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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 20:28:45
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Now I know this is the consequence of views of putting modern day morals into fantasy, but something that has always irritated me is , it seems the realms alot of foster parents have sex with those they adopt....
Mirt the moneylender raised asper up as a child, then end up being his wife.
Elimister raised some of the seven sisters up as a foster parent of sorts, and then ended up having sex with them.
Just something that irritates me, and pointing out for not good reason other then to vent.
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 20:44:07
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| I get what you're getting at, but there is nary a whiff in any of those situations of abuse or coercion or compulsion magical or otherwise, or even that the relationship which developed was the man's idea. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 21:12:42
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Technically most of the old world pantheons and legends of old (including many of the monetheistic ones which forms the foundations for modern morals) were inbred, having married and procreated with their siblings and/or sires or otherwise close relations.
Things get weird when immortal characters live several life times worth, when they know people as self-thinking adults for far more years than as children.
These Realms characters were foster guardians and blood relations are non-existent (or at least so far removed as to be questionable).
As for El situation, the Simbul (who he has the most prominent relationship with) was not amongst the seven sisters he raised. Can't speak for 4E revelations.
Considering the Realms has thousands of developed characters, this is a very minor issue.
Modern morals are also rather relative, just ask Woody Allen. Despite his questionable choices, he is still a noted director. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4703 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 21:18:43
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That is not the norm from all indications, Chosen though because of extended life tend to go a little insane as will according to Ed.
Foster child sometimes are relatives, however in the Realms the cases you site had no blood relationship. The Chosen though had a magical one, in part they where all Mystra (which in some ways could be looked at at having a relationship with just yourself). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 04 Aug 2013 21:19:37 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 21:19:31
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Some of the El novels suggest that he and Storm will become an item...and I'm fine with that. As DW just pointed out, most of those who are long lived see them as free-thinking adults moreso than children. As for Mirt I see what you're getting at a bit more. However, I think Asp was the exception rather than the rule with him.
You also have to realize that the view of sexuality in the Realms is a bit more liberal than many RW cultures. I may be wrong but I think Ed may be a man who feels that love can be found is 'strange' places. Heh, if I recall correctly, Einstein fell in love with a cousin of his (and later married her after he divorced his first wife). Just goes to show you, one person's  is another person's  . |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 22:54:16
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| I repeat what Ed answered to me years ago on the mailing list when I asked about Elminster and Storm and he made it clear that Elminster and Storm have never had sex. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 23:25:04
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| "Had never had sex" is past tense. In the book I'm reading now it's seems to me that it will change in the near future (5e). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 23:48:02
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Ah, well, don't know about that since I don't have that book. Which book is it anyhow?
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
"Had never had sex" is past tense. In the book I'm reading now it's seems to me that it will change in the near future (5e).
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2013 : 23:59:14
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Elimister raised some of the seven sisters up as a foster parent of sorts, and then ended up having sex with them.
Which ones?
I understand he didn't raise the Simbul, and they of course were lovers, but who else among the Seven bedded Elminster? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 00:14:08
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| In Hell, showed atleast from what I saw, many images and memories of interactions with a few of the sisters naked in bed with him. I don't have my book near me to pull names out right now. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 00:42:22
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| Kuje: The book is El Must Die. In it the reader gets a glimpse of Storm's personal thoughts...she wants more than friendship with him. At the end of Bury El Deep (I think that's the one) El and Storm are embracing. Of course, that doesn't mean that they are lovers...they were celebrating the return of Mystra after all. I'm just making an educated guess but I think the evidence suggests they will eventually become lovers. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 01:09:28
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Ah, thanks.
Well, as I said, I can't comment on those since I've not read them.
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Kuje: The book is El Must Die. In it the reader gets a glimpse of Storm's personal thoughts...she wants more than friendship with him. At the end of Bury El Deep (I think that's the one) El and Storm are embracing. Of course, that doesn't mean that they are lovers...they were celebrating the return of Mystra after all. I'm just making an educated guess but I think the evidence suggests they will eventually become lovers.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 01:11:02
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I'm just making an educated guess but I think the evidence suggests they will eventually become lovers.
I got the sense from those novels that she's been quietly in love with Elminster for a long time.
She's the Chosen that can't (for whatever reason) bear children, yes? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 01:29:10
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That's right, she couldn't unless Mystra wills it, like she's done with all of the Chosen. It was another topic that Ed answered, maybe during that same mailing list discussion. :) But Storm specifically is/was barren.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I'm just making an educated guess but I think the evidence suggests they will eventually become lovers.
I got the sense from those novels that she's been quietly in love with Elminster for a long time.
She's the Chosen that can't (for whatever reason) bear children, yes?
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36989 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 01:49:45
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Something to keep in mind with Elminster and the Seven: When you live for half of forever, are you going to want to share your affections with someone that you'll see grow old and die while you continue on, or are you going to want to share your affection with someone you've known for literally centuries and that you know will still be there for you centuries from now?
And this is only two examples of foster parents hooking up with the kids they raised. That's hardly a lot. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Aug 2013 01:50:23 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6689 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 02:24:02
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My understanding is that Elminster has only been sexually involved with the Simbul, whom he did not raise as a "foster child".
