so stupid as to slip an unaligned (neutral/lawful neutral) deity from PoL-land into FR when FR already has Kelemvor filling that role (remember, the Raven Queen is NOT evil) and, for all their past mistakes, there seems to be a reluctance to really upset the fanbase with something like this.
However, please don't stop being angry for no reason. It is amusing. :) |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
|
|
|
Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 17:45:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul
Seriously, does anyone really think WotC would be so stupid as to slip [...] deity from PoL-land into FR[...]
Look at Asmodeus. That answers your question even if a bit deviated from your original post the matter stands.
|
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
Edited by - Lord Bane on 07 Oct 2013 17:46:38 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 17:54:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul
Seriously, does anyone really think WotC would be so stupid as to slip [...] deity from PoL-land into FR[...]
Look at Asmodeus. That answers your question even if a bit deviated from your original post the matter stands.
And Zehir, as I recall. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1882 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 21:00:40
|
| Can someone give me a good run down on this Queen of Ravens please, what I found on the web is rather sparse. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
|
|
|
Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2013 : 21:15:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Can someone give me a good run down on this Queen of Ravens please, what I found on the web is rather sparse.
The things known about her at first were simply that she was the deity of death, fate and winter.
In some later sources it was told that she was tried to take over the mortal world by covering it in eternal winter but was beaten back by the other deities and primal spirits. Also she's the mother of Kord who sided with her during this attempt but has since then changed sides.
Even later it was revealed that she's an ascended mortal, who ursuped the former lord of death, Nerull. She was an exceptional mortal women and Nerull fell in love with her after her death and showered her soul with ever more status and power in the realm of death to win her over. Eventually she discovered his secret of how to use the souls of the dead to empower himself and beat him with his own weapon.
The latest source, the September issue of Dragon, tells that Nerull himself was an ascended mortal, and that the mortal Raven Queen was secretly enhanced by Corellon, Pelor, Sehanie and Moradin to overthrow him. They still begrudged Nerull for ambushing and slaying the original lord of death over an earlier disagreement. Nerull was the first necromancer and the lord of death disliked this invention. Because of that Nerull ambushed him while he was weak from just having fought a primordial. The original deity of death cursed hia portfolio with his dying breath that everyone who holds it should one day be claimed by it (assumed to also played a role in Nerull's demise)
In PoL she is also beset by Orcus who seeks to slay her and claim the portfolio of death (which may be the new manifestation of the curse on her portfolio set by the original deity of death) |
Edited by - Mirtek on 07 Oct 2013 21:20:04 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 03:51:05
|
I wounldn't mind having Kiaransalee reintroduced. The question is, if Shar is forced to take a leave of absence, who will take care of the Shadow Weave? Mask? Mystra? And if, indeed, Kiaransalee (who is lawful evil) returns, will she share the portfolio of Death with Kelemvor (who is neutral)? |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 08:43:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord BaneLook at Asmodeus. That answers your question even if a bit deviated from your original post the matter stands.
Major difference: Asmodeus has always been part of the Realms, even Ed's version. (Don't forget, Ed wrote the definitive 1E treatise on the Hells in Dragon.) In other words, it's completely unrelated to my point.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertAnd Zehir, as I recall.
Yes, because of a computer game. Again, does anyone think WotC would be silly enough to do this again? (That was my point. They've done the silly things before and upset the fans and now they're trying not to do it again. Slipping the Raven Queen into FR would rank as a fan-displeasing move... so, unless she happens to turn up in an R A Salvatore novel, it isn't going to happen.) |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
|
|
|
Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 09:22:15
|
Derulbaskul, Asmodeus became a god in PoL and to the big surprise, suddenly he becomes one in the 4e realms aswell, he was not a deity in the realms prior, that all happened with 4e . You canīt tell me that it was not related as they shoved the Core Rules down the realms throats. Yes i use that drastic term as i underlines what they did to accommodate their new system at the expanse of their most successful setting. You are a fan of 4e, it is your good right to be that, but my point still stands and it is related to point you made, they did it before and unless i see the finished deity list of 5e forgotten realms i have a right to be sceptic. Furthermore i disagree, R.A. Salvatore may be a good selling author for the realms but that does not mean things only happen when they surface in his books.
|
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
|
|
|
Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 13:51:50
|
Asmodeus has been a deity in FR since late 1E. That said, I would have preferred that Malkizid had been used in 4E in his place... like I have done in my games.
As for me being a fan of the 4E Realms, I have been a fan of FR since it first surfaced in the pages of Dragon but I have liked every iteration with the exception of some of the crappier products such as slade's abominable Netheril boxed set. I'm also of the opinion that the 5E version of FR should be reset to 1375 DR as I think that has the best chance of pleasing the fanbase (and those of us who like 4E can just keep on keeping on).
My comment about R A Salvatore was referring to the fact that, as the biggest single contributor to the FR bottom line, his ideas get incorporated into FR canon even when they're, um, really silly. It's not for nothing that I often refer to him as the George Lucas of the Realms: after all, his dwarves are basically gungans with their silly names and speech impediments.
My point was - and still is - that I don't think WotC at a point when it is trying to win back FR fans is going to slip the Raven Queen into the Realms... but I know they would do so in a heartbeat if RAS excreted her into one of his books.
