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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1882 Posts |
 Posted - 18 May 2013 : 22:50:44
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I've a question for you fine folks. In your homebrew campaigns, what are the origins of the gods? In mine I borrow heavily from Tolkien and it goes something like this...
The All-Father: There is a supreme God who is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. He is considered masculine but is in actuality all and no gender(s). He is also considered 'good' and 'lawful' but in the grand scheme of things alignment considerations cannot really be applied to Him. Bottom line, he transcends all things.
The First Children: Below him are a group of 12 beings (there were 14, seven 'male' and seven 'female'). Two are 'fallen from grace' and were a male/female couple. The others exist as supreme guardians of the multiverse. By multiverse, I mean all planes complete with alternate universes (such as the Mirror Universe from Star Trek) and alternate timelines. They have stewardship over all realities.
The Elder Gods: Below them is another set of divinities sometimes referred to as the Overgods or Highgods. Ao falls into this category, as did Selune and Shar at one time...they are too weak to be considered part of this tier now. Most of them perished in a great war fighting the fallen ones.
The Ar-Gozoth: In my campaign this is actually a subset of the Elder gods. They are born of the two fallen and are the source of aberrations. Basically they are Cthulu-like beings of great power.
The Gods: The deities worshiped by mortals.
There are other beings of power in my game as well. The High Dragons, for instance, were immortal dragons tasked with guarding the first dragons who were brought to the world in eons past. The 'Star Elves' are another group in my campaign that are truly immortal and have a significant, though intensely secret, role in the Realms.
So with that quick synopsis given, please share your divine origins.
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I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 01:04:58
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| I am super uncreative and use the deities my mother invented for her campaign before I was born. The deities are all aspects of alignments like there is a "Lawful Neutral godhead" which has deities that are aspects of it. |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 10:10:51
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| The pantheons in my homebrew campaigns are based on Deities and Demigods and Planescape On Hallowed Ground. No one knows ff there are any overpowers, that is a mystery even to the gods. I keep the number of pantheons low, FR gods are all masks of gods from mythology. Primordial powers and gods don't have separate origins like in the 4th edition, for example Greek powers originate from titans/protogenoi, or Egyptian/Mulhorandi from beastlords/primal spirits. Also fiendish lords can't be gods, they're something else. That's all in theory, and can easily change. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2013 : 03:27:19
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| Marc - are similar deities in real world mythologies (to planescape) the same beings, too? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2013 : 14:25:21
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I explained mine in bits & pieces over the years here, but its a tad different each time, because its ever-evolving. It goes something like this...
In the beginning there was naught but Chaos - a primal soup (the Ginnungagap). Modern scholars sometimes refer to this as the Primal Maelstrom - the precursor to the Elemental Maelstrom (which is far closer to the natural state of the universe). This was a near-limitless expanse of empty darkness, filled with vast pockets (larger then galaxies in some cases... yet miniscule by comparison to the greater whole) of primal energy. Strange energies formed within these pockets, along with solid matter, and stranger-still beings 'evolved' from this primordial madness. Today we know many of these creatures as 'aberrations'.
In this furnace of countless elements and untold energies a consiousness arose. Some may call this 'GOD', or 'the almighty',the 'Great Spirit', or even 'the Force' - its names are legion, as many and more as there are worlds. Some prefer not to think of it in terms of 'a person' at all, and those people are closest to the truth. If this consciousness even still exists, it is far beyond mere mortal comprehension, and we are so far beneath it that we barely even matter (but not quite).
And then it 'died'. Or rather, as it formed, the chaos that was part of it tore it asunder, and it reverted back into the primal soup that birthed it. An unestimable time later (for time itself did not exist yet) the consciousness formed yet again, and just before it could form a cohesive thought, it was once-again drawn back into the chaos. A third time the consciousness formed - and at that moment it was aware of its former failures to emerge - and thus is drove the chaos - the 'darkness' - from it, before it it could lose itself again. Some religions call this moment, "Let there be Light!"
And in so doing, it created the second great consciousness - the Cthon, or 'chaos' it purged, which was driven from it, as the void cleared around the first consciousness. That sentience rails against its own existence, and desires nothing less then the complete destruction of the first, and all later creations.¹
With each new thought the 'great being' had, new beings formed - parts of its consciousness sheared-off, like avatars of the universe itself. The first (those who count Cthon say the second) of these was the desire for something more - the Demiurge. It wanted to create others like it, and fill the void with wonderful things. Some of us know this being as 'Mother Nature', or 'The Earthmother', or even 'the divine Feminine'. It is the creative half of the universe, and 'gives birth' to new ideas, creatures, and worlds. Some say it the very basis for sentience - the desire to improve upon one's surroundings.
