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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 15:09:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Really, Sage? Why keep something that sits smack dab in the middle of the setting and does nothing, has no real defining motivations, and doesn't actually organize anything except for random "agents" that have no real defined purpose themselves?
Because I know that Wizards can [and probably should] rely on the creative efforts of freelance designers and writers who have, at one time or another, expressed interest in working to further mesh these kinds of odd new elements into the existing Realmslore.
Depends on the freelancers.
Not only that, but the leeway Wizards allows in order for the concept of Xxiphu to be more effectively meshed into existing Realmslore. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 15:13:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Xxiphu existed in the lore before 4e... it just should have stayed in the Underdark.
Where? I don't recall any pre-4E references to it.
Not directly, but Bruce Cordell's pre-4e novels -- like Darkvision and Stardeep -- were already laying the groundwork for the Abolethic Sovereignty and the threat of "ancient extraplanar evils" rising from the sea, so-to-speak. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 15:38:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Xxiphu existed in the lore before 4e... it just should have stayed in the Underdark.
Where? I don't recall any pre-4E references to it.
Not directly, but Bruce Cordell's pre-4e novels -- like Darkvision and Stardeep -- were already laying the groundwork for the Abolethic Sovereignty and the threat of "ancient extraplanar evils" rising from the sea, so-to-speak.
IIRC Sage it's named in Stardeep. Now it's been over 5 years since I read that novel, so I could be wrong. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 15:49:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Depends on the freelancers.
Not only that, but the leeway Wizards allows in order for the concept of Xxiphu to be more effectively meshed into existing Realmslore.
I think we may be talking about different things. What I meant by "depends on the freelancers" wasn't a reflection on whether or not some of them might want to do such a thing.
I meant that there are freelancers that I don't like, or more precisely that I don't like their work. Over the past few years, I haven't really been impressed with anything. Nothing stands out to me as having been really great, or even really all that good.
"Filling in" historical details, if it's done by someone who intends well but produces mediocre or poor quality lore, just should not happen. Additionally, any time by WotC spent on such a project, even if it's freelancer-hired work, will still be construed as spending time and money on the wrong thing: the failed past.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Not directly, but Bruce Cordell's pre-4e novels -- like Darkvision and Stardeep -- were already laying the groundwork for the Abolethic Sovereignty and the threat of "ancient extraplanar evils" rising from the sea, so-to-speak.
While some may have enjoyed these novels, I didn't. I thought they were a clumsy way of trying to force in elements that were not "Realmsian" and actually detracted from the setting. Cynosure, for example, belongs in a setting more like Eberron. And "ancient extraplanar evils" might have worked if done well. But in this case, even that comes across as a heavily tacked on idea rather than something that has been in the deeps, waiting to be released.
The Sundering is an opportunity to completely diminish many of the elements that "did not fit well" when brought in by enthusiastic but naive freelancers (or in this case, a staff writer). Not only is it essential to "tone down" such things in 5E, it's really going to be essential if they want 5E Realms to be a success. Otherwise, it's as I said earlier, it will just be a continuation of 4E, which failed.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 12 Aug 2013 15:59:54 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 21:41:41
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Well, I was working on this long dissertation about the topic but both xaeruudh and Therise pretty much explained it all well enough. There are so many things that need to change now. A short list...
1. I have problems with the phaerimm 'escaping' as they were better left as a mysterious threat. A lone specimen could have escaped here and there, but mostly they were better plot devices as 'behind the scenes' evils.
2. The same pretty much goes for the aboleth. They should have been left as a lurking threat with tendrils reaching far and wide.
3. The reclamation of Myth Drannor. I don't think they took this too far so it may be okay but will iterate here that it needs to remain a ruin for DMs to set adventures in. The elves present there need to be left as another faction within the city rather than rebuilding it.
