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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12081 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jul 2013 : 14:39:45
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I've just been intrigued with Talos and this whole Gruumsh idea (as in I don't like that he's Gruumsh). I've also been intrigued by the idea of figuring out who was in what pantheon when. Its taken me to some weird ideas.... like maybe Bhaelros is a primordial entrapped inside of an idol with a dragon. Maybe Calim and Memnon were primordials from Abeir during an earlier crossover. Maybe Talos was the original sun god. Maybe Talos possesses the "Guardian's Tear" artifact (created when Helm cried for killing Mystra) and perhaps somehow his possessing of it caused his death during the spellplague. Maybe the primordial Telos (Master of the Iron Sky) and Talos also have some link (both related to sky... possibly both died during spellplague).
Its also raised some questions, like Kozah had two eyes. Talos had one. The easy assumption here is that he lost one in the intervening years or that this is when Gruumsh seized the portfolio from Kozah... but for those of us who would prefer that the Gruumsh thing was a post-spellplague grasp, is there maybe some other reason? Kozah possesses the 3 staves that Talos is known to possess, and he is the stormstar, so he was likely the one that converted Aurilandur into the Queen of Air and Darkness.... so I'm seeing Kozah as a mad feywild power maybe? Why the name change (and it is a change since the name Kozah starts disappearing except amongst the remaining Bedine)?
From Faiths & Pantheons, page 68
"Talos was formed from the first battle between Selune and Shar."
also Faiths & Pantheons, page 56
"Chauntea begged the sisters to grant her world warmth and light that life might flourish upon it. Selune relented, igniting the sun with elemental fire. Shar, who treasured the primordial darkness and resented Chauntea's concept of life, lashed out at her sister, initiating a conflict that has endured to the present day."
From Earth's mythology
"In the genealogy of the epic poet Cinaethon, Talos was apparently the Cretan sun-god, a son of Kres (that is, the island of Crete), and the father of the fire-god Hephaistos."
"In the Cretan dialect, talōs was the equivalent of the Greek hźlios, the Sun: the lexicon of Hesychius of Alexandria notes simply "Talos is the Sun". In Crete Zeus was worshipped as Zeus Tallaios"
Proposal - Talos was the first sun god. He was then "swallowed" by Dendar the Night-Serpent and brought back to "life" as a being of destruction. Alternatively, the swallowing may have just been his being turned by Dendar or something similar. Another alternative could be that he was encouraged to destroy the planet Coliar, which kicked off the shadow Epoch.
On Kozah - from Netheril- Empire of Magic, page 43
"When Kozah was portrayed in religious art, he was depicted as a broad-shouldered, dark-haired, bearded young man with eyes that blazed yellow and crackled with unleashed lightning. He wore a half-suit of field plate armor (without a helm) worn over smooth black leather armor and black leather gloves. He carried three staves, one of the first iron forged on Faerūn, one of the first silver smelted in Faerūn, and one carved from the first tree felled in Faerūn (said to be a shadowtop). With them he raised and hurled the winds, created storms of immense force, stirred Torils waters to form waterspouts, whirlpools, and tsunamis, raised and lowered the seas, rent the earth, and called forth earthquakes. His gaze was said to be able to send forth raging curtains of lightning to smite his foes at his whim.
Proposal - Kozah was either Talos by another name in this pantheon and he later lost the other eye, OR Kozah and Talos came to a head and Talos won. Alternatively, Gruumsh attacked Kozah and created an alias named Talos (I'm not fond of this).
On Bhaelros - from Empires of the Sands, page 56
"The Idol of Bhaelros itself is a spectacular statue over 30#146; high, covered in beaten gold and inlaid with huge, precious gems. In fact, the entire temple, and particularly the Chosen Plaza, is covered with the finest paintings, tapestries, sculptures and other artwork imaginable. The followers of Bhaelros believe that his spirit inhabits the idol, so they show it the greatest respect possible. It is also believed that if the temple is desecrated in any way, Bhaelros(accompanied by a great dragon which Bhaelros keeps on a chain by his side) will emerge from the idol to exact his revenge."
