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Cbad285
Learned Scribe
160 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jun 2013 : 08:09:20
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So I have a human Ranger, who for story line purposes, died. But, he was brought back to life. However, the condition of his return was this...
A companion of his, a high elf, gave part of his soul and sacrificed his ability to go to the gray haven to restore his friend. Thus, the ranger was brought back to life, but with an elven soul.
The reason we did this like we did is that we wanted to create a human line in our game that was similar to Aragorn from LOTR where the lived longer than most humans.
Now, my question is this...How do we go about making a ruling on aging, the ability mods for venerable ages and how long should this human with an elven soul live.
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"Beware the Dream Fever!" |
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lordsknight185
Learned Scribe
USA
100 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2013 : 12:22:54
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| Well, since you are speaking of game mechanics, what does your DM say on the subject? |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2013 : 12:28:20
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Increase the lower limit of each age category by 50%. Middle age would then be 52, old age is 79, and venerable age is at 105.
If your ranger is already middle age then revert him back to adult but keep the bonuses and penalties already accrued for advancing to middle age. If/when he reaches his new middle age don't change his stats again but when he becomes old at 79 then grant him the old age bonuses/penalties as normal.
I base this on the Arvandor's Grace extraordinary ability which imparts quote: "a glimmer of elven agelessness". |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Cbad285
Learned Scribe
160 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2013 : 01:27:31
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| My dm has said very little since we are still investigating the matter. But he has said the character could live to a max of 250 years. The ranger is already 48 years old. |
"Beware the Dream Fever!" |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1281 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2013 : 04:31:58
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| Wow...unless my characters were wizards who used a lot of age-ing spells like haste or wish, I never worried about age in my campaigns. Even the longest ones probably took a few years only of game time. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2013 : 08:00:01
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I think we have been playing for 25-30 years ingame time, and around 12 years real time...
So I cant say I worry too much either about the effects of aging! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 00:07:32
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If this fellow requires any special treatment from a game rules/mechanics perspective then I'd suggest simply polymorphing him into a half-elf. It's all up to the DM and the player(s) to what degree this PC's cosmetic features (height, weight, skin/eye/hair colours, etc) might be changed, as best suits "story" requirements. There are no official game rules for such things, only stories.
A profound Realms-canon comment, by the halfling vermin Olive Ruskettle, claimed that souls are infinite wholes so each part of a divided soul must also comprise an infinite (and infinitely dividable) whole. This allows the saurial Dragonbait and the construct Alias to "share" a soul, be drawn together through a fundamental and supernatural bond, and yet each function as an entirely separate individual.
Yet another profound Realms-canon comment, by the glorious penultimate archfiend Mephistopheles, is that a soul torn asunder can be divided in an unbalanced manner wherein each soul-part contains different finite components of the original individual. This allows the unhappy cambion Magadon to be divided into two unhappy cambion half-Magadons, one (set free upon the world) representing the moral goodly human parts of the whole, the other (stuck in Mephy's private collection) inclined towards all the dark and nasty devil bits, both suffering from the savage amputation of the other part and neither able to really function as a complete individual.
It's possible that the two half-Magadons might eventually, if allowed, be able to each heal/grow into more balanced and complete individuals over time, as it is suggested Dragonbait and Alias did (separately and together) before they met their first shared adventure.
I wonder if two-headed sapients such as ettins possess two souls or (through some lost ancient arcane/divine meddlings and mutations) instead possess a kind of mystical shared-soul relationship. Perhaps an adventure/story could revolve around some dual-entity deity (like the Ouroborus World Serpent?) which explores the special causes and relationships of such metaphysical dualities. Or perhaps the issue is much less complicated, and outer planar entities can simply cut easily-chewed chunks of soul apart at their dinner tables. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Jun 2013 00:22:38 |
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Cbad285
Learned Scribe
160 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 07:08:37
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Polymorph into a halfelf seems a little drastic. Upping the recs for aging via as a half elf I agree with. IE the human ages at a slower rate.