4. Shade should not have become so powerful. Sembia alone should have enough power to throw off the yolk of Shade and if you include assistance from Cormyr/the Chosen/Harpers PLUS adventurers it should be no problem to send them away to lick their wounds. Perhaps back in the Shadow or perhaps not, but AWAY for awhile. Let them become a 'phantom menace' in 5e.
5. The desruction of Halruaa, Lantan, Luiren, Nimbral and whatever else I'm forgetting. Bring them back in some form or another. With the exception of Luiren, all of them were cultures unique to the Realms.
6. Thay needs to stop being a cesspool of undead and get back to what it was before. Tam needs to somehow be imprisoned (someone in another thread mentioned using those things he built for his ritual to do it) and some of the 'dead' zulkirs need to be less than dead. They need to reclaim their land and wipeout the majority of undead in the process SOMEHOW.
7. The timejump. Well there's nothing to be done about this now. But I want novels set in that time period so we can see what happened to some of the stories that were axed in the process of this STOOOOPID decision. To many plot threads were lost as a result of this.
I'm getting a bit heated atm so am gonna get off my soap box. Cheers. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 23:13:25
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Well, I was working on this long dissertation about the topic but both xaeruudh and Therise pretty much explained it all well enough. There are so many things that need to change now. A short list...
1. I have problems with the phaerimm 'escaping' as they were better left as a mysterious threat. A lone specimen could have escaped here and there, but mostly they were better plot devices as 'behind the scenes' evils.
2. The same pretty much goes for the aboleth. They should have been left as a lurking threat with tendrils reaching far and wide.
3. The reclamation of Myth Drannor. I don't think they took this too far so it may be okay but will iterate here that it needs to remain a ruin for DMs to set adventures in. The elves present there need to be left as another faction within the city rather than rebuilding it.
4. Shade should not have become so powerful. Sembia alone should have enough power to throw off the yolk of Shade and if you include assistance from Cormyr/the Chosen/Harpers PLUS adventurers it should be no problem to send them away to lick their wounds. Perhaps back in the Shadow or perhaps not, but AWAY for awhile. Let them become a 'phantom menace' in 5e.
5. The desruction of Halruaa, Lantan, Luiren, Nimbral and whatever else I'm forgetting. Bring them back in some form or another. With the exception of Luiren, all of them were cultures unique to the Realms.
6. Thay needs to stop being a cesspool of undead and get back to what it was before. Tam needs to somehow be imprisoned (someone in another thread mentioned using those things he built for his ritual to do it) and some of the 'dead' zulkirs need to be less than dead. They need to reclaim their land and wipeout the majority of undead in the process SOMEHOW.
7. The timejump. Well there's nothing to be done about this now. But I want novels set in that time period so we can see what happened to some of the stories that were axed in the process of this STOOOOPID decision. To many plot threads were lost as a result of this.
I'm getting a bit heated atm so am gonna get off my soap box. Cheers.
I agree with everything except the bolded. Shade was handled perfectly. The novels have made it clear that Shade overreached and now has too many enemies to stand much longer. With Mystra coming back, Mask coming back, and the Sundering possibly allowing Cyric to escape his prison, Shar will be too preoccupied to look after the Netherese.
However, Shade was an excellent villain for 4e. I never understand what it is that people want from Forgotten Realms villains. As soon as any villain comes to the forefront, a bunch of people start complaining that they should have been left more "shadowy" and "mysterious". We need villains for novels.
Also, Thay is awesome. I want Szass Tam to have more time to conquer surrounding nations. Don't get me wrong. Thay was great before. It has always been one of my favorite FR nations. However, it had grown stale. Zulkirs in other lands, plotting and picking up new secrets of magic, is a great story. I thought the Eminence of Araunt could conquer part of Thay, but that didn't work out too well. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 00:14:48
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Im curious, how was Shade 'handled perfectly?' Sembia alone is an economic powerhouse with a lot of clout. Granted, the merchant kingdom is very individualistic vs. Shade's strong, cohesive vision, but to say that Shade could do all that it has done as A LONE CITY vs. a powerful nation (plus inevitable resistance from other sources) is not a believable story to me. I read the books associated with Shade and 'handled perfectly' just doesn't come to mind for me. I don't mind the idea of Shade conquering Sembia, I just don't see it as probable without stronger support from other sources is all.
