Author |
Topic |
|
Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2013 : 10:24:50
|
Hello... A couple of questions about the Demi Liches
1) Can they remove their magic immunity, to cast beneficial spells on themselves? And likewise receive healing (inflict) spells from other subordinates?
2) If a level 25 wizard were to cast Shapechange and transform into a demi lich, would he/she receive or retain the "Trap the Soul" [SU] ability? And what would the save DC be?
3) Also during a said Shapechange, would the caster receive the +10 int, wis, cha that a normal lich gets when becoming a demi lich?
Thanks!
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2013 : 17:37:43
|
This is all just my take on it. I don't have most of my books with me at the moment so I don't know page numbers to back it up.
1. Maybe. I think it was 2nd edition where the idea of "voluntarily failing a save" was officially talked about. Not sure if Magic Resistance had the same mechanic, but you should (with DM approval at least) be able to ignore your own magic resistance when voluntarily casting magic on yourself. However, lowering your own magic resistance (or negating immunity) to let another creature cast something on you is more iffy.
2. Maybe, at least in 3.5e. Shapechange changes your Type, and gives you all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the assumed form. The possible issue is that you cannot shapechange into the likeness of a unique creature. You can become a "generic" demilich, but not a particular one. So you wouldn't gain the abilities developed by an individual as part of its path to becoming a demilich... but you'd gain everything listed under demilich in the Monster Manual. Also, you would need to be "familiar" with demiliches, which --depending on the DM-- may be a difficult prerequisite.
3. Yes, if it's part of becoming a demilich.
Undoubtedly others will have more technical answers, based on edition. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 19 Jul 2013 17:42:37 |
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2013 : 22:24:05
|
Given that becoming a lich of any kind requires the creation of a phylactery to contain your soul, I'd be inclined to make a ruling that you can't shapechange into a lich or demi-lich because you don't have the proper vessel. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2013 : 22:24:11
|
Thanks...
This was indeed a 3.5 discussion.
Any further comments will be well appriciated!!! |
|
|
Saxmilian
Learned Scribe
USA
157 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2013 : 23:12:38
|
Now see I would allow u to change into a demilich but since you haven't the Phalycery(?) to contain your soul if killed then your SOL and gone. |
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 00:27:07
|
I'm with Saxmilian. Creating a phylactery is part of completing a self-directed journey to lichdom... at least the most commonly understood of such journeys... but there are other ways of becoming a lich. Somebody like Velsharoon or Myrkul (and probably others) should be able to turn someone into a lich without a phylactery. That's speculation; point is just that there are often ways around the so-called requirements/limitations, and from the DM's perspective that's a good thing, for keeping players guessing. |
|
|
Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2013 : 20:21:10
|
So... We are categorizing liches and demi liches as unique entities?
I kind of understand that they might be.
As for the lack of phylactory, I would say that as it is a temporary tranformation, one would not need it. |
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2013 : 00:23:46
|
I thought about that, but an individual demilich is only unique in the same sense that an individual orc is unique.
In my post, I just meant that the abilities of an individual which differ from the norm wouldn't be granted by shapechange. The hypothetical demilich Tavvedarr might have a continuous unholy aura effect due to a nuance of the rituals he used to become a demilich. A PC who survives an encounter with Tavvedarr cannot use shapechange to mimic Tavvedarr; he would become a generic demilich based on the ELH entry (assuming he was familiar enough with demiliches to successfully complete the spell) and he wouldn't have the unholy aura power.
Yay for thinking while I type and ultimately murking up the thought. |
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2013 : 02:26:41
|
Demi-lich is a template used on a lich, so I'd rule that it is not a 'type' to be changed into.
You could turn into a lich, but not a demi-lich.
