| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 19 May 2013 : 13:06:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Szass Tam had the temerity to summon and bind a greater god (Bane) who didn’t like being summoned and bound (especially moments after the Spellplague struck). He himself admitted that Bane could have escaped from the “magical webs” and destroyed him, but Bane would have had to spend some time and expending some power to break free.
Which to me is so wrong on so many levels. Tam shouldn't have been able to summon Bane in the first place and his Bane should have shattered his puny ward while leaving without even noticing that he just shattered a binding that was supposed to hold him.
If one of the most powerfull greater deities can be treated that way and would need to expend so much to escape, what does this say about a demi or lesser deity that find herself in the same situation?
It depends on how one sees that scene. There could be some unexplained factors. I seriously doubt the author intended to make light of the gods.
Fastrin’s notes are now in the hands of Szass Tam. Who knows what kind of magical lore it has other than the creation of the Dread Rings? It may have some detailed (albeit theoretical) ways of binding gods. Also, the Dread Rings are essentially fountains of great, raw magic. Szass Tam might have harnessed some of it to strengthen his conjuration and binding.
quote:
There a being that barely qualifies as a godling by having gained a fraction of a fraction of divinity is a being of awe that puts fear into archwizards.
If Tam can treat greater deities this way and Telemont not even minor godlings, than Tam should be able to just teleport over and take controll of Netheril, killing Telemont who should be to weak to resist him in any way (and all of the other princes who are even weaker too if they don't immediately bow down to him).
You’re not the only who thinks that a powerboost from a godling should not have made Rivalen a “threat” to his father. Telamont’s the only being known to have deflected the supposedly unstoppable silverfire. That amounts to something. And he’s been experimenting, obsessing with shadow magic for millennia. And remember that he allowed Rivalen to steal a portion of divinity from Volumvax. Telamont does not strike as the careless type, so he must have had some contingencies in place to deal with the results later.
I’m open to possibilities that I hope would be explained in Godborn. Divinity and affinity to shadow magic, when combined, must have granted one the ability to harness more raw magic from the Shadow Weave. Also, Rivalen is the Nightseer, which means he may be enjoying some benefits no ordinary followers of Shar do. Such benefits may include a powerboost from Shar herself. Rivalen starting chaos in the empire that would ultimately lead to destruction and loss is in Shar’s interest. |
Every beginning has an end. |
 |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 13:38:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, Vellie is a god. Szassy is just a lich. Pretty clear statement on power levels, right there.
Hmmmm... I recall The Sojourner was "just a lich". IIRC, the guy juggled moons just for kicks. I know some gods that wish they could do that. He kidnapped angels and fiends and had NO FEAR of any deity coming after him.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Easy -- you can't claim to be an active deity, and there are only a limited number of fallen deities whose names and portfolios are up for grabs.
Actually, thats precisely what Cyric did at the very beginning of Prince of Lies. He impersonated one of the 'meathead' gods (I forget which one).
From what I understand, this came back to bite him in Crucible, but I haven't read that story yet. Regardless, he still did it, and got away with it for quite awhile (and had he not lost control of the Dead, he may have never been caught).
Therefor, it is possible - its just most gods know they can get caught, and aren't that stupid. There appears to be no active 'cosmic rule' stopping them, however.
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 19 May 2013 13:42:58 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 14:12:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, Vellie is a god. Szassy is just a lich. Pretty clear statement on power levels, right there.
Hmmmm... I recall The Sojourner was "just a lich". IIRC, the guy juggled moons just for kicks. I know some gods that wish they could do that. He kidnapped angels and fiends and had NO FEAR of any deity coming after him.
He didn't "juggle moons" -- he grabbed one of the Tears, with what was basically a supercharged telekinesis spell.
The fact that this was ignored by all deities is one of the flaws of that book.
And regular mortals do things against divine servitors. It's like saying Manshoon doesn't fear Mystra, because he has tried to kill Elminster. Not worrying about a divine response does not indicate power.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Easy -- you can't claim to be an active deity, and there are only a limited number of fallen deities whose names and portfolios are up for grabs.
Actually, thats precisely what Cyric did at the very beginning of Prince of Lies. He impersonated one of the 'meathead' gods (I forget which one).
From what I understand, this came back to bite him in Crucible, but I haven't read that story yet. Regardless, he still did it, and got away with it for quite awhile (and had he not lost control of the Dead, he may have never been caught).
