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Brunswick
Acolyte
Ireland
21 Posts |
 Posted - 23 May 2013 : 22:24:49
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Hiya everyone,
I know that "officially" Tilverton is gone from the Realms but, in my campaign, Tilverton is surrounded by a huge globe of shadows and the players believe (from cryptic realms rumours I have given them) that "something" has happened to Tilverton rather than it being destroyed. The group is 8th Level now (Pathfinder system) and the player characters are talking about "saving" Tilverton (the family of one of the PCs is from there).
I have the shell of an idea about what happened to Tilverton in my campaign. It (somehow) got "transferred" across to Ravenloft and it is now a domain in its own right in the Domain of Dread. The people living in the Ravenloft version of Tilverton (I'm gonna call it Silvermourn) have got falsified memories and they believe that they have lived in Silvermourn all their lives and they wont recognise the party as being part of their city. The city itself will be changed as well and look VERY gothic in style, with mist, shadows, etc., but it will not be, as such, an evil place.
That's about as far as I have got with the background to the adventure but I'm stumped where to go next. I'm racking my brains for the answers to two questions.
1. Who is in control of Silvermourn and what is he trying to do? He certainly doesnt want "his" city returning to its original plane.
2. The PCs want to "save" Tilverton and that basically means figuring out a way to transport the city back to Faerun. The question is, how do they do this? I'd really like to come up with something original for this but I cant think of anything.
Can anyone help?
Thanks,
Bruns. 
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2013 : 23:25:03
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My, My My, an interesting problem indeed.
Problems you present, transformed residents, transformed city and how to rescue this all at Level 8.
It would take a few number of wishes I would think, at level 8 a few wishes are hard to come by.
Who became in charge of Silvermourn likely a lich or powerful vampire, very unlikely any power center of Good.
To save Tilverton clearly it would require a Quest, artifact and divine power I would think.
It clearly is hard to help fully without knowing all the details. The Quest however might be able to rise the party level to something like 15 or might even require Epic levels.
Things you need are portal (large items), cure disease (fix mind control of many), killing leader of this city. Planer travel might be a slightly better way to start, rescue a few, scout out the city. Surviving that and growth in level, might in time allow restoration. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2013 : 04:10:19
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| High Priest Gharri of Gond used to be leader of Tilverton. I want to say he was 15th level, but I can't remember if he ever had any official stats. I'd make him some sort of undead version who has some weird Gond like spell-engine or gear contraption that holds the entire city in Ravenloft. Gharri must tend to the machine or maybe it's multiple machines. Have the PC's interfere and have those machines malfunction and townspeople being regaining their memories. After an epic battle with Gharri have the PC's run those gears in reverse and get the city transported back to Faerun. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2013 : 11:04:02
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You may have to move some things around to make this work, but...
I think the perfect person to be the "Dark Lord" of "Silvermourn" is Vangerdahast. Keep in mind that Tilverton was destroyed in canon when the shadow weave magic of the shades came into contact with the light artifact crafted by him. He was hoping to use it to destroy them completely. Obviously, he failed. (NOTE: I haven't read the Return of the Archwizards Trilogy nor Elminster's Daughter - so it's possible that I'm getting some lore here wrong.)
So, instead of having him retire just have everyone think he died along with everyone else during the destruction of Tilverton.
If he hasn't retired in your Realms, or the players still know he's alive and active - hell, even if they have done some work for him - that isn't a major problem. Because you see, that wasn't really Vangey. Dun, dun, dun, dun! 
What exists in his place is really a doppelganger that works for the Shades. He's been magically enhanced to help him pass very effectively, and have been working undercover for some time secretly spreading the tendrils of the Shades throughout Cormyr.
This raises the stakes for the players enormously. It's no longer about just saving a single town, it's about trying to save the entire kingdom.