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36989 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 05:43:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Didn't he have a dalliance with Alustriel? I seem to recall something of the sort. Or it might have been Dove. One of those two, anyway, IIRC. And he's had relationships with several of his students down the centuries, including one drow lass!
To be fair, there's a difference between a teacher having a relationship with a student, and someone having a relationship with another adult that they raised from childhood. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Learned Scribe
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 05:49:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Didn't he have a dalliance with Alustriel? I seem to recall something of the sort. Or it might have been Dove. One of those two, anyway, IIRC. And he's had relationships with several of his students down the centuries, including one drow lass!
To be fair, there's a difference between a teacher having a relationship with a student, and someone having a relationship with another adult that they raised from childhood.
Can someone say "scandal"...student-teacher relations never end good... |
"Sweet water and light laughter until next we meet." - traditional elven farewell
Please forgive any spelling and grammer errors, as my android touch-screen phone has no spellchecker. If I do make a grammer mistake, please let me know and I'll try to fix it.
New laptop, still trying to sort my "scrolls" on its shelves...and when will this cursed thing stop doing things I tell it not to? |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 06:30:43
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| Teacher-student? I believe two of my professors are married to former students of theirs. Key word being former. Since it's a grad/prof program, the students are in their early/mid-twenties when this occurs. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 11:06:22
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| Don´t apply moral standards based on world religions. Natural attraction and resulting events are part of nature and the realms with it´s denizens are also prone to every whim nature forces on us. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 12:41:52
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The said examples by the OP are hardly a lot to consider this practice the norm in the Realms. Though it is worth mentioning that it is not that rare either.
Now, I would be shocked if Aoth had sex with Jhesri. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 13:22:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The said examples by the OP are hardly a lot to consider this practice the norm in the Realms. Though it is worth mentioning that it is not that rare either.
Now, I would be shocked if Aoth had sex with Jhesri.
Yup, that would be a disturbing situation indeed. Ew...
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 13:54:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The said examples by the OP are hardly a lot to consider this practice the norm in the Realms. Though it is worth mentioning that it is not that rare either.
Now, I would be shocked if Aoth had sex with Jhesri.
Yup, that would be a disturbing situation indeed. Ew...
Now’s too early and too shocking for that. But perhaps, with proper exposition and Richard’s deft, convincing writing, it may happen in the very far future. Aoth’s immortal, or almost like it. Jhesri’s unique affinity to fire may have granted her near-immortal status as well (she’s practically a walking conflagration now). Long-lived people tend to choose lovers of their kind. And note that Aoth’s lovers, past and present, have fire in their veins (a priestess of Kossuth and a priestess of Amaunator).
It would still be weird though. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 15:13:34
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Since there is nothing wrong with that sort of behavior in The Realms, it is not 'wrong' to them.
There is an old movie called Hawaii (1966) that delves into this sort of thing very well - in Hawaii, there was no such thing as 'incest'. Although dated, the movie is worth a look-see. Its considered a Drama, but it had its inadvertent comedic moments, and it got into the problems of 'conflicting cultural morality' (the joke was, when you told people something was wrong, it just made them want to do it all the more). It also got into a fairly good argument about sin with the Hawaiian Queen (who was married to her own brother). When the missionary told her "its only a sin once you know its wrong", her answer was, "then why you tell me?"
Also, it was a fairly common practice in the late 1800's- early 1900's for a stepfather to marry his stepdaughter after the mother had 'an accident' (amazing how many women fell down flights of stairs back then). Some of these girls were as young as ten - you could get married at that age back then with parental permission (which they obtained from their stepfather, of course).
Watching a lot of early American history lately, and its pretty amazing how the 'puritanical' Settlers were pretty damn immoral by today standards. Not only did men in their middle years constantly marry girls in their young (and even pre-)teens, but they thought nothing of owning other people (slaves), whipping, stealing land from native peoples, murdering others for their property, etc, etc...
A forty year old man who had a 13-year-old wife was admired by other men just a hundred years ago. In many cases, these girls were cousins and even nieces of these men - Looking at The Realms through the lens' of today's morality is just so much worse.
I am not advocating this behavior, merely pointing-out that at other times in our own history, FR 'morality' would be considered fairly tame. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Aug 2013 15:18:37 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2013 : 19:42:59
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My understanding is that inbreeding rarely has negative physiological consequences in the first or second generation, because the parents rarely both carry the recessive genes that lead to birth defects. It generally takes multiple, successive generations of inbreeding before the gene pool faces a significant risk of bringing together parents who both have the nasty recessive genes.
This is why animal breeders get away with regularly inbreeding their own stock for several generations, and then occasionally bringing in outsourced stock for some outbreeding.
Therefore, the traditional RW aversion to human incest and inbreeding seems overstated and excessive to the actual dangers, involved. It'd a hyperconservative restriction, just to err on the safe side.
In a world with magic, people might not be so adverse to human incest and inbreeding if they could just take their inbred children to a healer for a quick fix. It might simply be seen as a matter of an ailment, rather than as a moral misstep.
If that were the case, then there might be very little ill will toward intimate foster families or teacher-student bondings when the parties involved are not even physically related, at all. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Small Issue with realm morals....
