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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 17:19:10
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
The Marco Volo adventures were a horrid series IMO...especially since the gods showed up at the end. Not that I mind a cameo from a god and all, but it was a bit of overkill.
Now just to clarify the debate you folks are having. Are you arguing for/against the 4e version of the GAME or the SETTING? The reason I ask it that sometimes things get lost in translation with strictly text-based discussions. What someone means (in their head) doesn't always translate well into text. I'm assuming you basically mean the setting but some of your points seem to refer to the game itself (but then maybe what's in MY MIND is getting lost in translation). 
Whenever I say 4E, I'm always talking about the setting and not the specific set of rules. If I do talk about the rule-set, I'll always say "4E rule set"... but you do make an important point. Even here, sometimes it's not easy to tell.
Importantly, though, I believe that the setting should be excellent no matter what rules are used.
For a long time, my group used Rolemaster rules for the Realms, which have no connection to D&D rules at all.
And I tried out the 4E D&D rules. I thought they were pretty good, if a little combat-heavy and dependent on miniatures movement. In some ways, I think the wizard was more fun to play with the way they did daily and at-will spells rather than taking a Vancian approach (and Rolemaster doesn't do Vancian either, btw). I think they're doing a good thing for the 5E playtest by retaining at-wills (at least with cantrips).
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2013 : 03:55:00
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Sage Edit: For the sake of the future of this scroll's discussion, I've removed my lengthy reply to the current exchange between Therise and myself.
I've realised now that we're simply coming from two vastly opposing schools of thought that will never likely meet in compromise, so I'm out, for now. Therise holds views that simply don't wash with my own experience, just as I, suspect, my views run wildly counter to what Therise holds true.
So, rather than have this degenerate into an argument, I'd would prefer we simply move on. I value Therise's participation here at Candlekeep too much for us to start becoming antagonistic with one another over something like this.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 14 Aug 2013 04:07:46 |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2013 : 06:01:04
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| *does the seductive dance of a computer nerd, while the argument cools off* We are at intermission folks, please grab popcorn on the way out. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2013 : 06:03:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
Remember, aboleths are otherworldly creatures with unfathomable motivations. Sure you can point to the sovereignty trilogy and say they were just trying to unleash the far realms into multiverse.
But were they? Again. Genius alien intelligences with inhuman motivations. Xxiphu is hanging there, seemingly in torpor. A number of earlier posters have complained that enemies should remain "shadowy". What could be more shadowy and open to a DM's interpretation than a city full of alien intelligences? They could be up to anything in there! And for a creative DM, that something could be far more horrible than unleashing madness on reality.
Positioning the Aboleths and Xxiphu in the shadows is meant more than as a literal in-game location or that a stated alien thing simply exists in the setting. A certain unknowable atmosphere should be maintained when using these creatures, it's part of their sub-genre modus operandi.
Pull them to the surface and have them sit there supposedly "alien" while technically plotting to unleash madness onto reality is not that strange at all. That the typical mortal world mustache twirling villain shuffle. Once they've become a known quantity, they're not as potent anymore. They've become stat'ed monsters again. It's the same deal with the FR deities or the creator races or the ancient lost empires. Reveal too much, tie down too much, and they lose a lot of their menacing potential. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2013 : 06:28:43
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Sage Edit: For the sake of the future of this scroll's discussion, I've removed my lengthy reply to the current exchange between Therise and myself.
I've realised now that we're simply coming from two vastly opposing schools of thought that will never likely meet in compromise, so I'm out, for now. Therise holds views that simply don't wash with my own experience, just as I, suspect, my views run wildly counter to what Therise holds true.
So, rather than have this degenerate into an argument, I'd would prefer we simply move on. I value Therise's participation here at Candlekeep too much for us to start becoming antagonistic with one another over something like this.
Awwwww... but I love debate! It's fun!
Oh well, you're right we're too polarised on some things. But there was never any animosity.
Except towards Xxiphu. That thing's gotta go. Stage left. Or I break out the vaudeville hook. 
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2013 : 06:41:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
Remember, aboleths are otherworldly creatures with unfathomable motivations. Sure you can point to the sovereignty trilogy and say they were just trying to unleash the far realms into multiverse.