As for the real Vangey, well... the Dark Power's firmly have him within their grasp. He believes that all of Cormyr, and perhaps most of the Heartlands has been destroyed. He believes that he's been able to save only this single town - this one tiny aspect of the country he loves so deeply. Vangey has always been willing to sacrifice anything, even anyone, to protect Cormyr. Everything he did was for Cormyr, and this place - this Silvermourn - it's all he has left.
And of course, the Dark Power's constantly taunt him. The threats against Silvermourn are never ending, and Vangey is constantly being overwhelmed. He is plagued with an endless sense of failure and loss, but too afraid to let go and lose what little he has left so he keeps fighting knowing that eventually, someday, he will lose even this last remaining bit of his beloved Cormyr.
The Dark Power's should play constantly on Vangey's weaknesses - his love of intrigue, the desire to know absolutely EVERYTHING going on, the need to be the center of things, and the need to ALWAYS be in control. These are all failings that Ed has outlined about the character himself, failings that Elminster noticed in him. And one of the major sticking points (and souring) of their relationship was El constantly pointing out these flaws - in particular his need to know everything going on, to the point that he'd constantly crush and ruin shy or paranoid peoples by repeatedly violating their privacy. His need to be in control also, at least in Elminster's eye, was actively hampering the necessary personal growth of the Obarskyrs - both King Azoun IV as well as any who might be destined to sit on the throne. In fact, Elminster felt that Vangey was making Cormyr far too dependent upon him...
Basically, what I'm saying - all of this is true - and the Dark Power's have taken these failings and turned them up to eleven.
If the PC's want to free Vangey from his imprisonment by the Dark Powers, they're going to have to get Vangey to let go - to get him to stop trying to be a hero, and instead turn the fate of Silvermourn over to its people. Let them defend their home, and stop trying to take responsibility of it for them.
By letting go of Silvermourn, acknowledging at some point it's people will have to be able to defend themselves, he - and the people there - will be free.
Naturally, of course, the people of Silvermourn will be as helpless and dependent upon him as newborn children. Yet, they will always appear genuinely thankful for everything he does for them. He's their hero, their savior, the one man who holds the whole place together.
...and of course, if the PC's try to convince him to cease helping them, and instead encourage them to start to stand on their own... they won't take kindly to that. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2013 : 13:19:29
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Tilverton went to Ravenloft.... thats BRILLIANT! [insert 'Applause' smiley]
The only thing I dislike about your idea is that the city itself changed, or rather, the architecture. I would have it keep its FR/Cormyr 'feel', but then make it all 'dark and shadowy'. Ravenloft has enough of the Gothic stuff - why make it like the rest?
Otherwise, absolutely brilliant. This would be an insanely great way to return Tilverton to us (one of the few 3e pieces of lore I hate... but then again, I dislike everything that revolved around RotAW).
As for your question, I also like where Aldrick was going. Its sounds like a different take on the plot from Death of the Dragon (Vangy being trapped in another dimension and trying to find his way out, all the while having to be careful about the magic he uses, lest he makes things worse).
Even though he isn't the real Vangerdehast, he would still be the PC's best hope of getting Tilverton back to Cormyr, but they would also have to be ready to double-cross him (if they realize he isn't the real Vangy). At the same time, the Doppleganger will be planning a double-cross of his own.
What that means is that a fairly low-level party can do high-level things, simply because they are facilitating the main NPC (who is the only one that need have the actual power to do the transfer). I'm not a big fan of 'making him see the light' (Dopplegangers EAT people, after all), but he should be working on his own way home, perhaps even needing some sort of artifact (the Heart of Cormyr?)
So, the PCs could be collecting various 'ingredients' for some spell to get them all home, which will be performed by the fake Vangy... and they all have to watch their back, all the time. There should also be at east one other 'agent' working against all of them (maybe something that was in Tilverton all along, like a Werewolf, who likes his new home).
Lots of fun to be had here, especially if they need to travel to Hazlan for the artifact they need. Don't forget to allow them to visit other famous locales in RL, otherwise you may as well have just dumped Tilverton into a pocket-plane. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 May 2013 13:20:24 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2013 : 14:06:49
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| Make "Vangey" a Malaugrym... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2013 : 14:15:32
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Maluagrym hate the Shades... but then again, that might make all of this more interesting.