I will agree that there was a level of stagnation to some aspects of the Realms, so shaking things up a bit is quite welcome. Frankly, I prefer my campaigns to feel a bit more like George R.R. Martin's books...messy with a whole mess of evil politics. I'm just saying that could have been accomplished without all of the 'uber-powers' showing up all over the place. It felt forced and out of place for me. Also bear in mind that it isn't JUST Shade I have a problem with...it's all of these things combined over a short period of time that bugs me. Any one or two of them I could have lived with (well NOT the Spellplague changes). Combine all of the 'old evils' coming out along with the others and it's just TOO DARN MUCH all at once.
In the end, I think we should have been given better stories, with more thought put into the long-term consequences. Also bear in mind the Realms are a gaming world, where much should be left to individual DMs to pick and choose what they want to use...not forced to accept another's vision of it...unless it is Ed's vision as it was he who created this world and his vision that kept it strong for so many years. If he had been allowed to 'shake things up' we would have had a much better 4e experience IMO. As the saying goes, you don't try to fix what isn't broken. Tweak it? Sure. Fix an unbroken wheel? Absolutely not. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 00:17:40
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| I just realized the topic has been derailed. Apologies. I will stay off my soap box now. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 00:40:48
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am going to put my foot down, fish folks get to stay, you have mind flayers, derro, kuo tao , those shark things.
Hell, I know sharknado was insane idea , but I mean dammit we have were-sharks and whiny self indulgent drow.
You get your corner of the map, and I get mine. Just mine includes the entire map. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 00:48:30
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First, a clarification, just to be prudent: I have not read the novels about the aboleth. I got frustrated with Realms novels a while back because it seemed like they were being written for a third grade reading level. (Nothing wrong with a third grade reading level, as long as you're younger than 8.  ) I hope to catch up soon, but it isn't happening yet.
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
I never understand what it is that people want from Forgotten Realms villains. As soon as any villain comes to the forefront, a bunch of people start complaining that they should have been left more "shadowy" and "mysterious". We need villains for novels.
The short answer, speaking for myself, is that I want intelligence from villains. Intelligence facilitates challenges and realism. Without intelligence, there is no challenge and no realism. And intelligence dictates that a villain stay as far as possible away from the limelight.
The Harpers, as a whole, are never the good guys in the novels. Heroes are individuals. Likewise, villains are individuals, rather than entire organizations. We can have individual heroes and villains without the in-game citizens of the Realms knowing anything at all about the organizations these individuals represent. And the less everyone knows about them, the better they are as villains.
If the Harpers had a real headquarters; a physical place they all reported to and received orders from, they'd all be dead in a tenday. Twilight Hall is not a headquarters; we're told about it in a couple of sourcebooks by omniscient narrators, but within the game nobody knows for sure that Harpers are there; it's just a suspicion, and more pointedly only a small percentage of the Harpers are there at any particular time.
Contrast that with Zhentil Keep. It's true that not all Zhentarim walk through the Keep's gates on a constant basis, but a large percentage of them do and if you add in Darkhold, at least in the 2e timeframe that probably accounts for 90% of the active Zhentarim... in the published Realms. In Ed's home game the Zhentarim are an entirely different beast... they're smarter villains.
It's not quite the same situation with the Red Wizards. Many of them operate in and around Thay, but at least it's a whole country instead of one city or one building.
The point is that it's stupid to concentrate your assets in a small or widely known location. No matter who you are, someone somewhere can take you out.
And going back to the aboleth in particular... they can have no allies (ignoring skum and charmed slaves). They're unlike all other beings on Toril; it's not like the sahuagin or the aquatic elves are going to have their back. It's the aboleth against everyone.
