| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 23:44:30
|
|
Just need a small clarification when it comes to PSI and the realms. Is it a sort of internal power while magic is a external power?
|
|
|
Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 00:18:30
|
Its internal in the sense of its way of controlling the magic. It's essentially a form of magic without (material, verbal or somatic) components, controlled solely through mental effort.
It requires perfect concentration, so a good sense of ones self, both in body and mind is usually required. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
 |
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2513 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 02:00:10
|
Psionics isn't magic. Exlpiitly was said to be internally powered in 2e Complete Psionics, and a good implicit, yet clear FR example was Time of Troubles in Menzoberranzan, that is House Oblodra being able to act while the Weave was screwed up and both priestesses and wizards mostly sat on their behinds, sucked their thumbs and hoped they won't need to do anything until it's over.
Game model -wise, of course, it's "yes, but no, but yes". |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 04:15:35
|
| Simply put, psionics doesn't work through the Weave, " ... and therefore stands apart from magic, can work in dead-magic zones, etc." [src: So Saith Ed July '04]. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1158 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 12:27:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Psionics isn't magic. Exlpiitly was said to be internally powered in 2e Complete Psionics, and a good implicit, yet clear FR example was Time of Troubles in Menzoberranzan, that is House Oblodra being able to act while the Weave was screwed up and both priestesses and wizards mostly sat on their behinds, sucked their thumbs and hoped they won't need to do anything until it's over.
Game model -wise, of course, it's "yes, but no, but yes".
Actually psionics WERE affected by the Time of Troubles. They stopped working the same way, much like magic did after the Spellplague. What few psionicists there are in the Realms managed to keep it quiet until they discovered their workaround, though species with hive minds, such as the Mind Flayers, recovered very quickly. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
|
|
|
Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1607 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 12:55:03
|
| Sources, please? I do recall reading that psionics were not affected, but maybe it was retconned afterwards. At least in 2e psionic powers were not magic, now maybe it is considered a non-weave magical source. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
|
|
|
hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1158 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 13:32:09
|
| It was in one of the Drizzt novels. Siege of Darkness I think. I don't have anything to hand. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 13:37:13
|
From what I saw during the War between Menzo and Mithril Hall, psionics was the ONLY 'magic' still functioning (which is why House Oblodra made their power-grab at that time). You may be thing of the WotSQ, which isn't the same as the ToT.
However, they do affect each other, so there is some sort of connection. There are a number of hints that psionic abilities actually enhances magical potential (and giving the way Vancian Magic works, that makes perfect sense). If you have both, your magical potential rises astronomically (Elminster, for example).
Perhaps psionics is the power beyond magic - its of the same nature as magic, but is above and beyond the Weave (in the hierarchy of cosmic energies).
For comparison, take electricity. We have built our own technological 'Weave' with it (the power grids and superstructure), and we can tap into it for very specific purposes, at very specific voltages and amperage, and thus limited in that fashion, Everything made to work within that 'Weave' must conform to its rules (so although a toaster is not a blender, both can plug-into the same outlet).
Psionis is the RAW Potential of pure energy. When you have that, you don't have the limitations Weave-based magic sets upon you. Its kind of like what we do with electricity, as compared to what Tesla did with it (or is rumored to have done with it, like open dimensional portals, etc). The unconstrained use of the electromagnetic spectrum has infinitely more potential then our power grids do.
I've used this example before (only because there was similar scene in an Elminster novel) - folks who have psionic talent AND magical ability can literally 'see' the Weave, or rather, the energy that composes the weave, and can manipulate it directly, without any need for spells (which are like keys to unlock certain reality-altering events). They are like how Neo saw The Matrix at the end of the first movie (they see the 'code' below the false reality). When you can do that, of what need are simple spells? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jun 2013 13:40:24 |
|
|
|
hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1158 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 13:40:43
|
| No, it was definitely the Time of Troubles. I think it was an in-universe way to explain the differences between 1e & 2e psionics. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
|
|
|
Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 17:13:01
|
| I think I recall that the drow and indeed all of those who used psionics were affected by the ToT. Because their power is internal they quickly made the changes needed to keep using their powers. As mentioned above, those with a hive mind were the first to adapt. |
|
|
|
Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 18:05:40
|
Having dealt with running/fighting a high level psionic character as DM in the home campaign recently I can tell you that the answer to this question basically varies by edition!
In 2E magic and psionics worked on parallel paths and were thus out of synch with each other (anti-magic shell did nothing to suppression psionic powers, etc). The rules for this are in the 2E hardcover 'Forgotten Realms Adventures' guide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgotten_Realms_Adventures). However, in 3E/3.5/Pathfinder/etc magic and psionics operate on the same track (anti-magic field DOES suppress psionic powers, etc). The rules for this are in the 3.5E 'Players Guide to Faerun' (http://www.amazon.com/Players-Dungeons-Roleplaying-Forgotten-Accessory/dp/0786931345) on page 172. I'll readily admit I have zero idea how they are handled in 4E.