NOTE: this is actually the cover of Empires of the Sands, for it shows two eyed Bhaelros as a kind of Djinn looking being emerging from a statue with a very shiny yellow'ish dragon on a short chain.
Proposal - The spirit of Bhaelros and that of its dragon steed is indeed entrapped within this statue. Bhaelros was a primordial who was entrapped in the idol of Bhaelros millenia ago. He possibly came over when the Djen arrived from Abeir into Calimshan during "the Great Arrival".... or possibly when Memnon arrived... or possibly later whenever the Elves cast the magic that created teh Calimemnon crystal... or possibly entirely unrelated, he used the same pathway that Calim and Memnon used to come to Toril and was promptly entrapped by beings of power (maybe High Mages, maybe Jaamdathans, dunno). Either way, a cult arose around the idol, which seemed to have some ability to control the weather and could manifest within a small area. Eventually Talos came in and usurped the worship being granted this being and made sure noone could reach the idol who was not loyal to him.
On Malyk - from FR wiki (cites polyhedron Forgotten Deities article as source)
Malyk was a drow lich of increasing power who lived in the Underdark beneath the Dalelands. During the Time of Troubles - after Mystras death but before Midnights apotheosis - he came across a powerful area of wild magic beneath Castle Crag. Somehow, he managed to steal a part of Mystras divine essence from the zone.
Tempus, upon learning of Malyks actions descended into the Underdark and destroyed the lich, hoping to take some of Mystras power for himself. Unfortunately for him it seems Ao decided to grant Talos that power instead. Though no one save the new Mystra would ever know that was the case.
Also, this from Volo's Guide to All things Magical (pg 108-109)
"The Shadow Knights managed to abscond with the gem but were then ambushed by a half-dozen dark elf wild mages
calling themselves the Cult of Malyk. The cultists seized the Guardian's Tear and vanished."
"The reason the wild mages took the Guardian.s Tear is that the Cult of Malyk is trying to overthrow the Conclave of Sshamath. Malyk is a power of wild and evil magic and rebellion (actually an aspect of Talos) whose cult appeared in the Underdark following the Time of Troubles."
NOTE: the guardian's tear embodied all the anguish of Helm and the chaos of Mystra's Demise on the celestial stairway, and the image inside of it shows the death of Mystra.
Proposal: Malyk used the Guardian's Tear as a phylactery for his apotheosis into lichdom, and as a result managed to obtain a level of divine status. The story of Tempus destroying the lich is kind of true, for Tempus fought the semi-divine drow lich, but Talos stole the Guardian's Tear.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2013 : 20:24:13
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| My only question is, what is your desired outcome of this theory, I sort of lost how you were connecting the dots, by paragraph two. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 13:32:12
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| I like your idea about being eaten by Dendar brought to life as forces of destruction. Tough in first GHotR Talos was not the first sun god, Selune brought the Yellow god (sun), the Stormstar appeared after that, after Shar summoned him. My non-canon version of Talos was also inspired by the Greek mythological construct, people prayed to the armor to protect them, not to the incarnation of destructive energy contained within. It was a dual being, similar to Nethys of Golarion. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12081 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 17:48:38
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
My only question is, what is your desired outcome of this theory, I sort of lost how you were connecting the dots, by paragraph two.
Actually, I was intentionally NOT connecting the dots in this instance, just to see what others might throw in the stew. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2013 : 04:09:30
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I doubt that Talos of the Realms has any connection to Talos of Earth (as either the giant bronze guardian statue or as the demigod inventor/crafter from Classical Greek mythologies). The other Talos references the OP cited - essentially a bronze-age sky/sun god - are news to me, I'd always thought those crazy Cretans basically just worshipped an aspected Persian/Indian/pagan bull-god/minotaur being of some sort, though I could be wrong.