Consider everyone in Faerun who might object to being dominated by aboleth. Larloch. Aumvor. The various Manshoons. Szass. Elminster. The Seven Sisters. The elven high mages left in the world. Whatever's left of the shade leadership. All the matron mothers in every drow city of the Underdark. Every illithid, beholder, dragon, sarrukh, and phaerimm in existence. All the unsung high level priests and mages around Faerun that nobody knows about. All of them, plus the PCs in each campaign. That's a ridiculous pile of enemies... who all now know (1) that the aboleth exist, (2) that they have powerful magic, (maybe 3) that they plan world domination and they care nothing for the survival of other races, and (4) exactly where to find them.
So my position is that the aboleth who are out in the open are now useless because they're dead. Furthermore the rest of them are questionable, because they had to be morons in order to make themselves known.
Villains only make sense when they're in the shadows, avoiding notice. As soon as they say "hey lookit me!" they're stupid, useless, and dead. |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 00:49:37
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am going to put my foot down, fish folks get to stay, you have mind flayers, derro, kuo tao , those shark things.
Hell, I know sharknado was insane idea , but I mean dammit we have were-sharks and whiny self indulgent drow.
You get your corner of the map, and I get mine. Just mine includes the entire map. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 01:40:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Xxiphu existed in the lore before 4e... it just should have stayed in the Underdark.
Where? I don't recall any pre-4E references to it.
Not directly, but Bruce Cordell's pre-4e novels -- like Darkvision and Stardeep -- were already laying the groundwork for the Abolethic Sovereignty and the threat of "ancient extraplanar evils" rising from the sea, so-to-speak.
IIRC Sage it's named in Stardeep. Now it's been over 5 years since I read that novel, so I could be wrong.
You're right. I couldn't immediately recall whether it was directly named. But I do remember the strong hints toward the Sovereignty coming into power in the plots of Bruce pre-4e novels. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 01:51:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
"Filling in" historical details, if it's done by someone who intends well but produces mediocre or poor quality lore, just should not happen.
That's fair enough.
But at the same time, I don't like the idea of rejecting mediocre designers [and even that's something I think is open to vast debate, as it really depends on subjectivity, rather than any objective interpretation], simply because one may feel that their prior work isn't up to Realms-standard.
I think this was equally one part a strength and failing of the 4e Realms. It attempted to give new designers new ground to create in the post-Spellplague. But at the same time, the limited amount of lore they could work with, I believe, hampered partly what new ideas they could introduce.
quote:
Additionally, any time by WotC spent on such a project, even if it's freelancer-hired work, will still be construed as spending time and money on the wrong thing: the failed past.
Again, that's you're opinion. And not wholly reflective of the general attitude toward how 4e was, and still has, been conducted.
quote:
While some may have enjoyed these novels, I didn't. I thought they were a clumsy way of trying to force in elements that were not "Realmsian" and actually detracted from the setting. Cynosure, for example, belongs in a setting more like Eberron. And "ancient extraplanar evils" might have worked if done well. But in this case, even that comes across as a heavily tacked on idea rather than something that has been in the deeps, waiting to be released.
I didn't see any real "forcing" of these elements into the Realms. The setting has a long and defined history of "elder extraplanar evils" trying to make incursions into the Realms proper -- from the uniquely great Far Realm Dragonking entity, to the "everyday" multitudes of illithids that have popped up in both sourcebooks and novels.
Why should the Abolethic Sovereignty be considered as anything different from those previous examples?
quote:
The Sundering is an opportunity to completely diminish many of the elements that "did not fit well" when brought in by enthusiastic but naive freelancers (or in this case, a staff writer). Not only is it essential to "tone down" such things in 5E, it's really going to be essential if they want 5E Realms to be a success. Otherwise, it's as I said earlier, it will just be a continuation of 4E, which failed.
