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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Jun 2013 : 06:40:03
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I know Mephistopheles ate some of Mask Divine Shard, but in what way did he actually benefit from it?
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2013 : 06:47:19
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He did become more powerful. Almost enough to challenge Asmodeus. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2013 : 11:59:57
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| But that was before Asomedeus ascended to godhood himself. Nowadays I would say that aside form the power boost it gave him ,Masks divine shard is more of a liability than anything else because all it does is draw the baleful attention of Asmodeus and other gods. |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2013 : 19:06:18
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| Where can I read up on this, I don't remember it in the cale books. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2013 : 19:18:33
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Silverwolfer, read his Cycle of Night trilogy: Shadowborn, Shadowstorm, and Shadowrealm. His upcoming novel, The Godborn, is going to build on those.
Dennis, if you read the Mephistopheles excerpt on Kemp's site, it becomes confusing. Kesson Rel was only a demigod (basically a rogue Chosen like Sammaster). Mephistopheles ends up with 1/3 of Kesson's power. In the excerpt, he laments that Asmodeus has become a full god, and plans to kill Drasek Riven and Rivalen Tanthul so he face Asmodeus on equal footing.
We know that Asmodeus is a Greater God these days. How can retrieving the full power of a demigod possibly put Mephistopheles on par with Asmodeus? Kemp is an excellent writer, but I feel like FR's rules about divine power aren't very clear. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2013 : 20:40:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Kesson Rel was only a demigod (basically a rogue Chosen like Sammaster).
Actually he only was a quasi-deity, one step even below a demigod (however above the usual chosen).
I think the FR authors needs to get together and work out strict guidelines how to handle deities.
I like Kemp's attitude of even a quasi-deity or a being with just a fraction of a quasi-deities essence as a being of incredible awe and power to be the best, but it's clashing with how more powerful deities are handled (I say ridiculed) by other authors.
If Szass can manhandle greater deities while Telamont is unsure how much he might be able to hurt a quasi-deity before he goes down himself, that simply does not fit well together (unless they wanted to state that Szass is so much more powerful than Telamont and could basically at any time take over Netheril)
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2013 : 02:03:37
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| I've read that seris, but from I understand at the end of the trio, it does not cover how it increase meph abilties. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2013 : 05:50:39
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Well as far as increasing Meph's abilities, they certainly benefit from a divine spark boost. I have to agree with Lilian and Mirtek. Even with the full divine power of Kesson Rel, that fellow was only quasi-divine.
However maybe with his own archdevil powers, the divine spark and Meph's followers/believers across the various planes could very well catapult him to at least a lesser deity.
Fun fact: Szass actually knew he could not beat Bane. At the very least Szass stated he could bloody Bane's nose while the Lord of Darkness could eradicate Szass. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2013 : 05:51:05
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Sorry double post |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Edited by - Xar Zarath on 10 Jun 2013 05:51:29 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2013 : 07:57:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar ZarathFun fact: Szass actually knew he could not beat Bane. At the very least Szass stated he could bloody Bane's nose while the Lord of Darkness could eradicate Szass.
Thing is that Szass knew he could at least bloody one of the most powerfull greater deities in the pantheon, while Telamont is wondering how much he might be able to hurt the least powerful quasi deity in the pantheon. By this comparison Szass has to be much more powerful than Telamont.
And then there are the things the scene between Szass and Bane implicates. If Szass can bloody Bane, how much more can he do to Umberlee for example? And then how much could Larloch then do to Bane (or to Umberlee)?
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2013 : 08:30:56
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| Well if you can do a magic spell that can screw up the the magical webbing system , maybe you can do a magical spell to mess other things up. Remember the mad mage(which greenwood wrote) caste a spell of forgetfulness against Amadeus and WORKED! |
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Darsson Spellmaker
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2013 : 11:21:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Kemp is an excellent writer, but I feel like FR's rules about divine power aren't very clear.
I don't think it's so much a problem with FR's rules about divine power so much as it is that the people of Toril, even the most learned sage, don't fully know everything there is to know about the divine and the powers/abilities that come with it.
Unlike us, they don't have copies of Deities & Demigods and Faiths & Pantheons to tell them exactly what a given god or goddess might or might not be capable of.
To a loremaster, who has read only the myths and legends concerning the gods, what's there to help him distinguish the power of a greater god from that of an intermediate god? Godly powers should all pretty much look the same to him; they're all powerful miracles beyond his understanding.