Great idea. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2013 : 00:26:52
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Yeah, I really love this idea by Brunswick to place Tilverton in Ravenloft as well. It meshes so nicely with what happened to Elminster when his magic interacted with the Shadow Weave. After all, unless I'm mistaken, that's how he ended up trapped in the Hells.
It would make since because Vangey had an artifact of great power. That easily explains why what happened would be strong enough to pull an entire city into another plane of existence. Except instead of falling into the Hells like Elminster did he (and the entire city) was taken to Ravenloft.
This idea can even be used by DM's who want to play games long after the Spellplague. It's a great way to keep Vangey alive - as a Dark Lord, the Dark power's aren't going to let him die. All they need to do is wave their hand and say that everyone suspected that Vangey died during the destruction of Tilverton.
Markustay -
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, or you're misunderstanding me. I wasn't suggesting the Vangey in Ravenloft to be a doppelganger. I was giving a suggestion on how to reconcile things if Brunswick had already introduced and used Vangey prior to them entering Ravenloft.
After all, if they had spoken to Vangey in Cormyr, it's difficult to explain how and why he's been trapped in Ravenloft. The easy explanation is just to say the Vangey in Cormyr is fake and the one in Ravenloft is the real Vangey.
No one in Cormyr would realize that they're dealing with a fake Vangey (in large part due to the support from the Princes of Shade and their powerful magic - helping him pass VERY well). Thus, when the PC's enter Ravenloft to save Tilverton (and of course become trapped there by the Dark Powers), they'll be the only ones with the information that the Vangey in Cormyr is fake. Knowing that the Vangey in Cormyr is fake raises the stakes greatly, and makes their mission to save Tilverton even more important. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2013 : 03:07:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Make "Vangey" a Malaugrym...
It's probably indicative of how my mind works, but at this very moment... the notion of Tilverton falling into the Realm of Dread and the fate of Vangerdahast would come to equal Tilverton becoming a Dark Domain with a [SPOILERS for Elminster's Daughter] steel dragon Vangerdahast as it's Darklord. 
I need to work this up! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Brunswick
Acolyte
Ireland
21 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2013 : 10:11:46
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| Thanks everyone for the ideas and kind words. Aldrick, you Sir are a genius! :) *doffs hat* |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2013 : 14:38:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, or you're misunderstanding me. I wasn't suggesting the Vangey in Ravenloft to be a doppelganger. I was giving a suggestion on how to reconcile things if Brunswick had already introduced and used Vangey prior to them entering Ravenloft.
I had first responded after only reading part of your post. Then I went back and read the rest, but out-of-order... I must have missed something. Regardless I went back and edited my post with the Vangy/doppleganger stuff, not fully understanding your intent.
I guess I was so titillated by the prospect of Tilverton having gone to Ravenloft, I just ignored everything else.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 May 2013 14:40:53 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2013 : 15:06:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I guess I was so titillated by the prospect of Tilverton having gone to Ravenloft, I just ignored everything else.
That is a REALLY COOL IDEA. I dont blame you... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2013 : 15:49:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I had first responded after only reading part of your post. Then I went back and read the rest, but out-of-order... I must have missed something. Regardless I went back and edited my post with the Vangy/doppleganger stuff, not fully understanding your intent.
I guess I was so titillated by the prospect of Tilverton having gone to Ravenloft, I just ignored everything else.
I went back and re-read my post twice wondering if it seemed confusing.
But yeah, I think that was pretty much everyone's response: "Holy crap! That's brilliant... why didn't I think to toss Tilverton in Ravenloft?!"
Then when I saw that Brunswick hadn't figured out who the Dark Lord should be... well, it just made too much sense for it not to be Vangerdehast.