If Wizards wants 5e to be a success, then they're going to have to acknowledge the strengths of ALL prior editions and incorporate them into what the post-Sundering Realms will become. Ignoring one edition for the sake of others just perpetuates the problem. It doesn't solve anything other than to alienate sections of the community. So that also means the few strengths of 4e should, I believe, be retained, even if they have to be reworked to fit in with what's coming next. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 01:54:10
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Im curious, how was Shade 'handled perfectly?' Sembia alone is an economic powerhouse with a lot of clout. Granted, the merchant kingdom is very individualistic vs. Shade's strong, cohesive vision, but to say that Shade could do all that it has done as A LONE CITY vs. a powerful nation (plus inevitable resistance from other sources) is not a believable story to me. I read the books associated with Shade and 'handled perfectly' just doesn't come to mind for me. I don't mind the idea of Shade conquering Sembia, I just don't see it as probable without stronger support from other sources is all.
Being an economic powerhouse is great if they were trying to control a trade war with Shade...but even then you laid out the contenders pretty clearly: The return of one of the most powerful cities of arguably the most powerful magical human society that ever existed in the Realms (who spent ~1700 years fighting off the malaugrym and worse while away from Faerun) vs. essentially a bunch of merchants.
I mean, they can hire all of the mercenaries they want, I don't think it would make Shade blink even. Seems like a simple conquest to me. |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 02:10:49
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Ugh weird double post....
Anyways.....
I would really love to see more books and the reestablishment of the Order of the Cerulean Sign , and make a gradual reclamining of the sea of fallen stars.
I honestly love Order of the Cerulean Sign, more then the Harpers. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 02:57:43
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<----Acknowledges Meerith's post, point well received.
@Silver: That would work for me. The OotCS was an interesting idea. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 03:08:55
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
If Wizards wants 5e to be a success, then they're going to have to acknowledge the strengths of ALL prior editions and incorporate them into what the post-Sundering Realms will become. Ignoring one edition for the sake of others just perpetuates the problem. It doesn't solve anything other than to alienate sections of the community. So that also means the few strengths of 4e should, I believe, be retained, even if they have to be reworked to fit in with what's coming next.
Blind adherence to a "principle of inclusion" without regard to quality will ultimately lead to poor product.
The very last thing I'd want to buy is a watered-down version of 4E sold with smiles and promises of fairness.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 03:38:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
If Wizards wants 5e to be a success, then they're going to have to acknowledge the strengths of ALL prior editions and incorporate them into what the post-Sundering Realms will become. Ignoring one edition for the sake of others just perpetuates the problem. It doesn't solve anything other than to alienate sections of the community. So that also means the few strengths of 4e should, I believe, be retained, even if they have to be reworked to fit in with what's coming next.
Blind adherence to a "principle of inclusion" without regard to quality will ultimately lead to poor product.
That's why I didn't suggest a "blind adherence" to a principle of inclusion. I said Wizards should try to acknowledge what worked within 4e, and go from there. Being "iffy" about what was introduced with 4e while favouring most everything else from prior editions will, ultimately, lead to the poor product you're referring to. The Realms is stronger because of it's history. Ignoring some for the sake of the rest isn't wholly indicative of the design methodology that has been used to build the Realms in the past, nor should it be adopted for the future either.
quote:
The very last thing I'd want to buy is a watered-down version of 4E sold with smiles and promises of fairness.
I don't see that being the case anyway, so no worries there. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 13 Aug 2013 03:39:15 |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 03:46:50
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| <_< even the sage is double posting. Call a MOD!! |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 03:54:05
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
That's why I didn't suggest a "blind adherence" to a principle of inclusion. I said Wizards should try to acknowledge what worked within 4e, and go from there.
But this is so very vague and subjective. Personally, I don't think anything worked that was added in 4E. What "worked" in 4E is also just as subjective as what didn't work. Isn't it?