From these two came the other Great Ordials (Supernals), The first of which was Order itself (The Living Tribunal). With the concept of Order (Law) came Time (Kronos), Space (Ptah), Material ('the firmament', or Imaar/Ymir), Mana (Gaea or 'life-giving energy'), and others. They have a near-infinite number of names on many worlds - I use here only those we would recognize them as. On worlds of science, rather then faith and/or Magic, they have other names as well, such as 'the Strong Force', and 'Gravity'. No-mortal (or deity for that mater) truly knows how many there are. Some say eleven - others, ore or less. These are the great Ordials - sometimes called Supernals, and the Demiurge is counted among them, and also as the 'mother' of these beings.
And so, together - each of 'one mind' and yet separate - decided to take the basic building blocks of the universe - the Primal soup that surrounded them, and from it create the universe we know today. There is no way to tell how long all of this took. To us it may have been instantaneous... or taken untold aeons. Some laughingly even say it took 'seven days'. They created - sometimes together in what mortals would think of as 'couplings', and sometimes by themselves or even as a group - other Ordials. First among them was the Eternals - sometimes called Intermidiate Ordials, and then those beings created yet other Ordials, sometimes called Primordials (Prime Ordials, or even Sidereals, or 'Overgods'). Each had a job to perform, and the universe formed all around them. At this time there was only a single 'place' - the universe, and it had not yet been shattered (some say "Sundered") into countless worlds and planes. And they created many lesser servants, of varying levels of power -the Dæ.²
In time, the thought that there were three areas - 'above', where the Ordials sat and watched things unfold, and providing 'guidance'. The world' - the firmament, which was the body of Imaar himself. This is often referred to as 'Midgard', or 'middle world'. This was literally the 'sandbox of the gods'. And then there was 'below' - the place where all the 'failed attempts' and forgotten projects wound-up. One might even think of it as a 'dumping ground', but it was more like the 'buried remains of the past'. As new ideas formed, the old ones became part of this 'underworld.³
It was there - in that place - that Cthon sowed the first seeds of destruction. From his place outside of the universe he contacted the Demiurge - explained to it/her that the universe could not grow without decay - that the cast-off bits would eventually overwhelm all that was being done. And so - from the two of them - Shiva was born. The destroyer. The 'great equalizer'. It was then that he universe was set to spinning. Like some sort of 'great wheel', the cast-off bits becoming ground-down beneath, to provide new energy and raw material for the ever-expanding universe 'above'.
This was the 'top layer' of the Heavenly echelon... for then all was part of 'the heavens'. There was no mortal world - not yet, and there was no 'hells'. These would come later, when some of the Dæ, or 'Tezu' (servants of the heavens) rebelled.
End of interlude.........
¹Cthon - the insane sentience of Chaos itself - loathes its own existence as much as it hates everything else. It sits there - outside of normal Time & Space (which some sages refer to as 'The Far Realms') - plotting nothing less then the complete destruction of all-there-is. To this end, it has created a legion of 'Elder Evils' - agents to do its dirty work within the universe, which it may not enter directly.
²Today, most of the remaining Dæ are lumped-together under the umbrella term 'outsiders', for compared to mortals they are still beings of great power. If we think of the Planer hierarchy as a 'Celestial Bureaucracy', then the Dæ were like the employees - 'the grunts' - that kept the whole thing running, and they varied greatly in power. The highest ranks were called Archons (Arch-angels), and the lowest ranks were referred to as 'Tezu', roughly translating to 'servants'. The Dæ were given specialized tasks and areas on which to work - the Dæ-Va were assigned to the world above, and Dæ-Mon were made to work in that below-place. The lowest order of Dæ were the Tanar - sometimes called 'elementals' by today's scholars, but these originals were so much more - more like the great Djinn Lords. At a later time - after the first Godwar - prefixes (like 'Ba', meaning 'dark', or 'evil') and suffixes (like 'ri', which means corrupted, or 'changed by chaos') were added to these delineations.
³This region - the 'underworld' of the First World (plane) was later to become 'the Hells', which would include all the lower planes, eventually. Parts of it were turned into a prison for those the Ordials (and later gods) did not approve of. Some of this story can be found in the 3e Fiendish Codex 2: Tyrants of the Nine Hells, starting on pg.4, The Pact primeval. The 'demons' mentioned therein were renegade Dæ (Dæ-Mon) at that time. Asmodeus was 'first amongst the Archons', and his 'fall' is considered one of the universe's greatest tragedies. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 May 2013 15:01:42 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2013 : 16:47:50
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Marc - are similar deities in real world mythologies (to planescape) the same beings, too?