I'm still questioning how long this human would live however. The other day over aim I suggested to the DM he be attatched to the elf in question. Akin to a 'familiar' relationship. When he dies, the ranger dies, when the ranger dies, the elf loses con, ect.
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"Beware the Dream Fever!" |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 07:47:52
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I would simply say that he ages as would an elf. Elrond "Half-Elven" was in fact not a full elf in Middle-Earth; so there is that.
If that isn't ok, then I'd say he ages like a half-elf and be done with it...no additional abilities, side-effects or anything at all. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 12:02:28
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| But we must consider that Tolkien elves and half-elves are different from D&D. In Middle Earth, elves are immortal regarding longevity, and half-elves can choose between immortality or aging as humans. IIRC, they can choose starting to age at anytime in their lives, and that's why Arwen could choose to go old as Aragorn's queen. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 13:22:15
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I'm with Dalor on this - I'd simply treat him as a half-elf for aging.
We've had some hints that FR Elves ARE actually immortal, but only very rarely do they choose to live beyond a 1000 (but a few have - this was covered in the Evermeet source).
So although ME Elves live much longer, it appears to simply be a 'choice thing'. We can't apply our RW perspective to this - Elves truly are "going to a better place", so all of them look forward to their final rest. Only an incredible sense of duty will make them stay around longer.
Which confuses me a bit in regards to Baelnorn - why choose unlife when they CAN live longer? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jun 2013 13:24:16 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 15:30:11
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Markus,
This immortality issue is a bit confusing, IMHO. While some sources made me understand that this immortality would be reached in Arvandor, and that the call is irresistible (lemming-like?), other sources made me think it was a logical decision (elves grew bored or tired of this world, or thought their time of living and contributing to their peers in this life would be enough).
Cormanthyr made it even stranger when it said they could stay if they so choose, but that their appearance became more alien if so. So, I stick to the irresistible call of the beyond, both for mystical and logical reasons, and that baelnorn, by choosing undeath, silence this call, at the great expense of denying, or at least belating their claim to rest in the glades of Arvanaith.
EDIT: As for the question per se, I'm both with Dalor and Markus. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 28 Jun 2013 12:47:35 |
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rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 23:40:53
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| at some point, sooner then later, he is going to need a new body, unless magic is used... his soul may be elven, but the container is still human and will start to break down and grow old normally. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2013 : 03:43:12
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I'm disinclined to accept that FR elves are truly immortal. If even a few particularly rare/powerful individual elves could choose to indefinitely deny their spiritual calling then they would never have cause to invent baelnorns or banshees. Remember that elves abhor the abomination of undeath more than any other race, I cannot believe they would ever allow themselves (or others) to transform into undead if other natural or supernatural alternatives exist. Why would an elven ubermage lichify himself if his biology already lets him live forever?
The 2E PHB suggests that elves are able to sense when their time will come and, in only the most extraordinary circumstances, be able to delay it barely long enough to accomplish something of particular importance. I imagine that an elf might be able to resist this call for some years or perhaps decades but part of his spirit would wilt and languish and thus none possess the will to resist their calling forever.
[Edit]
Tolkien's two half-elves - Elric and Elrond - were each permitted to choose their fate. One chose to be truly elven, loving pointy-eared elven interests and destined to sail West at the end of ages with all the other true elves. The other chose mortality and fixated on worldly things although he was gifted with longevity comparable to the noblest lineages of men. Not at all the same species as D&D/FR half-elves (and elves and humans). |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 27 Jun 2013 04:07:16 |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2013 : 14:35:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Cbad285
[br
Now, my question is this...How do we go about making a ruling on aging, the ability mods for venerable ages and how long should this human with an elven soul live.
The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. I agree with some of the others. Use the Half-elf rules for aging. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2013 : 14:41:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'm disinclined to accept that FR elves are truly immortal. If even a few particularly rare/powerful individual elves could choose to indefinitely deny their spiritual calling then they would never have cause to invent baelnorns or banshees. Remember that elves abhor the abomination of undeath more than any other race, I cannot believe they would ever allow themselves (or others) to transform into undead if other natural or supernatural alternatives exist. Why would an elven ubermage lichify himself if his biology already lets him live forever?