I'm pretty sure Cyric never said that he was another deity, he created the impression. There's a difference between taking someone's name and letting foolish mortals make assumptions.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 May 2013 14:14:19 |
|
|
|
Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 14:37:54
|
| I think cyric impersonated torm. Leading gwyndolyn (spelling) to his death. Was a pretty funny scene. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 15:55:28
|
Isn't Torm gone now in 4e?
Maybe Torm will really be Cyric in 5e. 
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 16:11:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I think cyric impersonated torm. Leading gwyndolyn (spelling) to his death. Was a pretty funny scene.
As I recall, though, Cyric took Torm's appearance -- he never actually said "I am Torm." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 17:06:08
|
FINE THEN!
Valsheroon vs Larloch :P |
|
|
|
Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 17:29:50
|
| Larloch wins. Reason, he is still around while Velsharoon is a corpse( a real one, not a lich one). |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
|
|
|
Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 17:29:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
You’re not the only who thinks that a powerboost from a godling should not have made Rivalen a “threat” to his father.
Actually you missunderstood me.
I think that's exactly how it should be. Paul has hit on the right treatment of deities.
Telamont might be a powerful archmage, maybe one of the most powerful archmages, but his son is now a godling. Sorry old man, you're son just surpassed you in power.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Telamont’s the only being known to have deflected the supposedly unstoppable silverfire. That amounts to something.
I'll grant him that he might hurt the godling before he goes down, but that's it. The outcome shouldn't be in questions.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
And remember that he allowed Rivalen to steal a portion of divinity from Volumvax.
Maybe I am missremembering but he only send his son to help deal with Volumvax. That Rivalen might steal some of the divinity for himself didn't even occure to Rivalen until the very moment the transfer to Mask's chosen was happening and he suddenly realized he was similiar enough to just grap a portion as well.
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
FINE THEN!
Valsheroon vs Larloch :P
By right's it should be Velsharoon (although walking away with a lot of bruises).
But given the completly different ways authors are currently handling deities that depends if it's written by Richard or Paul ;) |
|
|
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 17:40:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
I'll grant him that he might hurt the godling before he goes down, but that's it. The outcome shouldn't be in questions.
I would say, if you are the most powerful arch whatever, of all time, you should know a trick or two to defend yourself from a god in some matter, especially if you been around long enough to have some sort of artifact.
That is the fun thing about faerun, the gods can huff and puff all they want, but a mortal can pull some sort of plot device out of their ass, and BOOM , we have a god screwed over some how, by a clever mortal. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 18:58:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
And remember that he allowed Rivalen to steal a portion of divinity from Volumvax.
Maybe I am missremembering but he only send his son to help deal with Volumvax. That Rivalen might steal some of the divinity for himself didn't even occure to Rivalen until the very moment the transfer to Mask's chosen was happening and he suddenly realized he was similiar enough to just grap a portion as well.
Actually, you are misremembering. See the excerpts below.
quote:
The Most High glided forward until he was nearly within reach of the archfiend. Dark power shrouded them both . . .
“Kesson Rel’s death will free the Shadowlord’s stolen divinity. I wish to divert it before it returns to the god or enters another of his Chosen.”
. . .
Brennus listened with interest as Mephistopheles told them the series of spells and the focus necessary to do what they intended. They would have little time once Kesson Rel was dead.
And of course, this: [boldface mine]
quote:
”Complicated? Complicated? My mother is dead. Your wife.”
Anger fired Telamont’s eyes and Brennus knew he had gone too far. Telemont grabbed Brennus, shook him with a strength that should not have been contained in his thin body.
“I know the price I pay for this, boy! Do not think to lecture me on grief! You are a child in such matters!”
Brennus stared into his father’s face, his mouth open but wordless.
Telemont released him, regained control. “Forgive me, Brennus.”
Brennus knew he would not. He tried to understand, but could not. “Rivalen should be made to pay.”
The shadows around Telemont churned. “He will.”
“How? You would allow him to become a god. He will be beyond our ability to punish if he succeeds.”
“The power he seeks, once gained, is punishment enough.”
“I do not understand.”
“You would not. But I have looked into the void, Brennus. I stand on its edge each day but do not enter. Rivalen will embrace it and live with it the rest of his existence.”
“It is not enough. He murdered my mother.”