I was never able to digest Gruumsh and Talos being the same entity - in fact, I think if it came to a head then my money would be on Gruumsh (leader of legions of orc hordes!) slapping and stomping wimpy little one-world-godling Talos into the muck while hardly even bothering to lift his spear. This is just one of those canon things which I will continue to reject with prejudice, even while the entire D&D cosmology is reincarnated over and over again ... at least my orcs remain forever uncorrupted by emo politics and modern thinking, they are eternally monstrous and manly and beastly ... they are creatures of mud, blood, iron, fire, and pain. No way could half-incompetent Faerūnian Talos ever aspire towards (or destroy) such coolness.
Kozah was just a little local Power swimming through a big and scary pantheon. Talos probably destroys such little tadpoles with utter impunity and regularity. Humans and many other races - arguably even those pesky arrogant elves - really like to destroy things, so they're constantly creating the right conditions for little guys like Kozah to spontaneously sprout and sustain little guys like Kozah. There's probably a dozen Kozah-counterparts scattered throughout the Realms at any given time who aren't impressive enough to attract divine intervention by Talos. And it has been noted before, in several sources, that Talos is particularly "blind" in his godlike attentions - he only sees things he can destroy, and assumes everything he sees must exist only so that he can destroy them.
Google up "thunder god" or "storm god" to find literally dozens and dozens of names for a deity or group of deities who are essentially just local variations on the same theme. Was our Earth once populated by hundreds of different little storm gods, or were these just local variations of a few large storm gods, or were they even just different eyewitness accounts of a singular great being? More interestingly, many of these thunder/storm/sky gods were also war gods who apparently battled and slew each other as their believers migrated. So ... how does all this compare to Talos of the Realms? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2013 : 09:51:37
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Talos is not a sun god. Talos is the incarnation of destruction. Probably destruction as linked to nature. Elemental fury. The complement to Chauntea's growth and life, Talos represents the entropy side of nature: the ravaging wind, the fury of a lightning bolt, and the force of water in all it's aspectsfrom the crashing of waves, to mudslides, torrents of rain, and maelstroms. Talos loves water best of all, it dissolves earth, drowns and swallows life, erodes mountains, seeps into cracks and carves vast caverns out of bedrock.
Kozah, Bhaelros, and Talos are all aspects of the same god of destruction that had his origins in the War of Light and Darkness between Selūne and Shar. Well, possibly fragments, each split off from each other, pulled apart and shattered from their original unitary conception by the demands of differing beliefs and servicing different, isolated populations of humans.
The thing to understand is that Gruumsh is not an orc. He created the orcs, and they worship him in orc guise. But Gruumsh (and Gruumsh is just his orc name, probably given to him by the orcsor alternatively as a Seldarine term of derision) is not an orc. Gruumsh was probably originally an archfey. Very likely a fomorian, the one-eyed race of dread, subterranean fey. Alternatively, Gruumsh may originate in the Shadowfell, a manifestation of shadow-nature. The Shadowfell's equivalent and complement to Corellon.
But, wherever he's from, Gruumsh's destiny became entwined with the Seldarine in the feywild. Gruumsh is the nemesis of Corellon, and everything that Corellon is, Gruumsh is his diametric opposite. Gruumsh is just as much a nature deity as Corellon. But Gruumsh represents the dark side of nature.
In the War of Light and Darkness, Corellon was brought in from the Feywild to fight as an ally of Selūne. Gruumsh entered the war on the side of Shar.
Shar was so hurt by her great loves, her sister Selūne (and in effect her wife) and their daughter Chauntea. Chauntea asked for, and Selūne created, a sun to warm and nurture Chauntea. Shar felt so betrayed. You cannot imagine her hurt. For the sun was in fact her negation. The balance, the equilibrium, the harmony of light and darkness had been unalterably changed with the creation of the sun.
She was hurt that they even asked her. But she said no. And Selūne made it anyway. Unilaterally. Despite her words and wishes. The beams of sunlight from Selūne's creation speared Shar's essence, transfixed her, pierced her heart like a lance. With the new sun, light was now bounteous; Selūne was augmented, and Shar was diminished. Shar slunk off into Shadow to nurse her wounds and her broken heart.
From the Shadow Plane, Shar discovered she could connect to other worlds, and she called fell forces to her, and they were drawn to her from across the void by the sweetness of her sorrow.
