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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jul 2013 : 19:45:02
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So I came to discover awhile back that Elsir Vale (from Red Hand of Doom and the Scales of War adventure path in Dungeon magazine) is really Channath Vale (down in the Shaar). Everything lines up nearly perfectly with the 3e FR campaign map, but for some strange reason (to make it more generic?) they choose to rename a bunch of stuff - most entirely different, while others very similar (The Wyrmbones = The Wyrmsmoke Mountains, for example).
So, should we consider any of this FR canon, or 'apocryphal', or just a case of 'uninspired geography' with no actual FR relation?
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Jul 2013 19:46:43
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Lothlos
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2013 : 00:20:12
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There is a section on page 8 of the Red Hand of Doom that specifically tells DM's where to put Elsir Vale in the Forgotten Realms. For me that eliminates it as just a case of 'uninspired geography' with no actual FR relation
On the other hand that same location on the 4e map of the FR is part of the Shaar Desolation caused by the Spellplague.
The first Scale of War adventure links the events in Red Hand of Doom with the Scales of War adventure path. On page 11 of Dungeon Magazine #156 it states that they have put the events in the Scales of War a decade after those in Red Hand of Doom. The Spellplague will wipe the area out for 100 years or more after these events occur, depending on what year you set the Red Hand of Doom in. Thus timeline wise the events of the Scales of War do not contradict or conflict with the existing FR canon of the Spellplague.
On the other hand if all 4th edition material has to be post Spellplague then you would have a conflict in canon if you considered both the Scales of War and the Spellplague as part of the Forgotten Realms canon.
I would therefore say that Elsir Vale is definitely not a case of 'uninspired geography' with no Forgotten Realms relation (see above). I do not believe the rule set is canon specific. In real time the 4th Edition Rules and the Spellplague coincide. On the other hand I can use any set of rules to run a campaign set at anytime in the Forgotten Realms without changing the canon itself (ie. I can keep the Spellplague and use 2nd Edition Rules if I wish). Since the timeline for the events that take place during the Scales of War are not in conflict with existing canon that I know of (just names on a map) and it has direct ties to the Realms. I would say consider it canon. |
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.
-J.R.R. Tolkien
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Edited by - Lothlos on 22 Jul 2013 00:43:08 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 15:20:25
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Thanks for the input.
Problem is, they also included notes on where to place it in GH and Eberron, didn't they? There were several other super-modules that used this approach; Night Below leaps to mind.
However, AFAIK, in the past no generic module ever 'stole' a piece of terrain from an established setting before. The only thing that really makes this confusing for me is that they changed the names of all the geographic features (just to make it generic). Had they left all the names the same, I would definitely consider it canon.
And then there is the Nentir Vale, which is supposedly somewhere North (and probably East) of Elsir Vale - that would place that Non-setting sub-setting within FR as well... but then we have the map of Nerath, which shows the Nentir vale but NOT the Elsir Vale (and is a hodgepodge of canon D&D settings, which really confuses the heck out of everyone).
Funny thing is, I've seen people who wanted to connect the two - and all linked adventures - place Nentir Vale West of Elsir Vale, and on at least one homebrew map I saw it would be right on the SE edge of the Border Kingdoms, which is a damn good placement for the Nentir Vale (I believe someone was pushing for The Border Kingdoms being the 5e 'start area'). If they want 5e material to not 'rock the boat', then an area like that, with little in the way of an established timeline, would be perfect. It would be a shame to lose either of those sub-settings in 5e - it would be better if the 5eFR team found a way of incorporating it all.
And then maybe we would finally get the 'Guide to Nentir Vale' that was promised - I am hoping it wasn't really canceled, just postponed to be a 5e product.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Jul 2013 15:30:12 |
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Lothlos
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 17:02:55
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quote:
Problem is, they also included notes on where to place it in GH and Eberron, didn't they?
Yes they did.
quote:
Funny thing is, I've seen people who wanted to connect the two - and all linked adventures - place Nentir Vale West of Elsir Vale, and on at least one homebrew map I saw it would be right on the SE edge of the Border Kingdoms, which is a damn good placement for the Nentir Vale (I believe someone was pushing for The Border Kingdoms being the 5e 'start area'). If they want 5e material to not 'rock the boat', then an area like that, with little in the way of an established timeline, would be perfect. It would be a shame to lose either of those sub-settings in 5e - it would be better if the 5eFR team found a way of incorporating it all.
And then maybe we would finally get the 'Guide to Nentir Vale' that was promised - I am hoping it wasn't really canceled, just postponed to be a 5e product.
I agree with you about not wanting to lose the sub-settings in 5e and where they would fit in the Realms. I am just beginning to learn to use CC3 to make maps, but I would be interested in seeing a combined map for my homebrew world. I would also like to see the 'Guide to Nentir Vale' as a 5e product. |
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.
-J.R.R. Tolkien
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2013 : 03:45:48
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| I think RHoD was going to be a Realms product, then it got switched. That map is to perfect. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2013 : 16:08:04
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Well, if they do decide to go that route - making Elsir Vale FR canon come 5e (and perhaps the excellent Nentir Vale as well) - that means the Shaar has become a hotbed of Half-dragon activity. It could be a very interesting development to have many of the common monster varieties get an upgraded treatment in that region (all sorts of draconic variants).
They could also easily fudge the map names at this point - a century (and RSE) have gone by - plenty of time for people to rename things. They could also just as easily say that places have both an 'official' name (the old 1e/2e/3e ones), and what those locales are known as locally.
I've personally stuck Nentir Vale under the High Forest (a near-perfect fit), but if they do decide to make the Border Kingdoms the new start-area (not a bad idea at all - it nice and 'neutral', on so many levels) come 5e, they can easily place Nentir vale around there as well. Something like THIS. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jul 2013 16:08:53 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 17:01:37
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When Spawn of Tiamat were introduced in Monster Manual 4, they left a cheeky little hint that the events in Red Hand of Doom were actually happening in Faerun.
quote:
Rumors have surfaced of hobgoblins and spawn massing around the Rathgaunt Hills in the southern Shaar. Their appearance could indicate that the Dragonfall War is about to spill over into Faerūn.
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When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
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Elsir Vale