It all works so perfectly, and it's better than how things turned out in canon. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 26 May 2013 15:50:08 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2013 : 17:10:45
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Well, lets all hope 'the powers that be' are still around and listening. A (fan-based) idea that EVERYONE agrees is chock-full of awesome shouldn't be ignored.
Imagine if the storyline ends with Tilverton's return... but it brought something back with it. 
Cormyr will never be same........ |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2013 : 17:46:40
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Unfortunately, Vangey's fate is pretty well sealed in canon I think. 
From what I gathered he transformed into a dragon. He was placed in stasis, and would be released from it should a time come when he needed to defend Cormyr. (Information found in Elminster's Daughter.)
Sometime between that happening and 4th Edition dragon-Vangey died, and now continues to live on as a wraith-like being in the Royal Palace. (Information found in Elminster Must Die.)
I haven't read either of these, so maybe someone else can fill in the details. But that's Vangey's fate in canon, which is pretty underwhelming for such an awesome character.
Of course, based on the stuff Ed has said in the past, it's pretty clear that he didn't intend Vangey to go out like that...
quote:
I agree with you here, and felt the same way. I've been trying to show the differences in the "three most-onstage crotchety old controlling wizards of the Realms" (in descending order: Elminster, Khelben, and Vangerdahast) for some years (in part because several TSR designers wanted to butcher at least two of three for no better reason than "they're too much alike!"). So they couldn't all stay "gruff old coots who always have something up their sleeves, are always right, and have hearts of gold and loins of 'ahem.'" Steven Schend took over Khelben, I was given the opportunity to deepen Elminster in novels (and told that if I didn't, someone else would be asked to write the Elminster books!), and the development of Vangey got left to the Cormyr saga and short stories if I cared to. I snuck some Vangey development into ELMINSTER IN HELL, the WotC designers sidelined Vangey anyway in the FRCS and put Caladnei (their invention) in his place, and I was given the "tell his end story, okay?" suggestion, which went into ELMINSTER'S DAUGHTER.
At this point, it'll be difficult to undo what happened to Tilverton canonically. Because, honestly even if Vangey isn't the Dark Lord - I'm not sure if it matters if the city comes back well over 100 years since it first disappeared... unless it was bringing something horrible back with it to terrorize Cormyr. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2013 : 19:34:20
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Perhaps 'several somethings'. Ravenloft is a veritable buffet of horror - it would be a neat way to bring RL elements directly into FR (and maybe even leave some sort of unstable portal around - something I think The Shades would be very interested in). That would mean RL stuff could be trickling into FR, and you could possibly wrap an entire adventure arc just around that. Someone has to close that tear in reality before all Hell break loose (quite literally).
Ahhhhh... Vecna in Cormyr... it would be like a dream (nightmare?) come true for me.
I wonder what Szass Tam and Larloch would think of THAT development.
Anyhow, this wouldn't be the old Tilverton. In name perhaps, and some things might be familiar. But a century or so in the Domains of dread would make the place very dark & sinister indeed. You'd also have a population that would probably feel very bitter against Cormyr - they would feel their grandparents were somehow 'abandoned'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 May 2013 14:43:41 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2013 : 20:10:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
You may have to move some things around to make this work, but...
I think the perfect person to be the "Dark Lord" of "Silvermourn" is Vangerdahast. Keep in mind that Tilverton was destroyed in canon when the shadow weave magic of the shades came into contact with the light artifact crafted by him. He was hoping to use it to destroy them completely. Obviously, he failed. (NOTE: I haven't read the Return of the Archwizards Trilogy nor Elminster's Daughter - so it's possible that I'm getting some lore here wrong.)
So, instead of having him retire just have everyone think he died along with everyone else during the destruction of Tilverton.
If he hasn't retired in your Realms, or the players still know he's alive and active - hell, even if they have done some work for him - that isn't a major problem. Because you see, that wasn't really Vangey. Dun, dun, dun, dun!
What exists in his place is really a doppelganger that works for the Shades. He's been magically enhanced to help him pass very effectively, and have been working undercover for some time secretly spreading the tendrils of the Shades throughout Cormyr.