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...from the uniquely great Far Realm Dragonking entity,
The Marco Volo series was one of the most ridiculous deus ex machina 2nd Edition adventures that the Realms has ever seen. The PCs are level 8 at the conclusion, and not one but three greater gods show up to put the Dragonking on ice. If you think this was "great" then I'm going to question your taste level. 
quote:
Being "iffy" about what was introduced with 4e while favouring most everything else from prior editions will, ultimately, lead to the poor product you're referring to. The Realms is stronger because of it's history. Ignoring some for the sake of the rest isn't wholly indicative of the design methodology that has been used to build the Realms in the past, nor should it be adopted for the future either.
Sage, no offense, but this sounds like what a priest would say to a congregation. The Realms is stronger for including 4E? I don't think that's true AT ALL, in any way. I think you're arguing to uphold a principle (inclusion), based on belief alone. I understand that this is what you believe. But if you want me to buy into it, I'll need some proof. Can you prove to me that the Realms is stronger with 4E's history?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 13 Aug 2013 04:55:03 |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 04:43:05
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I think this is getting a bit off topic into 4e vs. everything. I have strong opinions on that like most other posters but we're not going to be changing any minds here.
I feel that this thread is missing out on the untapped potential of Xxiphu (although I don't think the city is long for the world).
Remember, aboleths are otherworldly creatures with unfathomable motivations. Sure you can point to the sovereignty trilogy and say they were just trying to unleash the far realms into multiverse.
But were they? Again. Genius alien intelligences with inhuman motivations. Xxiphu is hanging there, seemingly in torpor. A number of earlier posters have complained that enemies should remain "shadowy". What could be more shadowy and open to a DM's interpretation than a city full of alien intelligences? They could be up to anything in there! And for a creative DM, that something could be far more horrible than unleashing madness on reality. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 11:16:53
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| I love Xxiphu, you can use Polyhedron version of Llurth Dreier if you don't have enough details. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 12:48:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Really, Sage? Why keep something that sits smack dab in the middle of the setting and does nothing, has no real defining motivations, and doesn't actually organize anything except for random "agents" that have no real defined purpose themselves?
It's not there to do anything in a story or a novel.
It's there for me to sit down in my home game and make it the big bad, or make it the secret benefactor for the party, or to do anything I want with it. It's motivations and purposes are for any given DM to decide for themselves. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 14:06:30
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Agreed.
Thats why - even though I personally have no use for it - it would be silly to just remove it, simply because it offends some folks. I can choose to ignore it.
HOWEVER, I do NOT want any more novels about it. Leave it 'shadowy', and its all good. If the 5e presentation is going to be anything like what I hope it will be (uncertain 3rd-person), then stuff like this really does fit the setting - its just another 'loose end' for some DMs to run with.
My one complaint with aberrations with 4e is that I feel they went out of their way to include EVERYTHING that 4e brought to the table - look at Neverwinter, for example. Its the kitchen-sink of 4e-isms. Not slamming that product - I rather liked it - but it did try to use everything available, which was a bit overwhelming, plot-wise.
Now look at PF-AP's; they have FOCUS. If something is not your cup-of-tea, you can just pass it up (Gothic Horror, for instance). 5eFR needs to do that - pick a flavor (for each product after the CG) and run with it. This 'go generic' approach to adventures is a bit... generic. It lacks substance. So if I buy an AP about Cormyr (or whatever), I don't want to see aberrations, shades, Red Wizards, spellplague stuff, etc, and a who's-who of the monster manual. For Neverwinter, it works... but don't repeat that - every adventure will start looking the same, very much unlike PF's AP's (which are brilliant). Paizo has managed to create a kitchen-sink setting without having its modules look kitchen-sink.
So I guess what I am saying is go ahead and create a Xxiphu adventure, and I'll just ignore it. I have no problem with that. If they tie it to too many other things I won't be able to, and that will just irk the crap out of me. FR is capable of having all flavors, but some should be 'compartmentalized'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Aug 2013 14:07:47 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 14:31:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
It's not there to do anything in a story or a novel.