But were they? Again. Genius alien intelligences with inhuman motivations. Xxiphu is hanging there, seemingly in torpor. A number of earlier posters have complained that enemies should remain "shadowy". What could be more shadowy and open to a DM's interpretation than a city full of alien intelligences? They could be up to anything in there! And for a creative DM, that something could be far more horrible than unleashing madness on reality.
Positioning the Aboleths and Xxiphu in the shadows is meant more than as a literal in-game location or that a stated alien thing simply exists in the setting. A certain unknowable atmosphere should be maintained when using these creatures, it's part of their sub-genre modus operandi.
Pull them to the surface and have them sit there supposedly "alien" while technically plotting to unleash madness onto reality is not that strange at all. That the typical mortal world mustache twirling villain shuffle. Once they've become a known quantity, they're not as potent anymore. They've become stat'ed monsters again. It's the same deal with the FR deities or the creator races or the ancient lost empires. Reveal too much, tie down too much, and they lose a lot of their menacing potential.
What if it is just one plot of many ? You see it from venom in her veins with the Derro, you see it in the stardeep trio, you see it in the brimstone angels.
IT is a real and tangible power, more so then it has ever been. Whatever keeps the far realm out, is obviously gone or has been weakened, abelothes being on the surface is a symptom of this fact, not the creator.
Guardians of the Living Gate, are a LITERAL Cut and Paste rip off, of the http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/The_Gatekeepers Gatekeepers in eberron .
So this chuluthu sphere and everything, I think was NOT the inspiration, but rather the rotating realm of Xoriat http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Xoriat which I think if 4e had done better, we would have seen this tied up and exposed, instead we are sort of left with half gaping things, as I never really got into the 4 e source books.
TLDR : While the far realms may have the spooky culuthu feel, I think the true inspiration was Xoriat from Eberron, and that everything we see is a symptom of that, rather then the actual point. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2013 : 14:20:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Except towards Xxiphu. That thing's gotta go.
I hear you, and felt exactly the same way just a few years ago.
I don't know if my expectations have just lowered, or I've 'mellowed with age' (highly doubtful - ask my kids), or if I've just warmed-up to abberations somewhat {shudder}.
I think it might just be 4e's death-knell that has me in such a chipper mood. Ed's steering the ship, and from what I've seen they are definitely listening to us and heading in the right direction. I can live with a few mentalist catfish in my seas to get MY FR back the way it should be. After all, I can just make sure the PCs have really BIG fishing poles.
Seriously though, 5e will be a compromise, but I think it will be one that just about everyone can get onboard with. Ignore the parts you don't like; its tough, I know, but it can be done. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Aug 2013 18:44:42 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2013 : 14:35:05
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| I think I would have been more comfortable with the abolethic sovereignty if their city hand't been a gargantuan spire sticking up out of the sea. It just seems so out of place and non-Realmsian to me. If it had been a floating city (more akin to an island) it would have been more palatable. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2013 : 16:17:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
But there was never any animosity.
Aye.
quote:
Except towards Xxiphu. That thing's gotta go. Stage left. Or I break out the vaudeville hook.
I'd almost pay to see that.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2013 : 17:03:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
But there was never any animosity.
Aye.
quote:
Except towards Xxiphu. That thing's gotta go. Stage left. Or I break out the vaudeville hook.
I'd almost pay to see that.
You're welcome.
http://sketchtoy.com/48219647
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1632 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2013 : 18:48:13
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It is a floating city, it don't just stick out of the Ocean it floats over it. That's why they have to give thier Aquatic slaves magically induced air breathing and flight.
You could sail a ship right underneath it, although that might be risky. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2013 : 18:51:21
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@Therise: Those giant flying s***m are scarey as hell! 
I'd be more afraid of those then the canon ones.
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I think I would have been more comfortable with the abolethic sovereignty if their city hand't been a gargantuan spire sticking up out of the sea. It just seems so out of place and non-Realmsian to me. If it had been a floating city (more akin to an island) it would have been more palatable.
I'd have to agree with this assessment, but not so much in terms of 'The Realms', as in terms of past Aboleth lore. Since when do they behave so overtly? Thats not their nature.