This raises the stakes for the players enormously. It's no longer about just saving a single town, it's about trying to save the entire kingdom.
As for the real Vangey, well... the Dark Power's firmly have him within their grasp. He believes that all of Cormyr, and perhaps most of the Heartlands has been destroyed. He believes that he's been able to save only this single town - this one tiny aspect of the country he loves so deeply. Vangey has always been willing to sacrifice anything, even anyone, to protect Cormyr. Everything he did was for Cormyr, and this place - this Silvermourn - it's all he has left.
And of course, the Dark Power's constantly taunt him. The threats against Silvermourn are never ending, and Vangey is constantly being overwhelmed. He is plagued with an endless sense of failure and loss, but too afraid to let go and lose what little he has left so he keeps fighting knowing that eventually, someday, he will lose even this last remaining bit of his beloved Cormyr.
The Dark Power's should play constantly on Vangey's weaknesses - his love of intrigue, the desire to know absolutely EVERYTHING going on, the need to be the center of things, and the need to ALWAYS be in control. These are all failings that Ed has outlined about the character himself, failings that Elminster noticed in him. And one of the major sticking points (and souring) of their relationship was El constantly pointing out these flaws - in particular his need to know everything going on, to the point that he'd constantly crush and ruin shy or paranoid peoples by repeatedly violating their privacy. His need to be in control also, at least in Elminster's eye, was actively hampering the necessary personal growth of the Obarskyrs - both King Azoun IV as well as any who might be destined to sit on the throne. In fact, Elminster felt that Vangey was making Cormyr far too dependent upon him...
Basically, what I'm saying - all of this is true - and the Dark Power's have taken these failings and turned them up to eleven.
If the PC's want to free Vangey from his imprisonment by the Dark Powers, they're going to have to get Vangey to let go - to get him to stop trying to be a hero, and instead turn the fate of Silvermourn over to its people. Let them defend their home, and stop trying to take responsibility of it for them.
By letting go of Silvermourn, acknowledging at some point it's people will have to be able to defend themselves, he - and the people there - will be free.
Naturally, of course, the people of Silvermourn will be as helpless and dependent upon him as newborn children. Yet, they will always appear genuinely thankful for everything he does for them. He's their hero, their savior, the one man who holds the whole place together.
...and of course, if the PC's try to convince him to cease helping them, and instead encourage them to start to stand on their own... they won't take kindly to that.
wow, loving this |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2013 : 20:23:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Unfortunately, Vangey's fate is pretty well sealed in canon I think.
From what I gathered he transformed into a dragon. He was placed in stasis, and would be released from it should a time come when he needed to defend Cormyr. (Information found in Elminster's Daughter.)
Sometime between that happening and 4th Edition dragon-Vangey died, and now continues to live on as a wraith-like being in the Royal Palace. (Information found in Elminster Must Die.)
I haven't read either of these, so maybe someone else can fill in the details. But that's Vangey's fate in canon, which is pretty underwhelming for such an awesome character.
Of course, based on the stuff Ed has said in the past, it's pretty clear that he didn't intend Vangey to go out like that...
quote:
I agree with you here, and felt the same way. I've been trying to show the differences in the "three most-onstage crotchety old controlling wizards of the Realms" (in descending order: Elminster, Khelben, and Vangerdahast) for some years (in part because several TSR designers wanted to butcher at least two of three for no better reason than "they're too much alike!"). So they couldn't all stay "gruff old coots who always have something up their sleeves, are always right, and have hearts of gold and loins of 'ahem.'" Steven Schend took over Khelben, I was given the opportunity to deepen Elminster in novels (and told that if I didn't, someone else would be asked to write the Elminster books!), and the development of Vangey got left to the Cormyr saga and short stories if I cared to. I snuck some Vangey development into ELMINSTER IN HELL, the WotC designers sidelined Vangey anyway in the FRCS and put Caladnei (their invention) in his place, and I was given the "tell his end story, okay?" suggestion, which went into ELMINSTER'S DAUGHTER.
