| Author |
 Topic  |
|
zhentar reborn
Acolyte
34 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Feb 2004 : 15:31:21
|
When you look around the FR do you notice how many wizards there are that are hundreds of years old? How do they accomplish this? What do they sacrifice to gain near immortallity? Don't these ancient wizards live outside the natural order of things?
Take the Lich, who sacrifices his/her mortal life for the chance to continue the study of magic while undead. I don't have a problem fitting a 700 year old lich arch-mage into a game. Because the lich, for all of its magical power, has identifiable weaknesses that characters can use to their advantage. Again, what do these ever-living mages sacrifice? What are their weaknesses?
At the very LEAST, I think they should be labeled as outsiders. Any thoughts out there?
|
Think what you've always thought, and you'll be what you've always been. |
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2004 : 15:43:51
|
One longstanding theme of the Realms is the desire by wizards and some others to stave off mortality so that their minds, egos, lore, and power aren't lost. They seek deathlessness through lichdom, potions of longevity, elxirs, soul-trapping, pacts with fiends or gods, and other magical and alchemical means. (This is well discussed in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical.)
In turn they may sacrifice their lives (when such processes go astray), much time and effort, humanity, sanity, friendship. Instead of sharing their lives and work, many turn into bitter, paranoid shells. But others use life-sustaining magics for good. It's part of the Realms genre, and doesn't need to be penalized artificially.
(I should also note that age has been removed from any game-rule or game-balance role in 3E since it doesn't materially affect most campaigns, which don't span many years.) |
Edited by - Faraer on 02 Feb 2004 15:47:36 |
 |
|
|
zhentar reborn
Acolyte
34 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2004 : 16:15:33
|
That's a great answer Faraer! But without penalties it is just a little to simple for my tastes. Why would anyone in Faerun aspire to be anything else but a wizard. If you could wield the power of an arch mage and increase your life span by 1000%, yeah sign me up. Just have to remember to use my powers for "good."
I think there should be something positively wicked about these ever-living folks. Elminster, the Simbul, Manshoon, and others should absolutely terrify the common person of Faerun. |
Think what you've always thought, and you'll be what you've always been. |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2004 : 16:51:57
|
Most people aspire to a good life, hard work, love and children -- living for ever appeals to few, and you're right, unnatural longevity does seem strange and disturbing to most. Hence things like Khelben Blackstaff masquerading as his grandson, and even in Shadowdale where you see a lot of funny stuff, people still aren't quite used to Elminster. Another Realms theme is the mistrust of magic, which is so often used selfishly and can cause such harm so quickly. Even so, longevity magics aren't actually evil, and it would be hard to change the Realms so that they were since so many good-aligned people (including kings, not just mages) use them. But what kind of penalty are you thinking of?
And many people just don't have any gift for Art. It's all well worked out, as you can see, and the downsides I outlined are enough to put off most from the more drastic methods. |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2004 : 17:28:09
|
Technically, anyone with the brains for it can learn magic, but it takes a lot of effort for little gain. Most people in the realms would only be able to learn cantrips and first-level spells, unless they start really working at it.
Sorcerers and bards are supposed to have some spark of magic in their beings, but all you really need is to be able to 'feel' it, which can be learned later in life or be something you're born with.
I think that magics themselves can aid in extending life, since mages draw on outside power. Also, simple extra magics like medical spells (say, a varient of a shapechange spell) might better health and therefore lifespan -- just as it is in the real world. Heck, just keeping your teeth in good shape can extend your life! Not only will that keep rot from getting into your gums and poisoning your body, but it will also make sure you can still eat proper foods. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
EcThelion
Learned Scribe
Norway
323 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2004 : 18:45:54
|
Why on earth do everybody presist that Liches must be Evil, anyway? Why can't a old mage just say "Well. I think I'll go and start the process of turning into a lich today! Just for, ya know, for the heck of it!"? Why must they be Evil?
Why can't I desire power, that I will use for good? Huh?
It's just annoying I tell 'ya.  |
Ec'Thelion, formerly known as Forgotten One, now known as Ec'Thelion the Overpowered.