It's there for me to sit down in my home game and make it the big bad, or make it the secret benefactor for the party, or to do anything I want with it. It's motivations and purposes are for any given DM to decide for themselves.
Hang on a moment. Ordinarily, I'd agree that something like Xxiphu would be an intriguing adventure hook. But in this case, it's not. People become extremely hesitant to do their own things with objects and characters that have been heavily used in novels.
To do anything significant with Xxiphu and the "Elder" now, you might contradict a very specific plan or future lore that is revealed in a future novel. Most of the trappings that go along with it are in the same category: the Order of the Cerulean Sign, the Far Manifold, those specific Star Elves.
It's what I consider a "spoiled" hook. It's not open enough, and things about it are not vague enough, for it to be a good adventure hook where I can do anything I want with it. This thing, and the Elder, do have a very specific purpose - and frankly, that story has been told.
Similarly - do you feel comfortable using the succubus "Arunika" that is heavily involved in Neverwinter? I don't. She's a tool of the novelists, and they have a very specific plan for her in the upcoming novels. As a DM, I won't touch that NPC. Far too heavily used.
Does anyone use the new Myth Drannor, except as a character point of origin?
What about Netheril itself, and the Princes? Sure, you might use a few personally-created agents from Netheril, but what about the actual characters that have been heavily used in novels? What about an adventure inside the city of Shade itself? It's presented as a monolithic thing - and we simultaneously know that authors have plans for it... yet there's not enough detail on Shade's inner workings to actually go visit it. Unless you develop it - and if you do, you run the risk of heavily conflicting with future novels.
If Xxiphu had been vaguely mentioned, but left hidden and undiscovered, with only hints and beliefs about it revealed in a novel, then it would be an excellent adventure hook. But in this case, it was fully used, fully exposed, and its motivations made perfectly clear. Those motivations were stopped, and so it just hangs there now - asleep and unusable. And I won't touch it because I'll never know if they plan on doing something very specific with it in the near future (either in a novel or some other "reveal"). So it's just a massive, totally spoiled adventure hook.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 13 Aug 2013 14:53:19 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 15:39:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
What "worked" in 4E is also just as subjective as what didn't work. Isn't it?
I'm not sure about that.
Most folk I talk to about 4e seem to agree that Returned Abeir was pretty cool, and one of the highlights of the post-Spellplague material.
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Sage, no offense, but this sounds like what a priest would say to a congregation. The Realms is stronger for including 4E? I don't think that's true AT ALL, in any way.
I'm not really saying it's stronger because of 4e. I'm merely illustrating the wisdom of moving forward and acknowledging that 4e did happen, and did have an impact on the Realms. Moving into 5e while skipping over the Spellplague Realms would achieve nothing more than angering fans of the material, and potentially threatening newer fans from coming into the setting -- especially if the prospect of learning the lore comes into play.
It's just repeating the same kind of problem that led to so much alienation when the 4e FRCG was first released. I want Wizards to break away from that cycle. Not repeat it again.
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I think you're arguing to uphold a principle (inclusion), based on belief alone.
It's not just based on belief. It's based partly on what limited tidbits Ed has shared with us about the 5e Realms. As well as the Sundering trailer itself. It's acknowledging the reintegration of the worlds -- an event that was at the very heart of the 4e Realms.
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I understand that this is what you believe. But if you want me to buy into it, I'll need some proof. Can you prove to me that the Realms is stronger with 4E's history?
This wasn't what I was saying, as I noted above.
But let me pose a new query. Can you prove to me that the Realms is stronger with 1e's history? What about 2e, or even 3e?
As I see it, the Realms is built on the history of ALL it's editions. So why should the inclusion of what worked with 4e be any different?