I know WotC has done some horrible things with the FR brand - hey, just because I like the 4E version of the Realms doesn't mean I have any thing good to say about the 4E world map (it seriously looks like it was painted with the contents of my son's nappy/diaper and using his bum as the "brush") - but I think they're not going to screw the pooch again for a while by slipping the Raven Queen into the Realms. |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
Edited by - Derulbaskul on 08 Oct 2013 14:00:32 |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12080 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 15:38:05
|
| I definitely wouldn't mind Kiaransalee reintroduced. Of all the drow deities that went away, she was the one I was most upset by. I understand why people loved Eilistraee and Vhaeraun and even Selvetarm, but Kiaransalee was a perfect goddess if you wanted a drow city who celebrated both wizardry and priests in equal measure. I also never saw her as sexist as Lolth, but females might be more favored. Power would be the thing with her though. Also would be a good place to introduce some of the odd classes, like the dread necromancer, binders, warlocks, incarnates and the various prestige classes that combine all of these (mystic theurges, anima mages, ultimate magi,eldritch disciple, eldritch theurge, true necromancer, necrocarnate, soulcaster, etc...) |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12080 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 15:42:25
|
| Oh, and as I've said in the past... I see no problem with multiple deities of the same portfolio... so I could see say Velsharoon and Kiaransalee even working together on some ends. They may even like each other, each seeing the other as having a market of worshippers that would turn elsewhere rather than worship themselves (i.e. humans will find another deity besides Kiaransalee as she's seen as a drow goddess... drow will find another deity besides Velsharoon as he's seen as a surface deity). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 15:45:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I wounldn't mind having Kiaransalee reintroduced. The question is, if Shar is forced to take a leave of absence, who will take care of the Shadow Weave? Mask? Mystra? And if, indeed, Kiaransalee (who is lawful evil) returns, will she share the portfolio of Death with Kelemvor (who is neutral)?
Not sure if your post here was inspired by Mirtek's (just above yours), but I was thinking the same thing: Kiaransalee as the Raven Queen! 
Both are death deities, and both had major run-ins with Orcus. Also, we don't really know what she looked like before (her rise to power), but lets face it, drow are always drawn 'stunningly beautiful' (and although one might claim that is an 'artistic thing', its a fact that drow practice euthanasia on 'unfit' children... which would include anything they considered "less then perfect". Drow are unearthly-beautiful not only because they were elves, but because they stranggle all the ugly babies and weed-out those bad genes). 
My point being, the stuff about the Raven Queen being so exceptional (in appearance and I am sure in other... areas..) really shoe-horns well with her being a dark Elf - they have raised 'perfectionism' to an unholy art-form. Also, Khiaransalee was a Dark Elf, but we really don't know if she was truly Drow - we know almost nothing about her homeworld (which could have been filled with non-Ilithiir Dark Elves, for all we know).
I think I would really like Khiaransalee to come back as the Raven Queen come 5e - we get her return, and we don't mess-up Shar (any more then she already is LOL). The Elves need a deity of death, and she's a great fit, IMHO. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 08 Oct 2013 15:46:58 |
|
|
|
Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 16:04:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
If the Raven Queen is inserted into FR, I'll be bowing out as a fan of the Realms. Just saying.
I doubt they would do something that boneheaded after what we've already gone through.
Dare I ask why?
The Raven queen, other than the name, is not all that bad. in fact, when i read the official DnD book, I figured her to be just another aspect of Shar.
Largely because it's part of the 4e PoL core setting, giant chunks of which were ham-handedly forced into FR and every other setting touched upon in 4e (even when that inclusion blatantly contradicted existing setting canon). It left a truly bad impression on me in how it was handled when at the same time lots of pre-4e material was quite openly denigrated initially.
To a much, much lesser extent, perhaps the rumors of the Raven Queen's meta-origin as the home PC of one of the designers. I don't know the truth of the rumor however, and having met them years prior at my first GenCon, they were really cool when I talked to them, so I don't blame them even if that was the RQ's origin. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
|
|
|
|
Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 17:00:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul
Asmodeus has been a deity in FR since late 1E.
Neither Faihts and Avatars, nor Power and Pantheons, nor Faiths and Pantheons lists Asmodeus among the deities. These three source books are the ones dealing with the deities in the realms and list them off.
Please give us your "source" where you got that claim from. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
|
|
|
Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 20:42:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul
Asmodeus has been a deity in FR since late 1E.
Neither Faihts and Avatars, nor Power and Pantheons, nor Faiths and Pantheons lists Asmodeus among the deities. These three source books are the ones dealing with the deities in the realms and list them off.
Please give us your "source" where you got that claim from.
Well, all archfiends had been considered lesser deities in 1e and Ed even once wrote that he placed Bane in Acheron to avoid him coming into conflict with the cadre of lesser deities that are the LotN. But that's already all there is about Asmodeus being a deity (well, yeah, Guide to Hell, but that clashes with canon in so many areas and is thus best left out). |
|
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2013 : 23:04:48
|
| Zehir Zehir, what we have is failure to communicate.... and that is how Zehir got into the realms..... hahahahahahah |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
|
|
|
Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2013 : 02:09:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I wounldn't mind having Kiaransalee reintroduced. The question is, if Shar is forced to take a leave of absence, who will take care of the Shadow Weave? Mask? Mystra? And if, indeed, Kiaransalee (who is lawful evil) returns, will she share the portfolio of Death with Kelemvor (who is neutral)?
I thought the Shadow weave died when the weave did and did not exist anymore. At least that was the impression I got from all the books. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Goddess of Death
