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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 20:46:05
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Xxiphu, the ancient abolethic plotdevice, needs to go back to wherever it came from, and out of Toril forever.
It really was an awful idea, didn't really work as Cthulhu-esque horror anyway, and needs to be ejected for 5E.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1632 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 21:37:46
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| I can't disagree more, loved the Aboleth city and it didn't disturb or blow anything up and didn't come from Abier so I see no reason for it to go. Its a fun weird city. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 22:28:54
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| I haven't read the books based on the Abolethic Sovereignty so I have to ask...just what is awful about it? I'm nominally inclined to agree with you just based on my desire for 'monstrous societies' to exist outside the standard Realms (e.g. in the Underdark, up in the mountains, etc). That is, AWAY, from the main cultures that make up the Realms. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 22:59:24
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I haven't read the books based on the Abolethic Sovereignty so I have to ask...just what is awful about it? I'm nominally inclined to agree with you just based on my desire for 'monstrous societies' to exist outside the standard Realms (e.g. in the Underdark, up in the mountains, etc). That is, AWAY, from the main cultures that make up the Realms.
How do I describe this, let's see. It's sort of a huge (we're talking really immensely large) city of ancient bloated aboleth in the shape of a gigantic column-tower-spire. The whole thing floats around, above the Sea of Fallen Stars. There's nothing even remotely interesting inside, except tons of large, ancient aboleth and their spawn. And they're "incomprehensibly evil" with "entirely alien motivations." Because: Far Realm insanity.
Except that their motivations are completely obvious and mundane: destroy the barrier preventing a massive invasion, enslave useful beings, torture other beings for amusement, and kill anything trying to stop them.
They were an attempt to introduce a Lovecraftian Chtulhu-esque enemy/faction to Faerun, but it's not remotely scary or mysterious except that they're, well, evil monster-fish. The novels are terrible, don't bother.
Needs to go ASAP.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 11 Aug 2013 23:15:51 |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
498 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 23:31:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
They were an attempt to introduce a Lovecraftian Chtulhu-esque enemy/faction to Faerun, but it's not remotely scary or mysterious except that they're, well, evil monster-fish. The novels are terrible, don't bother.
Needs to go ASAP.
With all the stuff they threw into the massive witch's cauldron of the Shattered Realms, the aboleths produced a unique reaction for me.
On one hand, they didn't torque me off the way a lot of things did - they were just sort of...there. Not really able to be used in any meaningful fashion.
On the other hand, I could not (and still cannot) figure out why the Powers That Be at Wizbro decided they needed to be included. They aren't interesting in the least. They're just sort of...there. Sort of like the sprig of parsley on your dinner plate that you never eat.
I haven't read the books, likely won't, and am not really worried about whether I do or not. The aboleths, like that sprig of parsley, can safely be tossed, and likely not missed in the least. Odds are that a lot of people won't even know that they were there, at least not beyond an academic understanding.
- OMH
Edit: Gyor, I believe I read somewhere that the Abolethic Sover-whatsis did in fact come from Abeir. I remember several comparisons to 'native Toril' aboleths, and how the two groups did not seem to 'mesh' ('natives' lacking anything above and beyond their own individual agendas). I'll see if I can find the text in question. |
Edited by - Old Man Harpell on 11 Aug 2013 23:35:57 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 23:35:09
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| I suppose something like that needed to be built into the Realms from its inception. As it is, it's really not what Ed envisioned when he created this wonderful playground he shared with us. That said, I rather like the aboleth and other Lovecraftian concepts...but it needs to be ELSEWHERE in the Realms. I think it would have been better if it was 'discovered' that they had taken over an island (or chain of them) somewhere outside the main Realms...to give DM's a focal point for that type of theme IF they wanted it. Having looked into it, it's in the Sea of Fallen Stars...right in the MIDDLE of everything, so ya, I'd say it needs to go, be moved, or sink below the sea again so that the threat is still there. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2013 : 23:50:22
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I don't mind Lovecraftian stories in the Realms every so often. It's just that this Abolethic stuff was really badly executed.
I've seen DMs use a single illithid to create absolutely terrifying adventure with themes of horror and insanity. Greenwood's also had a number of other monstrous things around in the Realms that are entirely horrifying and spooky when they're used properly.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 00:00:16
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I don't mind a bit of Mythos here and there, but the Abolethic Sovereignty was far too obtuse a tool (here be otherworldly beings) for the purposes they wanted. As horrific and alien as the aberrations are, they're still more effective as beings just outside the corner of our perception. Then the rarer appearances by the whole creature are that much more effective. There needs to be build up, few reveals, and a decent pay off.