At this point, it'll be difficult to undo what happened to Tilverton canonically. Because, honestly even if Vangey isn't the Dark Lord - I'm not sure if it matters if the city comes back well over 100 years since it first disappeared... unless it was bringing something horrible back with it to terrorize Cormyr.
Actually, he's not a wraith, he's some kind of spider-hand walking around. So, what if whenever Tilverton went elsewhere, the "wonky" magic of the situation somehow "split" Vangerdahast's mind and the "doppelganger" idea is also true as Vangey's mind was imprinted upon this being of power. However, instead of a doppelganger its some kind of shapechanger with immense flexibility in its shapechanging nature (such that it performed a "magic ritual" to turn itself into a "steel dragon"). Maybe it doesn't even REALIZE that its not Vangey, and maybe the current spider-hand thing is just because it can't figure out how to shapechange out of its current shape. Meanwhile, the real Vangey could be caught in Ravenloft. Just wondering, can anyone think of a shapechanger in print with this much flexibility? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2013 : 01:33:14
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The only issue I have with the idea of Vangey as a darklord is the fact that he's not really evil. I would personally do something like have the artifact have copied his personality, but twisted it to evil, with the artifact itself being the darklord.
Maybe the artifact was something wholly evil, before, but it was disguising its nature... It knew that if given a chance, it could twist someone into using it to save a town, but would instead destroy that town -- but the Shade's magic caused this to go awry, and gave Ravenloft's dark powers the chance they needed to grab the artifact and the surrounding area.
Going with something like this, the "darkVangey" (Vangerdark?) could be a copy of the original that believes it is the original, and that it's trapped inside the artifact. For the good of Cormyr, darkVangey is willing to do almost anything to go home... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Joebing
Learned Scribe
USA
202 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2013 : 04:07:49
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| This definitely makes sense. A great idea! I have been wondering how to handle a similar problem (the dark space where Tilverton was) since it vanished (my players hate being told that something has no answer). Having Vangey as the Darklord makes it all that much better. |
Now plugging away on mass conversion to 5e, as well as my imprint J. Halk Games.
http://www.facebook.com/JHalkGames
First adventure on DM Guild: Lair of Elaacrimalicros |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2013 : 11:12:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The only issue I have with the idea of Vangey as a darklord is the fact that he's not really evil.
Do you even have to be evil to be a dark lord? I realize that a lot of them *ARE* evil, but I didn't think it was a requirement. He's certainly not good aligned - he falls squarely within the neutral territory, and at times may even verge on the darker side of that...
quote:
...
It was important to me to NOT paint a picture of a one-dimensional villain, or a tyrant. Vangerdahast truly IS working for what he sees as the good of Cormyr: the country, not particular citizens or rulers. He isn't doing what he does because he WANTS to be ruler or wield all the power (and in fact resents the constant demands on his time, that rob him of any idleness, hobbies, vacations, or experimenting with spells): he just doesn't trust anyone else to do a better job. He grudgingly trusts Laspeera not to screw up while his back is turned (because he's measured her competence, personally made sure she has the experience, and has thoroughly mind-reamed her to be CERTAIN she's just as loyal to Cormyr as he is, and in the same way), and that's about it.
In short, the man's not evil. Authoritarian, manipulative, ruthless, scheming - - yes, all of these. He believes Cormyr is the best land in the Realms and offers its folk the best possible lives of any group of beings dwelling in Faerūn, and he wants to preserve it and cause it to flourish and remain sovereign and undivided, far into the future, at all costs.
He was quite capable of murdering royals and butchering nobles by the score to achieve his ends, promoting falsehoods and ruining reputations and all manner of lesser crimes - - in the same way (but not in the same manner or style of operation) as Khelben and Elminster do.
...
