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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Jul 2013 : 19:11:34
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| That is a interesting point, very few folks tend to like something when it first comes out, but it seems views on TOT have soften and folks are even brave enough now to admit they may have enjoyed it. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2013 : 19:50:26
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Not sure about what you mean with that, but I don't think that people are scared to say whether they like something or not, or that bravery is needed to express the enjoyment of something  |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 22 Jul 2013 19:50:59 |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2013 : 21:40:20
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| Popular opinion can be a very powerful thing. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2013 : 22:23:41
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| Idk, that's the reason why many people tend to be vocal about both what they like and don't. I guess it depends on the individual, but I wouldn't say that shyness is the most common feeling in this regard. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2013 : 23:11:37
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
That is a interesting point, very few folks tend to like something when it first comes out, but it seems views on TOT have soften and folks are even brave enough now to admit they may have enjoyed it.
I've been saying I didn't have an issue with it since I've been discussing the Realms online. I've said it here multiple times, and I'm sure I said it on the WotC forums, before they banned me. That was like 2003 or so. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 Jul 2013 23:36:04 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 03:24:15
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I can think of one thing that a lot of people want and have spoken about at length, but WotC (or whoever is in charge), has deigned not to listen. This is not the thread for it, though.
I don't mind the idea of Ao, but Therise makes some interesting points, ones I hadn't considered. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12082 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 14:25:53
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| Time changes all things. Whenever the ToT happened, I was pretty upset that Bane was gone, but over time and after seeing Xvim in action, I got over it. I was also upset to see Myrkul gone, but Velsharoon took over that "role" for me and was better at it (though I like the idea of Myrkul in the crown). Ironically, at the time (and we're talking what half my life ago?) I wasn't as upset to see Leira gone, but as I've grown older and I see the value in a good trickster deity, I really would like to see her come back in some hidden plot. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 15:23:02
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| If it brings back the realms i love then i dont really care how they do it. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2013 : 18:00:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
If it brings back the realms i love then i dont really care how they do it.
I'm not sure that's really possible at this point. "Bringing back" to me indicates some kind of a re-set, such that you go back to a point where certain changes, and quite a lot of history, didn't happen - along with invalidating a lot of reveals about the "way things work" in the Realms (or at least making them questionable or "unreliable narration").
Granted, what I'd like most is exactly that kind of re-set. Not so much to get rid of various historical events but more to get rid of meta-concepts that define the "way things work" and are explained. But I just don't see it happening.
To be more specific, even if we did turn back the clock to some specific year in 1E or 2E, it still wouldn't necessarily get rid of several things I really dislike immensely:
- Gods as narrow-minded "living concepts" rather than fully anthropomorphic deities in the vein of Norse gods or Greek gods.
- Local, unique gods are really just Flavored Avatars of some primal, living concept. In reality, there's only one pantheon, and all deities of magic across the globe really are just splinters of Mystra.
- The entire re-frame of the original origin story, with the clunky overlay of AO, the "necessity" of a twinned planet called Abeir, and the "don't like a region, just swap it out or eradicate it with Spellplague Plotdevice magic" and another Mystra death.
Those three things alone have radically and permanently altered the way I look at and interpret the published Realms in a heavy-handed and top-down manner. By cementing them in place with the events of 4E and enhancing the AO story further in 5E with another massive RSE / Sundering, there's just no going back IMO. It's really no longer possible to tell players, "well, it's all just unreliable narrator stuff" or "that's merely one way that this one particular sage pictures reality".
The only real way to "go back" at this point would be to stop publishing the current Realms and totally replace it with a re-framed alternate world set in 1E. For example, a fully Re-Booted 1E Realms -or- alternate-divergent Realms that is entirely based on a Ed's "home Realms" without all the added material (i.e. no ToT, no 4E changes, no time jump, etc...). But I don't see that happening unless the 5E Sundering Realms fails to sell.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 23 Jul 2013 18:02:43 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2013 : 02:55:59
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There is always a bigger fish. Ao's first appearance in the Avatar trilogy concluded with him reporting the status of the Realms to his master.
Old D&D Immortals material was largely based on the bigger-fish mentality: every time you exceeded the "maximum" possible level you ended up being the most recent entrant in an entirely larger world. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2013 : 18:52:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
There is always a bigger fish. Ao's first appearance in the Avatar trilogy concluded with him reporting the status of the Realms to his master.
Old D&D Immortals material was largely based on the bigger-fish mentality: every time you exceeded the "maximum" possible level you ended up being the most recent entrant in an entirely larger world.
I don't mind the "bigger fish" concept, really. At the time, though, it mucked with the established origin story and wasn't well-executed in the novels.
And as disliked as AO was at the time, I'm somewhat surprised that they chose to flesh it out even further and make it central to the Sundering. Rather disappointing IMO.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2013 : 23:49:41
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I don't recall Ao being fleshed out, really. Ao was included in 3E-era material only for purposes of consistency, I think, and when mentioned at all it was in only the most cursory and vague manner. Ao was then opportunistically used as a convenient foundation for 4E Realms mythology ... which seemed poorly conceived and more poorly received (especially by me!) ... but it could be argued that FR4E is hardly even the same setting, redefining this single character/entity hardly made much difference in light of the other collateral damage suffered through this edition transition.
In short, I try to remember that Ao in 2E was just an omnipotent-yet-not-quite-omniscient story device, while Ao in 4E was a character in (to me) an entirely different setting only based on the Realms. |
[/Ayrik] |
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
214 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2013 : 00:11:18
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Ao and the other over-deities, isn't a bad concept and depending on the sort of campaign one was choosing to run I'm sure could have been a useful one (ie. PC's seeking divinity).
Ao became a problem only after he was overused as an element to advance the plot and ultimately made him more relatable, rather than simply an enigmatic boogieman to the gods.
I actually have an NPC who is a "cleric of Ao", a former LN noble scion who was in Waterdeep during the ToT and forever dedicated his life to the Cult of Ao ... obviously Ao doesn't provide him with spells, but another deity has and over time the NPC has become LE. |
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What was the point of introducing Ao ?