I found Eberron's Dreaming Dark and the quori to be a much more effective execution of the concept (probably my favorite D&D use of an active aberrant menace with their own empire), as was the use of Aboleths in Golarion (used sparingly enough to preserve some sense of awe and horror) and the Wasted West in Midgard (where unleashing just a fraction of the realms beyond devastated an entire region, threatened the world, and even the supposed victory of the mortal world is really a tenuous postponement).
Then again, these components were built into the setting and play a major role (domino effect) for much of the lore and conflicts that follows.
Maybe Xxiphu could have been better integrated as a phaerimm derivative, possibly tied to (located in) the Spellplague/Plaguewrought Lands, emanated as Spellscars, the weave also acting as a barrier against them. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1632 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 00:43:12
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No Aboleths are native to toril, Aboleths come from somewhere else like most Aberrants.
What's interesting to me is that one of the Batrachi Empires was a Soveriegnty Ruled by Aboleths and I see interesting things things they could do with that. And having read the novels it seems clear that the Soveriegnty is not native to Toril.
I do admit the Soveriegnty needs tweeking to create a greater air of mystery about thier adgenda, but that's doable. The Soveriegnty has its supporters like me and it didn't displace anything so thier is no reason to remove it. It floats up in the sky so it need not interfere in anything else in the realms except what you or authors wish.
Also remember the Soveriegnty does have agents all over the place, insane creepy agents, but they have them including in neverwinter. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 00:46:01
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| I agree DW, Eberron did a far better job integrating the theme, but then it was done so from it's creation as a campaign. The Sovereignty is just another example of a new culture thrust into the Realms (along with Imaskar and Shade). They were largely just dumped into the Realms with little to no GOOD reason...all while eliminating uniquely Realmsian cultures at the same time (Halruaa, Nimbral, Lantan). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1632 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 00:47:24
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No Aboleths are native to toril, Aboleths come from somewhere else like most Aberrants.
What's interesting to me is that one of the Batrachi Empires was a Soveriegnty Ruled by Aboleths and I see interesting things things they could do with that. And having read the novels it seems clear that the Soveriegnty is not native to Toril.
I do admit the Soveriegnty needs tweeking to create a greater air of mystery about thier adgenda, but that's doable. The Soveriegnty has its supporters like me and it didn't displace anything so thier is no reason to remove it. It floats up in the sky so it need not interfere in anything else in the realms except what you or authors wish.
Also remember the Soveriegnty does have agents all over the place, insane creepy agents, but they have them including in neverwinter. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 02:53:32
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The stupidity of big events/changes (like this flying city of aboleth, and like the return of Shade and the rebuilding of Myth Drannor) is that they have so much potential when they're in the planning stage, and they flop so badly upon execution.
The phaerimm worked as long as they were hinted at but left undeveloped... as soon as they came up to the surface and started fighting the elves of Evereska they became stupid and therefore useless. Cyric would have worked if he'd been doomed to eternally plotting and second-guessing his plots, constantly getting ahead of himself and instigating things but never achieving any of his major objectives; as soon as you let him win he was broken. The Zhentarim could be awesome if they weren't so visible, so predictable, so cue evil laughter. When the Suits in the corner offices say "hey, yea, go ahead and make this happen" ... it will flop.
The enemy that you can't see is more terrifying/intriguing than the one you can see. Once the evil plot succeeds, there's nowhere else to go with it. And once they're out in the open either someone will destroy them (because the good guys always win) or at the very least everyone can see them and what they're up to, and either way their plot potential is reduced. Derp.
The good guys are out in the open, the bad guys are hidden in the shadows. This creates challenges for the good guys because their deeds and vulnerabilities are out for all to see, while nobody knows the real strength or activities or ideally even the precise location of the bad guys. It works that way, and it doesn't work the other way.
Obviously all just my opinion, and I've been up on a soap box lately.  |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 12 Aug 2013 02:56:18 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 03:19:55
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Old Man Harpell pretty-much summed up my opinion of the Abolethic Sovereignty... I was like, "So? And then what?
I've warmed-up to Lovecraftian crap just a tad (thanks to both PF and a series I recently read), but in FR, I can't really care either way. If it stays, I will probably never use it, but if it goes, I will definitely not miss it.