However, you then seemed to ignore the essential part of my earlier reply to you: "I'm NOT saying Vangey saw himself as a rightful ruler of Cormyr in any sense. He saw himself as the man best suited to rule, and tried to make Azoun IV better and better suited to rule, and at the same time worked to ensure that Azoun made the "right" decisions and gave the "right" decrees. "Right" in this case being what Vangey saw as right, of course. Vangerdahast saw himself as the TRUE ruler but not the RIGHTFUL ruler. In other words, it was his daily job to rule Cormyr from behind the scenes, and not get caught at it." to conclude: "This is confirmation that Vangey thinks of himself as the king de facto but not de jure - he readily enough assumes the power, just eschews the title, paraphenalia and acclaim."
Read my words again. You seem to want to paint Vangey as a Great Villain because he dared to think of himself as the right man for the realm. I'm trying to point out that he saw Azoun IV as incompetent, but almost competent, and that it was his (Vangey's) job to build him into a superb king while running the realm in the meantime, and that he neither deserved nor wanted the trappings of power. Because for him it wasn't about being 'top dog,' it was about being the best dog on the spot to do the job that had to be done. I'm not saying Vangey's performance was any more noble than a gangland boss, but his motives certainly were. Thus his essential tragedy: does the end justify the means?
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I stand by my comment that Vangey was, in his day, the true ruler of Cormyr. He trained Azoun IV, he influenced him greatly as a young man and so 'set' his thinking, he assisted him in accomplishing things Vangey saw as 'good' for the realm and even "rewarded" him by not standing in the way of any of his trysts (which Vangerdahast could have prevented, by spell and via the War Wizards), he to a very large extent controlled what information reached Azoun, and he was fully capable of, and practised in, magically dipping into Azoun's mind. In the event of a disagreement between them, this could instantly have become magical mind-control - - and remember, as I've emphasized from the first: Vangey PRETENDS to serve the monarch, but REALLY serves the realm. (In other words, he does what he sees as best for Cormyr. Not Azoun or any monarch.)
I think all of this is suitable enough to get Vangey a title as a Dark lord - or at least enough of something for the Dark Power's to exploit. (Oh how I would love to exploit such a character as the Dark Powers. ) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2013 : 14:15:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The only issue I have with the idea of Vangey as a darklord is the fact that he's not really evil.
Do you even have to be evil to be a dark lord? I realize that a lot of them *ARE* evil, but I didn't think it was a requirement. He's certainly not good aligned - he falls squarely within the neutral territory, and at times may even verge on the darker side of that...
As I recall, yes, you do have to be evil to be a darklord. The Dark Powers "reward" great evil by making people darklords -- but that reward is as much a curse as it is a blessing. Assuming he was evil enough for this, darklord Vangey would likely find himself in a place much like but not quite Cormyr, practically besieged by enemies within and without, where no matter what he did, he'd never be able to get the upper hand or hold it for very long.
For example, he'd have to work very, very hard to defeat this plot by the Black Network to supplant the king -- only to find out, after they had succeeded, that the whole thing was actually a plot by the Darksilver family to replace one of the king's strongest allies with their own puppet. And so on. The Dark Powers never give a darklord what he or she wants without tainting it or taking it away, immediately. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 May 2013 14:16:51 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2013 : 14:29:24
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Actually, an idea that just came to me... Maybe, instead of Vangey, it's a dark counterpart he never knew about -- his own personal Moriarty. (If you're not familiar with Sherlock Holmes, Professor James Moriarty was his evil counterpart, who worked against Holmes for some time before Holmes even knew of his existence)
In this case, his Moriarty is a renegade War Wizard or maybe even a bastard of Azoun, who has been working behind the scenes to put himself or his own "rightful heir" on the throne. Like Vangey, he's been spinning plots within plots, but his have been aimed at manipulating Vangey to do what Moriarty wants.