“What is enough is not for you to say. You will obey me in this as in all things. Assist Rivalen as you have been. He loves you, Brennus, in his way, considers you as much friend as brother. But he cannot know that I know. Not ever. And if you betray me in this, I will kill you.”
I seriously doubt Telamont allowed Rivalen to steal a portion of Kesson Rel’s divinity just to “punish” him. Rivalen is loyal to Shar only. Allowing him to gain some extra power threatens Telamont’s position. So the Most High must have had some contingencies in place, or thinks that his son’s powerboost amounts to nothing compared to his own power level. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 19:04:38
|
| Maybe Shar in the end will take the essence from Rivalen and add it to her own, after all she is the Goddess of Loss. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 22:23:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Isn't Torm gone now in 4e?
Maybe Torm will really be Cyric in 5e.
Tyr and Helm are gone. Torm is now the "Threefold God". |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 22:39:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I think cyric impersonated torm. Leading gwyndolyn (spelling) to his death. Was a pretty funny scene.
As I recall, though, Cyric took Torm's appearance -- he never actually said "I am Torm."
Semantics. Cyric took on the appearance of Torm and acted as if he were him. If you put on a cops uniform and started acting as one are you telling me you are not impersonating a cop? |
|
|
|
froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 01:03:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
Mystra has already returned. She came back officially in Elminter Enraged.
Do what!?
Who? What? When? How?
I am out of the loop because when 4th came out I hit the road.
John |
Long live Alias and Dragonbait! Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb the Realms need you more then ever!
On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true. - Elminster of Shadowdale
The Old Grey Box gets better with age! |
|
|
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 01:55:39
|
| Well then, keep walking wouldn't want to break your dedication by telling you what happened ;-) |
|
|
|
Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 02:43:39
|
| Hmm, I need to get back in the loop, too. I was pretty surprised a while back to find out there was actually a novel that described the changeover from Tyr to Torm. I thought that hadn't been expanded on at all, but nope, apparently it was. I really need to review the novels released during 4E some day and make a note of novels which might be necessary reading in case I do end up getting caught up with the 5E Realms. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 04:20:24
|
| I believe that series in which the switch happens was Empyrean Odessey by Thomas M Reid. It was also a follow-up trilogy to War of the Spider Queen. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 05:50:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I think cyric impersonated torm. Leading gwyndolyn (spelling) to his death. Was a pretty funny scene.
As I recall, though, Cyric took Torm's appearance -- he never actually said "I am Torm."
Semantics. Cyric took on the appearance of Torm and acted as if he were him. If you put on a cops uniform and started acting as one are you telling me you are not impersonating a cop?
It's not the same thing. Cyric wasn't stealing someone's identity, only their appearance -- and it was for a one-on-one encounter. He didn't say he was Torm -- he didn't claim to be another deity. He simply let a mortal make that assumption.
That is not at all the same thing as saying "Yeah, so you're worshipping Gahri the deity? Guess what, I am Gahri, so you're worshipping me!"
There are no laws against me dressing as Tom Cruise. There are no laws against me dressing as him and letting people think I'm Tom Cruise. But when I try to use his credit card or access his bank account, that's when I've broken the law. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 06:25:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There are no laws against me dressing as Tom Cruise. There are no laws against me dressing as him and letting people think I'm Tom Cruise. But when I try to use his credit card or access his bank account, that's when I've broken the law.
That analogy falls apart when it is applied to the Realms. There are no laws that I'm aware of that prevents a deity from impersonating another deity. This is especially true for deities that have more deception oriented portfolios like Shar, Mask, and Cyric. |
|
|
|
charger_ss24
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 07:38:56
|
Bring Deneir back. Free Cadderly!  |
|
|
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 07:42:30
|
| yah know... I could respect bringing back deneir and cadderly, that was one of the very few "chosen" that did not go all elimister on the realms and get into everyones business, slapping folks hands and telling them to behave, an I think he was respected for it, as even evil folks would send him tombs of info or magic for record keeping. |
Edited by - silverwolfer on 20 May 2013 07:43:08 |
|
|
|
Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 08:49:03
|
I liked the concept of Chosen. It made for a great option for PC's to aspire to. The only problem I had with its execution was that so many of the Chosen NPC's in the setting were Chosen of Mystra. I've believed for a while that designers should follow a general rule when creating NPC's for the Realms: For every heroic NPC you create, create two villainous NPC's of equal or greater level. There is nothing wrong with having Elminster, the Seven Sisters, Drizzt, Khelben, or whoever else running around.