Currently not all that active. I'm preoccupied with Warcraft III for the moment. Bite me :P |
Edited by - EcThelion on 02 Feb 2004 18:48:57 |
|
|
|
Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 00:34:27
|
| yes but i think there is a human sacrafice in order to become a lich am not sure but other then that you are right |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 05:43:35
|
| There are good liches. They aren't as common since becomeing undead isn't easy to do and still keep your humanity; as well, good mages would be more inclined to let things take their natural course. However, I recall that elven liches from Myth Drannor's golden age would do this so they could always be the guardians of their families. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
Fibura Gauntlet
Seeker
United Kingdom
50 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 09:38:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by EcThelion
Why on earth do everybody presist that Liches must be Evil, anyway? Why can't a old mage just say "Well. I think I'll go and start the process of turning into a lich today! Just for, ya know, for the heck of it!"? Why must they be Evil?
Yeah, why can't a Lich feel remorse, make reparations for his crimes and become an upstanding member of the community? And then call on the full protection of the law when the nasty PCs burgle his lair? 
Sorry, I've been reading old Dragon Magazines again  |
- Fibura Gauntlet
A scrib(bl)e on the margins of Candlekeep |
|
|
|
Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 14:24:47
|
| Umm. Have you not ever thought of a simple potion that keeps you from growing older? Or slows down that process? |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 15:02:22
|
Re: why liches evil?
Aardy R. DeVarque's "Literary Sources of D&D" page says:quote:
A lychgate is an entrance to a churchyard where a body rests before burial--"lych" means person or dead body (From German "Leiche", meaning "dead body, cadaver, corpse"). The D&D lich is very similar to a character from Taran Wanderer, by Lloyd Alexander, a magician with an unnaturally-extended life who can only die if the item in which he has stored his soul is broken (in this case, a bone from his little finger); however, the term "lich" is never used in the book. The origin of both the D&D lich and Alexander's character is probably the Russian folkloric character "Kotshchey the Deathless", an unnaturally long-lived magician (or demon) who was almost impossible to kill. (Kotshchey himself was written up with D&D stats in The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, reprinted in Monster Manual II.)
The image of the wicked dead-man sorcerer comes first and determines the details of the continuity. Thus, the lichnee process (best described in REF5 Lords of Darkness) involves poison, and human and demihuman blood.
So when Ed conceives of good human and elven liches, rather than dilute and pervert the existing lich-image, he makes related but separate creatures called archliches (SJR1 Lost Ships) and baelnorn (Ruins of Myth Drannor). |
Edited by - Faraer on 03 Feb 2004 15:02:55 |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 20:10:37
|
The idea of powerful beings hiding their souls someplace isn't new. It's a rather common thing in Norse mythology. I'm rather fond of the story of the giant who could only be killed if he was stabbed in the heart. He'd hidden his heart inside a duck inside a pig inside a goat that was buried under his doorstep.  
Of course, my favorite is the one my brother made up. He has a story with a lich (the first lich in centuries) who drains every drop of his blood during the ceremony and puts his soul into that. Then he magically turns the peak of a mountain (liches are even more powerful in his story -- this isn't D&D) into his fortress, mixing his blood into the seamless stone. In short, to be killed, every single piece of his fortress would need to be detroyed. Sounds sort of Biblical: "No two stones shall be together." Except that this fortress is all one piece.  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 00:35:25
|
| while there r good liches, 1 of the reasons y is that u must become undead 2 do so. becoming a lich removes all morals and goodness from a person. all that is left is the desire 4 power. there r however exceptions, thus the few good liches |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
|
|
|
Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 01:02:13
|
| I'm more interested in the methods of surviving the ages alive. Becoming a lich allows a mage to endure in some state, but wouldn't it take more skill to remain living for centuries than it would to become a lich, which, as undead, automatically lasts forever (unless, obviously, it is destroyed) Powerful mages such as Vangerdahast manage to live for huge amounts of time without resorting to lichhood. Short of divine intervention, is there any documented way for a mage tolive forever? |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
|
|
|
DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 04:03:08
|
| Sourcemaster2, the only wizard I'm sure of that can live forever without divine intervention is Halaster Blackcloak. When he was young (around 100 lol!), Halaster took potions and elixirs and then as he got more powerful to the point he is at today, he casted powerful wish and permanency spells to make himself live forever. However, there is a great risk to casting these spells since even one incorrect word in the casting can kill you. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 05:14:07
|
| Remember, Vangerdahast, Khelban, and Elminster are all Chosen of Mystra -- true Chosen, not the copies that people have given to other deities, misunderstanding the role of Mystra's Chosen. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 05:30:51
|
| Really? I wasn't under the impression that Vangerdahast was a Chosen of Mystra, but, oh well, if you're correct, I'll differ to your judgement. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 06:45:18
|
I'm pretty sure he is, though now that you mention it, I can't remember the exact reference to it . . .  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 11:32:46
|
| I don't think that Vangey ic a Chosen. Remember, the roayal mages of Cormyr have a history of living for centuries, outliving many kings per mage. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
|
|
|
kahonen
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 12:48:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Remember, Vangerdahast, Khelban, and Elminster are all Chosen of Mystra -- true Chosen, not the copies that people have given to other deities, misunderstanding the role of Mystra's Chosen.