-- George Krashos
|
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2013 : 05:57:25
|
I advocate reading 3.5's spells from the polymorph school un the most strict interpretation of the rules as written. This would include limiting the shapechange spell to the types listed in the 4th level polymorph spell (aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, and vermin). This would leave outsiders and undead out, which makes a lot more sense from both a lore and rules mechanic perspective. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
|
|
Ze
Learned Scribe
Italy
147 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2013 : 07:31:50
|
Sounds reasonable, Bladewind. And George is right too - btw, wasn't lich a template as well in 3e? Or did this change in 4th ed? Banning all templates from what one is allowed to shapechange into, just makes sense to me.
|
|
|
jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 06:15:56
|
Do belnorns have phylacteries?
|
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
|
|
Kyrel
Learned Scribe
151 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2013 : 19:41:22
|
Personally I'd say that you couldn't Shapechange into neither a true Lich nor a Demi-Lich. Both things are Templates as I recall, and thus fall outside what Shapechange can offer. |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2013 : 20:00:29
|
quote: Originally posted by jerrod
Do belnorns have phylacteries?
I just asked this recently in another thread, and from what I recall, the answer was 'no'.
Theory: Since a dead spirit needs to be anchored by something in the Prime Material (which is why Liches have phylactories), I would say that the Baelnorn - possessing its original form - needs no phylactory, because its spirit is housed in its now dead body (a person's body IS their phylactory - its their spirit's anchor to the material world).
A regular lich may not be in its original body - their bodies reform, and probably reformed the very first time they became a lich (although they may not even realize this).
You know whats even more frightening then a Demilich? A Demi Moore! Its steals men's souls, and has been known to 'cradle rob' on occasion. I personally think its some sort of dark fey, related to banshees.
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jul 2013 20:02:49 |
|
|
The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2013 : 01:55:59
|
I think baelnorn are created by High Magic? I seem to recall a reference to it, perhaps in Cormanthyr supplement. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
|
|
Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 00:26:28
|
But there must be a spell that can transform or take on an undead form? |
|
|
Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 02:16:30
|
No, but most of the abilities possessed by undead can be harnessed with the proper necromancy spells. Like ghoul touch, vampiric touch, wail of the banshee, and others.
You CAN NOT use polymorph spells to assume the forms of undead, constructs, outsiders or elementals. Even polymorph any object only adds objects to the list of possible forms.
You CAN choose to turn into undead, permanently, by doing the appropiate research and performing the proper rituals. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 03:14:44
|
quote: Originally posted by jerrod
Do belnorns have phylacteries?
No.
Baelnorns, traditionally, aren't "as disturbingly 'wrong' as the corrupt undead ... [...] Sustained by magic and granted life of a sort beyond nature, ... " [src:- Cormanthyr pg. 121]
Which suggests, to me at least, that the Baelnorns fall into a very different "life beyond death" category, when compared to human liches. So the requirement for a phylactery appears to be absent as a result. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 31 Jul 2013 03:16:32 |
|
|
Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 09:11:00
|
quote: Originally posted by Bladewind
No, but most of the abilities possessed by undead can be harnessed with the proper necromancy spells. Like ghoul touch, vampiric touch, wail of the banshee, and others.
You CAN NOT use polymorph spells to assume the forms of undead, constructs, outsiders or elementals. Even polymorph any object only adds objects to the list of possible forms.
You CAN choose to turn into undead, permanently, by doing the appropiate research and performing the proper rituals.
Not entirely true...
quote: You can become just about anything you are familiar with. You can change form once each round as a free action. The change takes place either immediately before your regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action. For example, you are in combat and assume the form of a will-o’-wisp. When this form is no longer useful, you change into a stone golem and walk away. When pursued, you change into a flea, which hides on a horse until it can hop off. From there, you can become a dragon, an orc, or just about anything else you are familiar with. .
Even ethereal and incorporeal forms can be assumed!
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2013 : 14:10:32
|
But still, you have to become a living creature, even if that creature is composed of energy or insubstantiality (because the form is alive and does have a form somewhere, even if ethereal, etc). Personally, I don't care what the RAW says, I wouldn't allow non-solid forms (the alieness would cause that sort of mental breakdown that sometimes happens when folks assume animal forms, and they can't revert back).
But if you choose to become undead, then you cause your own death, much like when you die in a dream. Its a 'system shock' thing, I would imagine - if your physical form becomes 'dead', then you are dead, end of story. The spell is incapable of returning you to life afterwards.
At least, thats how I see things going, and how I would handle it in my campaigns. YMMV |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|