I tried that once before, but it didn't simplify anything, quite the opposite, it created more problems with the creation myths and history/relationships of the gods. Within each pantheon they are the same beings tough, for example Woden and Odin, Innana and Ishtar, or within the Celtic pantheon Tuatha de Danaan (sp?) are the most popular names, but they also have Welsh, Briton, and other aliases. One exception is the Roman and Greek gods, I think there enough information to split them into two pantheons. On the Etruscans there's little information, so their gods are old aliases of the Romans, except Orcus and Dispater who survived the loss of belief in them. I use the pantheon of Zakhara and Fate for all arabian-type characters, and the Mayan, Aztec, Incan, Maztican, Olman, and other similar gods are all one pantheon - mostly because I don't know enough about them.
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2013 : 15:12:46
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We don't know where the gods originated from. It depends on what race you ask. The tricky thing is, many of the older races have died out. There are some faiths that believe the old races are not dead--rather they are in-hiding within the world around us.
The Vaik believe that the cosmic anomalies known as Sarkaidrak pulled the world together from debris and matter scattered through space. Therefore, to the Vaik, the Sarkaidrak are the closest thing the world has to gods in the traditional sense. Vaik worship the gods by blending the art of organic and inorganic chemistry with fallout found in the lands where the Sarkudrak dwell. The Sarkudrak are the sauropods touched by the cosmic fallout of the Sarkaidrak. Vaik reverence of the Sarkudrak involves augmenting the soft Vaik body with the bones and hides of certain sauropods and avians in an attempt to ascend to Sarkudrak-hood.
The Evojur emerged in the world before the Vaik; therefore the Evojur see themselves as gods charged with keeping libraries of knowledge about the world. The Evojur's widespread travels to gather knowledge are barbaric; their metabolism allows them to assimilate the thoughts hidden within the unused brain cells of the other races. Often, the Evojur would have to nurture their abducted wisefolk. The shared ability of the brain to purge the unused brain cells prompted the Evojur to engage in a series of experiments that ended with the discovery of what is commonly called magic.
Thus, among mages, the seemingly barbaric Evojur are the gods of magic.
Mankind's ancestors, the Kirvaikin, are unaware of their creators, the Vaik. As they become more knowledgeable for their world, the Kirvaikin lands were visited by travelling Evojur. Legends began to emerge among the Kirvaikin about Evojur that would abduct the village wise folk and leave behind a reptile/amphibian progeny. According to Kirvaikin legend, these progeny could be returned to the ocean in exchange for the missing wise folk. That never happened; thus the Kirvaikin began looking for ways to journey into the oceans to find the changelings that they inadvertently set free.
So the pantheon is a bit ambiguous. According to the Law of Conservation of Mass, there must be something out there in my setting's universe. If any being had knowledge of that something, it would by the Sarkaidrak. |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1882 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2013 : 07:56:28
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| Thank you for the responses so far, especially you Markustay...this is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for in my PM to you. I'm trying to further flesh out the 'truth' of my homebrew mythology and fellow scribes are huge help. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2013 : 08:27:14
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My gods in homebrew settings tend to be a bit simplistic, but in the sense that they are outgrowths and elements of a core philosophy. For example, the abstract concept of justice develops a personification, which becomes the God of Justice. Belief influences them to a certain degree, but they function as literally a part of reality, and will mean different things to different elements of reality. One person's justice is not the same as another person's justice, for example, so the god represents different things depending on the majority will of the one calling.
It's also influenced by stuff like Neil Gaiman's Sandman, and his seven Endless. Destiny, Death, Dream, Destruction, Desire, Despair and Delirium. They are all not just powerful gods with a connection to part of reality, they literally are part of reality. Death isn't a goddess of death, she is death. That's how my gods are. Even speaking with them is only touching on the very small aspect of them that the mind can comprehend. So that is in large part how my gods also function.
There are lesser gods that are not as fully a part of reality as the true gods, but even they tend to be "detached" in a certain fashion, because they aren't mortal. Their minds are not mortal, and they cannot truly be comprehended by a mortal, no matter how powerful that mortal might be.
Additionally, gods are real. As in, not real flesh and blood and such, but real. In Pratchett's Discworld, Binky can do what it can do partly because it is so much more real than everything around it. My gods function in the same way, that they are more real, because they are so much a part of reality. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2013 : 11:25:33
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| I also have abstract concepts personified, but they're different, illusory, they become incarnates (from Planescape MC1). |
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Origin of the Gods in Personal Campaigns