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 15:42:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
...from the uniquely great Far Realm Dragonking entity,
The Marco Volo series was one of the most ridiculous deus ex machina 2nd Edition adventures that the Realms has ever seen. The PCs are level 8 at the conclusion, and not one but three greater gods show up to put the Dragonking on ice. If you think this was "great" then I'm going to question your taste level.
Just to clarify, I applied the "great" qualifier to indicate a "great and powerful" otherworldly entity. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 16:17:02
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The Marco Volo adventures were a horrid series IMO...especially since the gods showed up at the end. Not that I mind a cameo from a god and all, but it was a bit of overkill.
Now just to clarify the debate you folks are having. Are you arguing for/against the 4e version of the GAME or the SETTING? The reason I ask it that sometimes things get lost in translation with strictly text-based discussions. What someone means (in their head) doesn't always translate well into text. I'm assuming you basically mean the setting but some of your points seem to refer to the game itself (but then maybe what's in MY MIND is getting lost in translation).  |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 16:41:25
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Its generally accepted that we will see some of the crunchy bits 4e brought to the table - it shows in the play-testing. Not everything was bad, and a couple of things were quite intuitive. I don't think anyone here is arguing on that count either way - some of us don't even play - we just want a great set of rules that is more reminiscent of past-editions then 4e was. I realize this is an over-generalization, and everyone here has their own opinions about specific points, but that's the overall feeling I get here lately. YMMV
When we say '4e' (or 5e, etc) around here - a site primarily dedicated to the lore - it usually means the FR setting itself. Once again, an over-generalization, but thats the best I can offer. Most of us didn't care for the new rules, but that wasn't the straw that broke the camel's back. Had that been the only change, I am sure most of would have come around and accepted the 4e rule set, in time.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 17:10:16
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
What "worked" in 4E is also just as subjective as what didn't work. Isn't it?
I'm not sure about that.
Logically, your argument doesn't hold water. You cannot have "the good" (or in your opinion, "what worked") in matters of taste be considered any more objective than "the bad". One end of a continuum cannot be objective and the other subjective.
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Most folk I talk to about 4e seem to agree that Returned Abeir was pretty cool, and one of the highlights of the post-Spellplague material.
This is merely anecdotal, and a smattering of testimonials. I can come up with just as many people who disagree and think that it all stinks.
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I'm not really saying it's stronger because of 4e. I'm merely illustrating the wisdom of moving forward and acknowledging that 4e did happen, and did have an impact on the Realms.
It's a principle and a belief, not wisdom. For it to be wisdom, it would have to be proven to be true, or at least widely supported by strong, valid, statistically verifiable results.
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It's not just based on belief. It's based partly on what limited tidbits Ed has shared with us about the 5e Realms. As well as the Sundering trailer itself. It's acknowledging the reintegration of the worlds -- an event that was at the very heart of the 4e Realms.
Advertising and testimonials, and personal feelings, cannot turn something subjective into something objective. You -believe- this is good, and it's advocated as a principle that others should follow. But that doesn't make it true.
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But let me pose a new query. Can you prove to me that the Realms is stronger with 1e's history? What about 2e, or even 3e?
Prove? No. I could say that the Realms would not exist without having had 1E, except in Greenwood's circle of friends. But I cannot prove that any edition's added history has strengthened (or weakened) the whole.
But then, I've -always- known that my personal opinion is just that. I'm not saying that what -I- alone believe is absolutely true. However, it is undeniable that the current designers have access to some data (perhaps polls, but certainly sales data) that indicated 4E was a flop. When something is a sales failure, undoubtedly they look to the things that caused it to flop - and the difference here vs. prior editions is the added 4E material.
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As I see it, the Realms is built on the history of ALL it's editions. So why should the inclusion of what worked with 4e be any different?
Even if you only go on the fact that it failed in sales, that's sufficient to diminish or "tone down" the added elements that made it unpopular and unpalatable. That's the difference.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 13 Aug 2013 17:10:43 |
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Xxiphu needs to go