I also totally agree with xaeyruudh's sentiments: so many potentially great ideas, just orphaned and left to fend for themselves. I really am starting to believe there is no such thing as a bad idea, just a piss-poor execution. As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing that 4e brought to the table that I don't think can't be salvaged and re-worked to the betterment of the setting. I may not be a big fan of Cthulhu-stuff, but others are, so whatever - it won't hurt me if it sticks around. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 03:30:10
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The thing about barking mad insanity -of the Xxiphu variety- is that it's just not interesting. There's usually no complexity to it at all except for "end the world in flames!" or "feed all life to the master!" which can be used once but it becomes rather one-note after that. With Xxiphu, it hangs in the air with storms surrounding it. There are no complex plots, no weird but coordinated goals, it's just there. Doing nothing except sleeping. And if you try to set foot inside (guess what, no map ever made), it's instant death unless your party is epic. If you do have an epic party, you enter and battle a lot of fish, for what?
It's a terrible addition to the Realms because it would be a terrible addition to any setting the way it is.
Sure, there are a few "agents" out in the world doing things. But to what end? One of them is in Neverwinter, and she raised a small cult that sort of didn't really know what it was worshiping and ended up being used by a novel writer anyway.
It's bad because it's the exact opposite of how interesting villains and groups have been developed in prior editions. The Red Wizards were a net of complexity, sometimes with deep and partially conflicting interests among their higher-ups. The Zhentarim was a masterful example of a group with its fingers into everything... politics, religion, business, smuggling, everything. Even an impossible-to-defeat enemy like Larloch was a billion times more complex and interesting.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 12 Aug 2013 03:31:15 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 03:53:58
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I'm not comfortable with removing wholesale 4e elements that were introduced. That's kind of what led many to perceive the wrongful and hasty removal of pre-4e elements during the Spellplague in the first place.
I think there's definitely a place for Xxiphu. I'm just not sure that it needs to be so prominent. I've often thought that the Cthulhu-esque elements of the D&D, like the Far Realm and mind flayers, work best as "hinted at ancient otherworldly evils, that only rarely manifest themselves on Toril."
I think that, if I were to bring Xxiphu into my Realms, I'd kind of run it like the Far Realm-like outer place of Xoriat in EBERRON. It's such a strange and unusual place full of pseudo-natural nasties, that it only rarely comes into coterminous/conjunctive union with the Material Plane of Eberron.
Perhaps Xxiphu should've worked in the same way in the official Realms. An abolethic-dominated society that only slowly started forming a beachhead on Toril -- but still couldn't properly manifest fully. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 04:09:44
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Really, Sage? Why keep something that sits smack dab in the middle of the setting and does nothing, has no real defining motivations, and doesn't actually organize anything except for random "agents" that have no real defined purpose themselves?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 05:19:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Really, Sage? Why keep something that sits smack dab in the middle of the setting and does nothing, has no real defining motivations, and doesn't actually organize anything except for random "agents" that have no real defined purpose themselves?
Because I know that Wizards can [and probably should] rely on the creative efforts of freelance designers and writers who have, at one time or another, expressed interest in working to further mesh these kinds of odd new elements into the existing Realmslore. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 05:21:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Really, Sage? Why keep something that sits smack dab in the middle of the setting and does nothing, has no real defining motivations, and doesn't actually organize anything except for random "agents" that have no real defined purpose themselves?
Because I know that Wizards can [and probably should] rely on the creative efforts of freelance designers and writers who have, at one time or another, expressed interest in working to further mesh these kinds of odd new elements into the existing Realmslore.
Depends on the freelancers.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 05:37:04
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| I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other. However, I believe that there already are several Aboleth nations in the Underdark without randomly placing one on the surface. I think that they are covered in the 3e Underdark supplement. It isn't like removing Xxiphu actually removes a plot device from the setting. The other Aboleth stuff is still there and has been for awhile. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
Edited by - Tarlyn on 12 Aug 2013 05:59:37 |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 05:39:44
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| I agree with both sentiments. They are just kinda there. But lets see if they can do something cool with it rather than chucking it out. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 06:19:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
It isn't like removing Xxiphu actually removes a plot device from the setting. The other Aboleth stuff is still there and has been for awhile.
Exactly. Xxiphu is really just left-behind novel detritus.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 06:57:33
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| Xxiphu existed in the lore before 4e... it just should have stayed in the Underdark. |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 08:04:19
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<-< I liked the books, I woulnd't mind more that dealt with the tower and solving the story.
<-< then again, was sort of nice to see something fully new between a "dream" mage, and adult realities of a drug addicted warlock.