You can add the Symbul to the list of Mystra's Chosen as well. She is also very old.
I tend to agree with the others concerning Vangerdahast - I don't believe he's a chosen of Mystra either. Come to think of it, are you sure Khelben Blackstaff was?
|
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 14:25:51
|
Khelben yes, Vangerdahast no. Vangerdahast is loyal to Cormyr rather than to magic.
Sourcemaster2 -- see Volo's Guide to All Things Magical which is a free download at wizards.com. |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 16:30:12
|
Okay, I was wrong on that. I don't know how I mixed it up. Maybe it was the way Elminster talks about "Old Vangy."
There are a lot of Chosen, Kahonen. The Symbul's only one of at least nine, including Elminster, Khelban, Storm Silverhand, Alustriel, and a drow I forget the name of that seems to be shared with Elistraee. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
Zacas
Learned Scribe
USA
261 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 22:14:24
|
Khelben is, that's why he was using his silver fire in the Return of the Archwizards set of novels :P Mystra's chosen all have that silver fire (similar to spellfire in ways i believe) ANd on page 274 of the FR campaign setting, it says he's a chosen of mystra...
|
I am like a superhero, with no powers or motivation.
I have gone to find myself. If I get back before I return, please keep me here.
People like you are the reason people like me are on medication. |
|
|
|
DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2004 : 00:37:57
|
| Vangerdahast is a Chosen of Mystra. I remember reading it in Elminster in Hell and also the Forgotten Realms Campaign Manual. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
|
|
|
Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2004 : 01:38:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Okay, I was wrong on that. I don't know how I mixed it up. Maybe it was the way Elminster talks about "Old Vangy."
There are a lot of Chosen, Kahonen. The Symbul's only one of at least nine, including Elminster, Khelban, Storm Silverhand, Alustriel, and a drow I forget the name of that seems to be shared with Elistraee.
Qilue Veladorn, Bookwyrm. She's a Chosen of Mystra but a High Priestess of Eilistraee. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
|
|
|
Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2004 : 02:17:02
|
| so do we know how many Chosen there r exactly? or could there be more out there? |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
|
|
|
Zacas
Learned Scribe
USA
261 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2004 : 04:50:58
|
| the seven sisters (Storm, Qilue, ALustriel, Simbul [Alassra], dove, Laeral, and Sylune ), elminster, khelben... those are all i can find from the FR campaign setting... but for some reason i'm thinking Halaster might be as a result of events in Elminster in hell... or maybe i was reading more into that event... |
I am like a superhero, with no powers or motivation.
I have gone to find myself. If I get back before I return, please keep me here.
People like you are the reason people like me are on medication. |
|
|
|
DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2004 : 05:36:30
|
Zacas, I don't think Halaster is a Chosen of Mystra. I think that he merely just converted his faith from Shar to Mystra.
BTW, Qilue is also a Chosen of Eilistraee for people who didn't know that.
|
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
|
|
Zacas
Learned Scribe
USA
261 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2004 : 16:07:46
|
| i'm not sure, i'm kinda guessing from the results of El in Hell (wow that rhymes :P)... as the FRCS doesn't show it in his write-up but the FRCS was before El in Hell... so... *shrug* |
I am like a superhero, with no powers or motivation.
I have gone to find myself. If I get back before I return, please keep me here.
People like you are the reason people like me are on medication. |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2004 : 22:45:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Zacas
i'm not sure, i'm kinda guessing from the results of El in Hell (wow that rhymes :P)... as the FRCS doesn't show it in his write-up but the FRCS was before El in Hell... so... *shrug*
According to Ed at 2003's gencon Halaster is not a Chosen.
http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0307D&L=realms-l&P=R4595
"a question was raised about Halaster, and how he's now become lucid. El told that he'd encountered the "Mad Mage" of undermountain several times, and stressed that while Mystra healed him of his insanity, he still was not a Chosen of hers."
|
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
The Ever-living?