This VERY different treatment of psionics in 2E and 3E is a bit frustrating, but one plays the hand one is dealt I suppose!
I hope that helped. |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2513 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 01:40:44
|
In 3e psionic classes have familiars - crystals with legs. I shall leave this without a comment.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 02:10:29
|
2e psionics were affected at the very end of the ToT, when Mystra hit the reset button on the Weave. Basically it was because that while the power came internally, being able to utilize it required you to be in tune not just with yourself, but with the world around you. Reseting the Weave was something most people wouldn't notice, but it was enough to throw off the psionicists for a brief period of time. It's explicitly stated that given a bit of time the Oblodra psionicists would have figured everything out and been back to full power; they just weren't given that time.
But going back to the OP, the answer is yes. That's it exactly. Psionics doesn't use any external energy source, it just uses the power of the individual. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 06:34:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
From what I saw during the War between Menzo and Mithril Hall, psionics was the ONLY 'magic' still functioning (which is why House Oblodra made their power-grab at that time). You may be thing of the WotSQ, which isn't the same as the ToT.
However, they do affect each other, so there is some sort of connection. There are a number of hints that psionic abilities actually enhances magical potential (and giving the way Vancian Magic works, that makes perfect sense). If you have both, your magical potential rises astronomically (Elminster, for example).
Perhaps psionics is the power beyond magic - its of the same nature as magic, but is above and beyond the Weave (in the hierarchy of cosmic energies).
For comparison, take electricity. We have built our own technological 'Weave' with it (the power grids and superstructure), and we can tap into it for very specific purposes, at very specific voltages and amperage, and thus limited in that fashion, Everything made to work within that 'Weave' must conform to its rules (so although a toaster is not a blender, both can plug-into the same outlet).
Psionis is the RAW Potential of pure energy. When you have that, you don't have the limitations Weave-based magic sets upon you. Its kind of like what we do with electricity, as compared to what Tesla did with it (or is rumored to have done with it, like open dimensional portals, etc). The unconstrained use of the electromagnetic spectrum has infinitely more potential then our power grids do.
I've used this example before (only because there was similar scene in an Elminster novel) - folks who have psionic talent AND magical ability can literally 'see' the Weave, or rather, the energy that composes the weave, and can manipulate it directly, without any need for spells (which are like keys to unlock certain reality-altering events). They are like how Neo saw The Matrix at the end of the first movie (they see the 'code' below the false reality). When you can do that, of what need are simple spells?
Excellent posts. I recall a few powerful spellcasters being mentioned as having "mind shields" (Gromph and Skati in the Starlight and Shadows Trilogy, Draygo Quick in the Last Threshold). How do you think that ties into our discussion of magic and psionics? |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 17:11:42
|
| "Mind shields" is a very broad and vague term that could mean just about anything, and would likely cover both magic and psionics. Tower of iron will, mind blank spell, protection against charming, etc. would all fall under the category of mind shields. Both magic and psionics have ways to read and mess with the mind, so both of them would also have ways to protect the mind. Most of the people you were citing would almost certainly be using magical varieties, whether through spells, items, or both. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 18:09:42
|
When I think of how psionics works, this is how I conceive of it...
In the Realms there is magic in all things (see my quote signature). Magic users usually tap into the Weave that is around them as they memorize/cast spells. They don't have the magic IN them so much as they have the key to unlock the magic of the universe, both through training and natural ability.
Psionics are different. They don't need to tap into the Weave outside of themselves because it is IN them. But how is it in them? How does their power grow? How do you explain the expenditure of a finite amount of power they can access each day? If there is magic in all things, psionicists have an ability to absorb it from their everyday lives - in the food they eat, the air they breathe, the sun as it beats on their skin, etc. etc. This magical energy builds in them and those with training (and skills that increase with experience), they can "spindle" this energy into a reservoir inside of their mind-body. Something like Qi.
This then allows them to do things like cast spells in dead magic zones or overcome antimagic shells (in those editions where it works that way) because even when blocked from the Weave, they have their reservoir of power within them. It also explains why when magic changes or the Weave is disrupted they are affected, but can then adjust and recover their full capabilities much faster than traditional magic users. They just have to figure out how to absorb/spindle magical energy in its new form/flow. Even when the Weave is disrupted, magic still stands as a fundamental part of the world and is thus there for the taking. Psionicists just have to relearn how to pull on it. Once they have that down, they can use magic without being disrupted or overcome by disturbances in the Weave, since they regulate it internally. |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
|
|
|
hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1158 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 11:28:46
|
| I've seen it explained in 3.x sources that psionics in D&D are powered by ki - the same internal energy source that fuels the abilities of Monks and Ninjas. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Psionic Magic?