So I think all the speculation the characters engage in when it comes to divine power should be understood that they are reasoning and coming up with answers based on their incomplete and/or flawed understanding of the nature of the godly powers. |
"Know, O mages, that there is learning, and there is wisdom, and they are very far from being the same thing."--Azuth the High One, Utterances from the Altar: Collected Verbal Manifestations of the Divine and Most Holy Lord of Spells (holy chapbook, assembled by anonymous priests of Azuth circa 1358 DR)
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2013 : 12:45:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Silverwolfer, read his Cycle of Night trilogy: Shadowborn, Shadowstorm, and Shadowrealm. His upcoming novel, The Godborn, is going to build on those.
Dennis, if you read the Mephistopheles excerpt on Kemp's site, it becomes confusing. Kesson Rel was only a demigod (basically a rogue Chosen like Sammaster). Mephistopheles ends up with 1/3 of Kesson's power. In the excerpt, he laments that Asmodeus has become a full god, and plans to kill Drasek Riven and Rivalen Tanthul so he face Asmodeus on equal footing.
We know that Asmodeus is a Greater God these days. How can retrieving the full power of a demigod possibly put Mephistopheles on par with Asmodeus? Kemp is an excellent writer, but I feel like FR's rules about divine power aren't very clear.
You meant The Twilight War trilogy. Cycle of Night was supposed to be the sequel trilogy that eventually got condensed into one book: The Godborn.
I read all the excerpts, that is why I emphasized almost. Or perhaps I should have changed that to not even close because you were right, a powerboost from a godling is hardly enough to level up with the Lord of the Ninth who has recently absorbed all the essence of a lesser deity (as opposed to just a demigod). All this might be moot come 5E, I suppose. With the return of Mystra, she might want her only loyal deity-ally back, and would (likely) just have Azzy vomit the essence of Azuth. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 10 Jun 2013 13:13:32 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2013 : 12:56:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
If Szass can manhandle greater deities while Telamont is unsure how much he might be able to hurt a quasi-deity before he goes down himself, that simply does not fit well together (unless they wanted to state that Szass is so much more powerful than Telamont and could basically at any time take over Netheril)
If you can remember, I have touched on this same matter in another thread. He would not have allowed Rivalen to take the third of Kesson Rel’s divinity without having contingencies to protect himself and his throne that would otherwise have easily been usurped by his son. And in the latest excerpt of The Godborn, when Rivalen said he was beyond his father now, Telamont just said, “You are mistaken.”
It is important to look back on the background of the Most High . . . He is hardly the most powerful being in Toril, but what he’s achieved and has become speaks greatly of why a powerboost from a godling’s essence is not enough to shake him. And likely, he’ll make Rivalen realize this, once his patience runs out (and by the look of things, that means soon). |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2013 : 16:55:50
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Well if you can do a magic spell that can screw up the the magical webbing system , maybe you can do a magical spell to mess other things up. Remember the mad mage(which greenwood wrote) caste a spell of forgetfulness against Amadeus and WORKED!
Mystra did that. A greater deity could at best momentarily distract Asmodeus, giving her time to get what she came for and escape Hell. Why Asmodeus would even remotely be interested in divinity in 4e in-game (as opposed to making him divine because 4e core had him divine) is an awkward question given pre-4e continuity.
That said, different authors have taken incredibly different perspectives on the power of archdevils versus gods (ranging from being more powerful than deities while within or native plane, or completely below anything with divinity). Generally speaking though, mortals have almost always been considered pests at most to both archfiends and deities alike, except under exceedingly unique circumstances.
I'm inclined to go with the Planescape continuity on the topic (which also extends into sources in 3e), with archfiends and such planar powers being more powerful than gods while on their home plane, but likewise less powerful outside of those realms. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2013 : 19:04:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
If Szass can manhandle greater deities while Telamont is unsure how much he might be able to hurt a quasi-deity before he goes down himself, that simply does not fit well together (unless they wanted to state that Szass is so much more powerful than Telamont and could basically at any time take over Netheril)
If you can remember, I have touched on this same matter in another thread. He would not have allowed Rivalen to take the third of Kesson Rel’s divinity without having contingencies to protect himself and his throne that would otherwise have easily been usurped by his son. And in the latest excerpt of The Godborn, when Rivalen said he was beyond his father now, Telamont just said, “You are mistaken.”