Fiends, and dark gods, and fell forces amassed in Shadow to make war in her name against Selūne, promised the rights of pillage and property, Shar was willing to scorch the sphere to ashes to have her vengeance on her family.
When Gruumsh came to Shar, she set him a special task, and this was to harrow Chauntea. To punish her, ravage her, scar her, as Shar had been scarred. I think he may have been promised no less than Chauntea's portfolios. Had Shar triumphed, Gruumsh would have been the dark and twisted god of nature of Toril.
Malar is the product of one terrible instance of Gruumsh's defilement of Chauntea. The story of that encounter remains untold, but we can be sure it was savage and merciless.
Gruumsh would much later create the orc race, as the dark counterpart to Corellon's elves. Of course the orcs see him as an Orc. Just as the Coramshites saw Bhaelros as human, or the Netherese saw Kozah as human, or the Talfirs saw Talos as human. But the incarnation of destruction, the fury of nature, is neither human nor orc.
Gruumsh is the fury of the wind, he is the spark of a lightning bolt, he is the cascading stone in a landslide, he is the ravaging flames of a wildfire. He is the hungry mud in a bog that swallows an ox. Gruumsh is many more things than there are names to call him.
Gruumsh was even worshiped in the Blue age by the aquatic creator race, the silent octopoid folk who spoke in a language of motion and color. His name in their language looked like a violent swirl of tentacles accompanied by skin the charcoal grey and sepia tones of thunderclouds with whorling patterns like maelstroms with jagged teeth, gnashing and clashing and grinding.
Gruumsh saved his aquatic race worshipers from the metamorphosis of Ramenos, when the majority of the octopoids were transformed into the amphibious Batrachi. He destroyed the very magic Ramenos sought to assert over them. But as a side effect, his followers all lost their second eye, and would ever after resemble their one-eyed patron Talos/Gruumsh. This subrace is known today as the Tako, still thriving to this day in the East in the lands of Kara-Tur.
In the wake of the Spellplague, Talos/Gruumsh was augmented by the sheer magnitude of the destruction. To the extent he was fragmented, the entity reabsorbed and united his aspects and fragments under his Gruumsh guise. Perhaps because it was the most fearsome, the most dread and terrible visage, the best representation of destruction he had in his wardrobe. Who can say?
The orcs were on the rise in Faerūn, they have their own nation, they are multitudinous. Perhaps he made a calculation that his best route to increased divine rank was to nurture his orc aspect, which serves a dual purpose: increased veneration from a growing population of orc worshipers, and increased prayer and propitiation from those who fear orcs and wish him to spare them from the depredations of orcs. |
Edited by - Gray Richardson on 17 Jul 2013 10:23:53 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2013 : 14:20:49
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Since I think Gruumsh is/was a Svartalfar (dark fey), and the leader of them when they first broke-away from the rest of the Fey (and fled Faerie en masse to a multitude of prime worlds), I have no problem with Talos being a human-aspect of him. I picture hordes of goblinoids flooding through gates into prehistoric settings, and the primitive humans there picking-up pieces of their culture (because that what humans do best - learn, absorb, and adapt).
I had thought about combining him with Odin (Woten), but I feel Annam makes a better fit for Odin (despite the whole 'one eye' thing). Every god that lost an eye need not be related. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12081 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2013 : 04:35:54
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My disagreement to the Gruumsh as Talos argument ties me to Ayrik's argument, but from a different direction. He obviously favors Gruumsh more than Talos (and in some respects, I can understand that). To me, Gruumsh is NOT the spark of lightning, nor the roar of Thunder, nor the howling winds of a tornado, nor the power of an earthquake, nor the eruption of a volcano. Gruumsh is a bestial, bloodthirsty deity, more like Malar than Talos (the idea that Gruumsh birthed Malar on Chauntea is intriguing... though to tell the truth, having any "savage" deity birthing Malar on Chauntea could fit the bill).