Once again, I will have to turn to PF for how something should be handled: They are also a 'Big Bad' in the Golarion setting, but guess what? They are buried DEEP, and hardly anyone knows about them.
Thats how I picture Aboleths behaving. If you going to embrace Lovecraftian elements, at least understand one of the most basic premises of Cthulhu lore - their greatest asset is that almost no-one knows about them!!!
If you are going to play with the toys, at least read the instructions....  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Aug 2013 18:52:31 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2013 : 19:49:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Therise: Those giant flying s***m are scarey as hell!
I'd be more afraid of those then the canon ones.
I KNOW! RUN!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!
They're -coming- for you. There is no escape, or enough bleach in existence.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2013 : 03:46:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
But there was never any animosity.
Aye.
quote:
Except towards Xxiphu. That thing's gotta go. Stage left. Or I break out the vaudeville hook.
I'd almost pay to see that.
You're welcome.
http://sketchtoy.com/48219647
At this laboriously early point in my work day, I really needed that.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2013 : 03:48:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
You could sail a ship right underneath it, although that might be risky.
I'm going from memory, but weren't there also "abolethic-bred" defences swimming beneath the waters of Xxiphu? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2013 : 07:21:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My one complaint with aberrations with 4e is that I feel they went out of their way to include EVERYTHING that 4e brought to the table - look at Neverwinter, for example. Its the kitchen-sink of 4e-isms. Not slamming that product - I rather liked it - but it did try to use everything available, which was a bit overwhelming, plot-wise.
Agree with you here.
I just couldn't wrap my head around the aberrations in terms of finding a way to use them in the Neverwinter Current Clack I wrote. I think gothic horror can be fun but I just couldn't see how to fit it into Neverwinter. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2013 : 07:33:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
It's not there to do anything in a story or a novel.
It's there for me to sit down in my home game and make it the big bad, or make it the secret benefactor for the party, or to do anything I want with it. It's motivations and purposes are for any given DM to decide for themselves.
Hang on a moment. Ordinarily, I'd agree that something like Xxiphu would be an intriguing adventure hook. But in this case, it's not. People become extremely hesitant to do their own things with objects and characters that have been heavily used in novels.
Not me. I’ve used Cormyr during and after the war against Nalavarra and her minions twice with great success. I see your point about a spoiled hook, but I think whether something’s spoiled or not really depends on whether the players at the gaming table are reading those same novels.
As it happens, the players at my gaming table hadn’t read Cormyr, Beyond the High Road or Death of the Dragon, but each time after that adventure arc came to a close I had at least one player from both campaign asking for permission to read the books, which I encouraged them to do. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2013 : 18:41:51
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My only thing is that the addition of the city did not add anything at all to the Realms. Aboleths were about already - just a bit smaller and underground. It reminded me of the Night Below adventure with the large aboleths - which, btw had a whole section about how you could plop it into the realms.
Likewise, removing it does not remove anything from the realms. You want abolethic bad guys - here are some more that are not hovering above the sea. If I remember right, D's Guide to the Underdark had a city or two of them as well with some adventure/plot ideas. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2013 : 19:17:54
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quote:
It is a floating city, it don't just stick out of the Ocean it floats over it. That's why they have to give thier Aquatic slaves magically induced air breathing and flight.
You could sail a ship right underneath it, although that might be risky.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the correction...but now it seems even WORSE than before. Now we have a floating city (akin to Shade-which I also don't particularly care for, btw) but instead it's a flying spike? Sorry, but that just strikes me as a ridiculous image rather than strange and/or frightening one. I assume they wanted it to be 'Shade with a twist' but, IDK, I would have gone with a weird 'bio-ship' model with asymmetrical geometry or something. Although I still would not have liked it. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2013 : 20:08:00
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| They are from the far realm , you are suppose to not like them. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2013 : 22:17:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
...As it happens, the players at my gaming table hadn’t read Cormyr, Beyond the High Road or Death of the Dragon, but each time after that adventure arc came to a close I had at least one player from both campaign asking for permission to read the books, which I encouraged them to do.
... M'kay.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2013 : 12:32:28
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LOL - I prefer players who never read any of the FR books; I greatly dislike preconceptions.