It is important to look back on the background of the Most High . . . He is hardly the most powerful being in Toril, but what he’s achieved and has become speaks greatly of why a powerboost from a godling’s essence is not enough to shake him. And likely, he’ll make Rivalen realize this, once his patience runs out (and by the look of things, that means soon).
That doesn't mean Telamont is more powerful -- he may have other contingencies that have nothing to do with arcane might. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2013 : 19:22:00
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Like what? A pail of garlic? Last time I checked, Rivalen is no vampire.
Seriously, though, the excerpt already hints at it. Besides, the only logical contingency of a being of pure arcane might is arcane magic itself. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2013 : 20:02:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Like what? A pail of garlic? Last time I checked, Rivalen is no vampire.
Seriously, though, the excerpt already hints at it. Besides, the only logical contingency of a being of pure arcane might is arcane magic itself.
Not at all. A previously-placed geas preventing certain actions could readily neutralize Rivalen. There could also be arcane equivalents of some things seen in other books and movies, in other genres: a lingering poison (perhaps a two-part one; the first part has already been administered and both parts are inert until combined), some sort of looming death magic (that will go off if a command word is given, or that will go off if it's not given frequently, etc), a "kill switch" such as the one used on River Tam in Serenity, etc. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2013 : 20:09:48
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Past and present lore never indicated that Telamont ever used mundane contingencies. And I see no reason why that would change in 5E. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2013 : 20:43:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Past and present lore never indicated that Telamont ever used mundane contingencies. And I see no reason why that would change in 5E.
Is there anything that indicates he does not use such contingencies?
I'm sure past and present lore has never addressed the topic of his underwear, but that doesn't mean he's always going commando. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 Jun 2013 20:43:45 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2013 : 21:03:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
when Rivalen said he was beyond his father now, Telamont just said, “You are mistaken.”
That's what he said to his son because he couldn't afford to show weakness, but inwardly he was wondering whether or not Rivalen was actually mistaken. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12028 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2013 : 23:48:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Xar ZarathFun fact: Szass actually knew he could not beat Bane. At the very least Szass stated he could bloody Bane's nose while the Lord of Darkness could eradicate Szass.
Thing is that Szass knew he could at least bloody one of the most powerfull greater deities in the pantheon, while Telamont is wondering how much he might be able to hurt the least powerful quasi deity in the pantheon. By this comparison Szass has to be much more powerful than Telamont.
And then there are the things the scene between Szass and Bane implicates. If Szass can bloody Bane, how much more can he do to Umberlee for example? And then how much could Larloch then do to Bane (or to Umberlee)?
Um, anyone here heard of hubris, pride, an overfilled cup of self-worth? Szass Tam didn't KNOW anything. I mean, since when has Tam EVER fought a god. Telamont's been around longer and probably is just a better judge of his powers. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2013 : 01:12:43
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Wizard 20
Archmage 5
Shadow Adept 10
is telth
Necromancer 10
Red Wizard 17
Archmage 2
is saz according to splat books. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2013 : 03:11:44
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Personally I dont think any non divine being should be able to directly harm a lesser or greater level god....
Even Larloch... |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2013 : 06:11:34
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| oddly enough, according to 3e, telth is stronger then larloch |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2013 : 07:46:05
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Um, anyone here heard of hubris, pride, an overfilled cup of self-worth? Szass Tam didn't KNOW anything. I mean, since when has Tam EVER fought a god. Telamont's been around longer and probably is just a better judge of his powers.
Unfortunately for this explanation we have the fact that mere moments before Szass already dragged Bane against his will out of his own divine realm and bound him with wards that were actually holding when Bane immediately attempted to leave 
Worse was that he did all that while his magic was compromised and his demand to Bane was "tell me how to fix my magic", when this broken magic was already powerful enough to summon and bind Bane. 
Bane, and with him greater deities in general, are simply not treated with any respect in this novels. Later we have the badass scene when Bane interrupts the meeting of the remaining zulkirs, only to have any bad-assness ruined when Bane out of the blue admits that it wasn't just a badass way to appear before them, but a backdoor he needed because he would otherwise be unable to slip through the wards around the fortress in which they were meeting  |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2013 : 12:44:30
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Personally I dont think any non divine being should be able to directly harm a lesser or greater level god....
Even Larloch...