I am going to nitpick. Banshees exist because they died before their time or they believe they died before their time. As for baelnorns I don’t remember enough about them to offer a good opinion. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2013 : 15:08:50
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| Well, it does say that there aren't many modern baelnorn because most modern elves don't think the choice they made was sane. My off-the-cuff reasoning would be an echo of the "spirit is willing but flesh is weak" comment used above: these are elves who are overwhelmingly dedicated to a particular goal that would take much longer than a "normal" elven lifespan, so it makes sense that they would take steps to cut down on the temptation to just give in and go to Arvandor. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2013 : 12:16:48
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As for the Baelnorn thing, I like Barastir's logic.
The impulse to 'move on' to Arvandor is nearly impossible to ignore (like the Lemmings in his example), and may even prove painful at some point. The female elf (I believe she is in charge of Evermeet's dragons, IIRC) in Elves of Evermeet that is resisting the impulse puts herself in a draconic-like comatose state between times when she is needed. In fact, the similarity to dragons while they age works very well. She could be asleep for decades between brief periods of wakefulness.
So perhaps the Baelnorn state is the 'ultimate sacrifice': they turn to unlife to remove the compulsion to go to Arvandor, and also the need to sleep for longer periods of time (Baelnorn need no sleep). This seems to be a very noble and sad thing to do - to give up one's 'final rest'.
Maybe not all of the Elf is present in the Baelnorn form - perhaps the spirit has moved on, and what is left is the logical and physical aspects of the Elf's being. The few I've seen in novels are very methodical and nearly emotionless; they have a job to do and they do it. That may be a nice way of ironing-out the wrinkles, but it greatly detracts from the sacrifice they make (because they don't really make much sacrifice - whats left is an intelligent zombie, similar to the Animus in Greyhawk).
Do Baelnorn have Phylactories? If they don't, I may have hit upon the reason why. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jun 2013 12:17:38 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2013 : 12:48:39
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| AFAIK, Baelnorn don't have phylacteries. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2013 : 15:15:04
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| Yeah, IIRC the gods of the Seldarine keep them in a state of undeath. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 28 Jun 2013 15:15:34 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2013 : 16:51:41
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The Elders of their clan or sometimes the Seldarine themselves have to give a potential Baelnorn permission to become one.
Naturally-inclined elves can undergo magical rituals to live on after death as treants & female elves can also potentially become nymphs or dryads.
If Corellon or Labelas grants permission, an elf can also become a Reverend One - a petitioner allowed to return to Faerun to fight for its homeland from when it was alive. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2013 : 00:18:24
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I recall that all baelnorn carry (or at least have access to) tel'kiira gems to record their personalities and knowledge, apparently allowing them to resist the insanity caused by their unnatural isolation from elven reverie and communion. If so, then it's probable these gems also store their (un)living spirits.
The baelnorn page on FR Wiki states that some baelnorn use phylacteries and some do not. The 2E monster stats for baelnorn encounters state that they are a form of lich and will eventually reform when slain (like other liches) unless their spirit is given eternal rest. The only baelnorn stats I've seen published described one whose spirit was fully sustained and regenerated within the permanent field of effect of an elven mythal. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2013 : 00:38:24
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| "What in the Nine Hells do you mean "we have to destroy Myth Drannor" to kill this guy?!" |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Cbad285
Learned Scribe
160 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2013 : 02:22:20
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quote:
The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. I agree with some of the others. Use the Half-elf rules for aging.
I agree with the half-elf rules. AND more so the need of a body to last out the spirit. However I doubt this will come about, but I do like the idea of the 'curse' in being forced to live out the elven spirit while the body falls apart.
Fun Fact - The Ranger has recently duel-classed into a priest. So this may open some new doors as to life, longevity and passing on.
btw great replies guys :) |
"Beware the Dream Fever!" |
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A question for the sages...