Which is I guess why I am building my homebrewed version of The Realms ATM - it has many things similar to Toril, but its not the same planet at all. Thus, the novels no longer matter. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
498 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2013 : 20:39:11
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
They are from the far realm , you are suppose to not like them.
I would say it's a bit different than that. Sure, if our world got invaded by neo-Cthulhoids like Xxiphu, that'd be a big 'dislike', and player characters are no different in that regard. Far Realm Denizens are supposed to be inimical to life in 'normal' planes of existence.
It isn't frightening, it isn't mysterious, and even though it may have been intended as such, it isn't 'Lovecraftian'. It could have been all these things, and more besides, but as it stands, it's just sort of...there. It's like a colossal dandelion stalk in the middle of the Fallen Stars.
I am a huge, huge fan of H.P. Lovecraft, but I fail to see how this even remotely compares beyond a base level. It's like comparing a pea shooter with a mass driver...both are 'projectile weapons', but that's about it. One inspires awe, terror, and fear, and the other, well...
- OMH |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2013 : 22:02:52
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
quote:
It is a floating city, it don't just stick out of the Ocean it floats over it. That's why they have to give thier Aquatic slaves magically induced air breathing and flight.
You could sail a ship right underneath it, although that might be risky.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the correction...but now it seems even WORSE than before. Now we have a floating city (akin to Shade-which I also don't particularly care for, btw) but instead it's a flying spike? Sorry, but that just strikes me as a ridiculous image rather than strange and/or frightening one. I assume they wanted it to be 'Shade with a twist' but, IDK, I would have gone with a weird 'bio-ship' model with asymmetrical geometry or something. Although I still would not have liked it.
It floats on it's side, is covered in runes, has air breathing kraken's flying around it, & it has thunder storms around it. Besides it's really cool, because the designers of the 4E realms said so...
As most of you guys know I could really careless about the 5E Realms. I am done with the WotC rodeo. Give them 5 years and someone will get a bright idea and start screwing with things again. I got my Realms books. I will take what I need and leave the rest. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2013 : 23:16:34
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| I think someone was smokin' too much Kraken. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Aug 2013 23:32:11 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2013 : 02:40:03
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quote:
As most of you guys know I could really careless about the 5E Realms. I am done with the WotC rodeo. Give them 5 years and someone will get a bright idea and start screwing with things again. I got my Realms books. I will take what I need and leave the rest.
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I'm teetering on the edge of this myself. The only reason I haven't abandoned them entirely is because Ed is at the helm, where he belongs. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
498 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2013 : 06:24:04
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
quote:
As most of you guys know I could really careless about the 5E Realms. I am done with the WotC rodeo. Give them 5 years and someone will get a bright idea and start screwing with things again. I got my Realms books. I will take what I need and leave the rest.
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I'm teetering on the edge of this myself. The only reason I haven't abandoned them entirely is because Ed is at the helm, where he belongs.
Truthfully, it's a good bet that they know that (not about you, specifically, but BUNCHES of people like you)...which is WHY they have Ed at the helm. Whatever else one can say about them, they're not stupid. Took them a bit, admittedly, but all judgment should be held until we see what they have to offer us. With Ed and R.A.S. driving the train, we should see some good things.
- OMH |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2013 : 06:44:32
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Ahh...yes night below was the box set.it was were i learned why the abolish were to be feared. The savants were powerful mages and psionist, their wards were every bit as potent if not more so than the drow way marker and defense runes.and from how the aboleth city in night below was protected,storming xxiphu for anyone less than epic would be suicide.just because a city has risen doesn't weaken their power.think about it most of the savants are strong enough Tom dispel the defenses, you have against psionics and water breathing spells. These are supergeniuos creatures when they fully await MOST surface dwellers even some epic heroes have never encountered them and don't know what aboleths can do.even the drow usually don't escape the clutches of the aboleth.only their small number /and aquatic nature keeps them from ruling the underdark.come on the juveniles are as dangerous as a bear without using psionics.
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I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2013 : 11:41:02
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| Xxiphu doesn´t need to go, they just need to sink it back under water and cripple their ambitions so they are not "in your face" so blatantly anymore. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Xxiphu needs to go