I understand the want to create an "Anti-Corellon", but Gruumsh was never presented as such. He was a rival and he sought to destroy the Seldarine, but it was more like one pantheon working against another. Now, he could come from the feywild like you propose, and him originally being a fomorian or a Cyclops could easily fit into things. I also see folks trying to tie orcs and elves racially, but lets face it, that's a Tolkien thing and not a realmsian or even D&D link (to the point that at one point, they even specified that the two races were incompatible sexually).
My take on the latest Gruumsh as Talos is more that something happened to Talos during the spellplague and Gruumsh seized his portfolios (and he couldn't hold onto them and Auril basically seized them). He basically fooled the gods of Fury in a bid to make them assault the Seldarine, but it didn't last. Now, what happened to Talos during the spellplague? Was his trying to tie himself as Malyk to Mystra's domain something that led into some kind of feedback into him when Mystra was killed and her domain destroyed? Was he somehow absorbed into the weave as "wild and destructive magic" personified (to that end, is Malyk/Talos the source of the spellplague)? Did Talos get pulled over to Abeir? Was Talos really a primordial like Kossuth, Akadi, Grumbar, and Istishia.... or was he maybe an Archfey? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2013 : 05:17:20
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For me, its not so much a 'Tolkien thing' as it is a 'folklore thing'.
Fey = Elves
Orcs = Goblins
Goblins ARE a type of fairy - they are Unseelie fey
At least, thats how it works when you apply RW folklore to D&D lore. Tolkien didn't create anything - he just married a lot of classic (tropey) concepts together from RW mythology and folklore, is all.
And I am not 'dissing' J.R.R. Tolkien - I have nothing but respect and admiration for the man and his work; without it, I may have never discovered D&D. But it is what it is.
At its heart, fairy lore repeatedly demonstrates the fey ability to change their form (and even size). They use this as camouflage, and to scare the beejeezus out of mortals. They even use it to hide, and to get into places they couldn't otherwise get into ('the sky' being one of them - you have to get awfully small before any sort of wings will counter gravity). Obviously, fairies over the years have somehow lost this 'changeling' ability, and most are stuck with just one or two forms (and sometimes a hybrid form). Very few - like the Phooka - retain their initial ability to take any shape. I personally blame this on the loss of the 'first world', but I've tied that to the incident of the Black Diamond, which I believe is D&D canon.
Regardless of why they have been gradually losing their powers (also known as 'the diminishing'), we know of at least one major division in their ranks - the Seelie and Unseelie fey. This really has nothing to do with good & evil, but rather Law & Chaos; Seelie Fey have a certain respect for the Fairy Court and its rules, which in turn respects (somewhat) the rights of other sentient beings. All fey are chaotic, but the Seelie Fey know where to draw the line while playing a prank or scaring someone off.
So the basic premise here is that the original fey could change form at-will, and did so, and the Unseelie fey probably took on hideous forms just because it amused them to do so. You know the old adage, "stopping making that face or it will freeze that way"? Unfortunately for the fey, this held true. Orcs and other goblinoids are 'stuck' looking hideous because they can no longer change (for whatever reason). And at the end of the day, an Orc is just a big, grumpy goblin.
So yeah, MY version of Gruumsh isn't exactly the same as canon Gruumsh, and he easily dovetails with Talos. 'Gru-Mass' is ancient fey for 'wild spirit' - he was literally "a force of nature" in the eyes of the other S'Eladrin (Blessed Eladrin), and to his brother, Cor Ellion (Forest Brother). The break between the Svaltalfar and the light Elves happened thousands of years before the Dark Green Elves broke from the other Sylvan Elves, and that occurred millenia before they became Dhaerow (Drow). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Jul 2013 05:31:20 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2013 : 00:07:24
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Of course I'm biased towards Gruumsh's supremacy over Talos. But I'll admit it's really just a matter of personal preference and opinion: I consider 2E-era lore (such as Monstrous Mythology) more "accurate" than the fabricated more elaborate 4E-era lore which asserts Gruumsh is a subsumed aspect of Talos. I'm willing to concede the possibility that this may indeed be the case in the Realms, but it's certainly not documented anywhere else in the D&D cosmos. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 26 Jul 2013 00:08:10 |
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Talos - some research into Alias' & real world