As far as a reader (no clue as a roleplayer), I want it to stay . |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 08:28:46
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| Besides in wotsq I only had experience with the aboleth in the under dark box set. Which I liked alot. I didn't like them in liriel's adventures because I felt that that aboleth died too easily .I mean for crying out loud aboleth are suppose to be even more powerful than mindflayers!it doesn't show. |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 11:25:38
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I want it to stay. When handled well, the aboleths are actually interesting antagonists. Besides, the genasi need to be kept busy. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 12:15:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I can't disagree more, loved the Aboleth city and it didn't disturb or blow anything up and didn't come from Abier so I see no reason for it to go. Its a fun weird city.
Indeed... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 12:58:14
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Xxiphu existed in the lore before 4e... it just should have stayed in the Underdark.
Where? I don't recall any pre-4E references to it. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 13:11:13
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| As a reader frankly I found the aboleths to be quite an interesting addition to the realms. If more attention was given to them they have the potential to become a very unique and dark threat to the realms. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 14:15:30
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My biggest problem with Aboleths stems from my total and complete dislike of them since their introduction - they looked like very silly catfish to me, and not at all scarey. The fact that they could not even leave their little underground ponds meant they were no real threat at all. Unfortunately, that impression has stayed with me for about 30 years...
HOWEVER, looking at the recent concept art, I have to admit I find that pic both interesting and kinda scarey. More of that, and I'm willing to let them live in my Realms. 
EDIT:
The one downside to keeping the new lore about them is the name itself - when I say "Xxiphu" out loud, it sounds like "sea food", which is a TERRIBLE pun (especially if it was intentional).
"What do you want to eat tonight? Shou?"
"Nahhh... I'm tired of Shou."
"How about Zakharan Shwarma?"
"No, that gave me the drizzles the last time I ate it."
"Sembian flat tomato pie?"
"Had that for lunch..."
Okay, what do you want?"
"I'm in the mood for Xxiphu."
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Aug 2013 14:25:14 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 14:27:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Where? I don't recall any pre-4E references to it.
On the last page of the 3e Underdark book. It's a "large aboleth enclave" accessed through a tunnel at the back of a lowerdark cave. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 15:04:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The one downside to keeping the new lore about them is the name itself - when I say "Xxiphu" out loud, it sounds like "sea food", which is a TERRIBLE pun (especially if it was intentional).
The first picture I saw of them was the 3e Monster Manual, which is better than the b/w one but the takehome message is pretty much the same... you don't want to touch one, but they're stuck in the water.
And I would suggest "shee-foo" for the pronunciation, except that I just watched Kung Fu Panda again recently so that has its own weirdness.
Getting back to the topic, I can totally see how the end product of the 4e development (the giant flying tower of water) would turn a lot of people off. But I'm sure it was a great novel or trilogy or whatever it was, and a lot of people really enjoy novels... and if the story works for you then it's easier to swallow the end result.
Same probably goes for the return of Shade. It was a good idea to pick up the old story lead and have Shade attempt to reconstitute a Netherese empire in the Realms, but wrongheaded to allow them to succeed. Still, someone came up with a logical-enough set of factors to get readers on board with it (basically just make the leaders omnipotent) and so we have Netheril back in the Realms. Some love it, some hate it, and my "thing" is just that it should have been done as a campaign option so that those who love it can have it and those who hate it don't have to use it. Making everything canon, particularly the disruptive things, bites because everybody's stuck with it forever whether it's ultimately good for our Realms or not. Ignoring it involves massively redacting all future plot developments that touch it, so yes and no it cannot be ignored.
Xxiphu will be the same. The aboleth agenda to take over the world: good. Their emergence into the open: stupid. Giant floating column of water: unRealmsian. Except that the 4e development deliberately turned the definition of the Realms inside out so that things like this would fit in, so... cheap shot imo, but I understand that some like it. It's not even about whether or not the 4e Realms is an appealing setting... it's about warping an existing and well-loved setting into something else. 4e should have had its own setting, where everything could be created fresh and nothing would be destroyed in the process. Meh, another dead horse begging to be beaten.
The addition of the aboleth agents to various cities, and some of the potential plots they might instigate are great, but we should have gotten that without the giant floating water thing. The aboleth were a better threat when nobody knew about them. Now everything in Faerun knows about them, and their mystique and potential are diminished. Regardless of the quality of the writing, that's an undesirable result.
2 grognardy coppers, with apologies for any derailment of the thread. |
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Xxiphu needs to go