Perhaps the artifact Vangey used was supposed to backfire, and was supposed to weaken or even kill Vangey -- but then the Shade magic interfered, and Tilverton and Moriarty are now in Ravenloft. Now Moriarty is a darklord, but he's in the same situation as described in my post about darklord Vangey -- fighting desperately to protect and lead his realm, but never succeeding for long. He knows he's not in the real Cormyr, but there's just too much going on for him to really concentrate on escaping -- he's got to secure "Darkmyr" first, and it's never secure long enough for him to shift focus to escape.
Ooh, maybe this Moriarty feels he should have been picked to be the next Royal Wizard, and not Vangey! Mordahast, trying to discredit and/or get rid of Vangey so he can be the one to protect and guide Cormyr! |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 May 2013 14:31:38 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2013 : 14:54:30
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Actually, he's not a wraith, he's some kind of spider-hand walking around. So, what if whenever Tilverton went elsewhere, the "wonky" magic of the situation somehow "split" Vangerdahast's mind and the "doppelganger" idea is also true as Vangey's mind was imprinted upon this being of power. However, instead of a doppelganger its some kind of shapechanger with immense flexibility in its shapechanging nature (such that it performed a "magic ritual" to turn itself into a "steel dragon"). Maybe it doesn't even REALIZE that its not Vangey, and maybe the current spider-hand thing is just because it can't figure out how to shapechange out of its current shape. Meanwhile, the real Vangey could be caught in Ravenloft. Just wondering, can anyone think of a shapechanger in print with this much flexibility?
There is such a thing as a 'Greater Doppleganger' (it may have even been in the 2e FRMM).
We also have the Malaugrym, which has already been mentioned. Suppose either of those (or something else) absorbed/copied Vangy's memories, and somehow (the Spelllague?) the magic 'went on the fritz' (something fairly common in FR). It could have even been due to the tampering of the 'Dark Powers' (when they stole the real Vangy, the false one was somehow affected and no longer knows he is a fraud). LOts of ways to spin this - I really like it, and its fairly easy to modify the existing canon when your involving 'wild magic' AND Ravenloft (supposedly, according t the writers of DL, Soth never left DL - that was a copy).
In fact, there's even a canonical tie-in. There was a (Greater?) doppleganger posing as Elminster in Shadowdale, with a bunch of others in its 'troop'. I'm pretty sure the real El would have been aware of that group, and he may have even been aware that Vangy was replaced (but as long as the creature stays 'insane', he is fine with it). There may have been an on-going plot post-plague to replace various high-level wizards with dopplegangers. Hell, we could even bring back Blackstaff that way (although I 'brought him back' using the real Khelben Arunsun, who returned from Greyhawk).
EDIT:
I was just reading about the Greater Doppleganger HERE, and it occurred to me that perhaps after the thing ate Vangy's brain, Vangerdehast's contingencies and protective magics kicked-in and caused the problems. The real Vangy gets whisked away and heals slowly (in a safe-house in Tilverton), and because parts of his brain was destroyed he doesn't really remember the incident (which is good, because then we don't have to figure-out how the doppleganger got the drop on him). As for the doppleganger, that part that he ate also released the healing and contingency magics, and 'grafted' Vangy's memories into the Doppleganger's mind, to the point it no longer even remember what it was. It has become a ear-perfect copy. In fact, if Vangerdehast were to return, the false one would accuse the real one of being 'the fake' (and truly believe it).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 May 2013 15:03:39 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2013 : 15:01:47
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| Manshoon Clone posing as Vangey? |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2013 : 15:05:36
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I am so tired of Manshoon clones.
On the other hand, it could just be an insane Vangy clone (similar to what happened with Doctor Doom's clone).
Lots and lots of ways to spin this. I am starting to think that 5e FR could actually look a bit like 1e/2e/3e FR. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2013 : 15:13:20
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| Gondegal could be another Idea. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Hawkfeather
Seeker
Brazil
64 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2013 : 01:38:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Gondegal could be another Idea.
I can't quite well remember the exact Ravenlotf edition which described this, but Gondegal was in fact trapped in the demiplane. And I think Ed said once that he was back in the Realms. |
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Tilverton in Ravenloft?