Personally, I think otherwise. Gods, as the Netherese aptly put it, are just overpowered archwizards. And remember that some of them used to be mere mortals as well. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2013 : 12:55:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
When Rivalen said he was beyond his father now, Telamont just said, “You are mistaken.”
That’s what he said to his son because he could’t afford to show weakness, but inwardly he was wondering whether or not Rivalen was actually mistaken.
That remains to be seen. I personally would not like to see Paul disregard Telamont’s background just because he has to put some plot armor on Rivalen so he (and Mephistopheles) could be the personal enemy of Cale, son, and company. I already mentioned why a puny powerboost from a godling is or should never be enough to outmatch Telamont—unless he’s afflicted by some unknown magical malady that eats away his power reserve every waking moment of his existence. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2013 : 13:08:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Past and present lore never indicated that Telamont ever used mundane contingencies. And I see no reason why that would change in 5E.
Is there anything that indicates he does not use such contingencies?
Whenever he or his city faced a serious threat, it was magic, always magic, that enabled him to repel it. When the Chosen attacked Shade and the city nearly fell, he used everything in his power to regain control of the mythallar. When the Lord of the Eighth appeared in Shade and shook its foundations, it was the magic of his person, of his archwizards, and of the mythallar that bound the archfiend. And in the excerpt of The Godborn from last month, it was protective magic he tried to avoid summoning when Rivalen appeared in his library in all his arrogant glory. If he had some mundane contingencies in place, that should have been the first thought that came to his mind when Rivalen seemed to appear as a threat to him, as any sane, intelligent, and cunning millennia-old archwizard would think when he thinks he’s in danger.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm sure past and present lore has never addressed the topic of his underwear, but that doesn't mean he's always going commando.
Irrelevant. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 11 Jun 2013 13:21:36 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2013 : 15:46:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Past and present lore never indicated that Telamont ever used mundane contingencies. And I see no reason why that would change in 5E.
Is there anything that indicates he does not use such contingencies?
Whenever he or his city faced a serious threat, it was magic, always magic, that enabled him to repel it. When the Chosen attacked Shade and the city nearly fell, he used everything in his power to regain control of the mythallar. When the Lord of the Eighth appeared in Shade and shook its foundations, it was the magic of his person, of his archwizards, and of the mythallar that bound the archfiend. And in the excerpt of The Godborn from last month, it was protective magic he tried to avoid summoning when Rivalen appeared in his library in all his arrogant glory. If he had some mundane contingencies in place, that should have been the first thought that came to his mind when Rivalen seemed to appear as a threat to him, as any sane, intelligent, and cunning millennia-old archwizard would think when he thinks he’s in danger.
He knows for a fact that magic can end. If all he relies on is magic, he's a bigger fool than Karsus.
And mundane contingencies wouldn't necessarily be the first thing someone so reliant on magic should think of -- of course he'll think of magic, first. But if he has any shred of intelligence, he'll have other methods in place. No intelligent ruler relies on a single thing for all of his protection.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm sure past and present lore has never addressed the topic of his underwear, but that doesn't mean he's always going commando.
Irrelevant.
Not at all. You're saying it's never been in past lore, so that means it doesn't exist. I'm pointing out that prior lore does not cover every single thing.
All we can assume from the lack of mention of mundane contingencies is that either he hasn't had to resort to them, or that those occasions when he did weren't noteworthy.
Or we can assume he's an overconfident fool who, like Karsus, is so blinded by his own inflated self-worth that he doesn't consider any other possibilities, despite having seen that such can be necessary. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2013 : 16:45:41
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Or he’s wise enough to realize that if magic cannot provide his desired protection, then no mundane means ever could . . .
A source of magic may end, but not magic itself. The Weave and the Shadow Weave are just two sources of arcane magic. The Imaskari themselves found other sources in some unnamed planes (as mentioned in Richard Baker’s The Shadow Stone). So really, if he’s so inclined to protect himself no matter what happens to the two primary sources of magic in Toril, he’d probably delve into some other sources. Or maybe he already did, and that explains why Shade remains practically intact despite the destruction of the Shadow Weave during the Spellplague.
You think that wizards are fools to rely solely on magic as their contingency. By that reasoning, you’d be labeling Larloch himself a fool for creating the Blueflame magic items as part of his contingencies, which eventually he made use of. I seriously doubt Ed intends to make Larloch look, sound, and act like a fool. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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how did Mephistopheles benefit from Mask Div Shard