The problem, I think, is one of perception where it feels like they're capable of handling all the problems in the Realms. It's not a perception I agree with, but I can see where it comes from, given the power disparity between the NPC's. I've gone over the lists of good and evil NPC's several times over several editions and it's always the same. The good NPC's not only outnumber the evil NPC's, but they're vastly more powerful, too. For every Level 29 Elminster or Level 30 Simbul you have a Level 19 Manshoon and a Level 15 Fzoul Chembryl.
It doesn't speak much to the abilities of group like the Zhentarim to threaten the good guys when their most powerful members can't hold a candle to the most powerful heroes in the Realms. Making Fzoul and Manshoon Level 29 was one of the few things that I think the 4E Realms got right (Although I really dislike that Fzoul was made a god. I said it before and I'll say it again. I really wish he'd become mortal again. Or at the very least become a Chosen of Bane which, while immortal, still isn't a god).
So personally I'd like to see the concept of Chosen return. The only thing I'd change is that, alongside our statted up Chosen of Mystra (Elminster, Storm Silverhand, the Simbul), we also have a few statted up Chosen for other good gods, and numerous statted up evil NPC's for evil gods. A Chosen of Cyric, Chosen of Talos, Chosen of Bane, Chosen of Malar, Chosen of Lolth, etc. Another advantage of that is that it'd give them carte blanche to do some really weird stuff with some of these NPC's and make some really unusual and unique villains. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
|
|
|
Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 09:44:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
I've believed for a while that designers should follow a general rule when creating NPC's for the Realms: For every heroic NPC you create, create two villainous NPC's of equal or greater level. There is nothing wrong with having Elminster, the Seven Sisters, Drizzt, Khelben, or whoever else running around.
The problem, I think, is one of perception where it feels like they're capable of handling all the problems in the Realms. It's not a perception I agree with, but I can see where it comes from, given the power disparity between the NPC's. I've gone over the lists of good and evil NPC's several times over several editions and it's always the same. The good NPC's not only outnumber the evil NPC's, but they're vastly more powerful, too. For every Level 29 Elminster or Level 30 Simbul you have a Level 19 Manshoon and a Level 15 Fzoul Chembryl.
It doesn't speak much to the abilities of group like the Zhentarim to threaten the good guys when their most powerful members can't hold a candle to the most powerful heroes in the Realms. Making Fzoul and Manshoon Level 29 was one of the few things that I think the 4E Realms got right (Although I really dislike that Fzoul was made a god. I said it before and I'll say it again. I really wish he'd become mortal again. Or at the very least become a Chosen of Bane which, while immortal, still isn't a god).
I agree with all of this.
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
I liked the concept of Chosen. It made for a great option for PC's to aspire to. The only problem I had with its execution was that so many of the Chosen NPC's in the setting were Chosen of Mystra.
...
So personally I'd like to see the concept of Chosen return. The only thing I'd change is that, alongside our statted up Chosen of Mystra (Elminster, Storm Silverhand, the Simbul), we also have a few statted up Chosen for other good gods, and numerous statted up evil NPC's for evil gods. A Chosen of Cyric, Chosen of Talos, Chosen of Bane, Chosen of Malar, Chosen of Lolth, etc. Another advantage of that is that it'd give them carte blanche to do some really weird stuff with some of these NPC's and make some really unusual and unique villains.
I disagree with this.
Mystra's Chosen were supposed to be special. They were supposed to be the fail safe for the Weave should something happen to Mystra. They were her backup plan - that's why they held part of her divine power.
Now, I'm not against Chosen per-say. My issue with them centers more around the fact that an overwhelming number of them tend to be arcane magic users. It takes away from the clergy of a deities cult. IN THE VAST MAJORITY OF CASES I think if a deity creates a Chosen, it's going to be of one of their high ranking clerics / priests. Why? Because they've already proven their worth and loyalty to the cause. They've served faithfully for many years. Now, you might encounter the occasional non-religious Chosen, but really at the end of the day a deity is going to want their Chosen to further their goals and aims. This is ALREADY the job of the deities clergy. It only makes sense that if you're going to reward someone, who you in turn expect to further your goals and aims, it would be the very people who've dedicated their lives to doing exactly that.
In my Realms, post Spellplague all divine casters lost access to their spells. This was known as "The Great Silence". The deities went dark for awhile. Part of this was imposed by Ao, but the reason so many lost access to their spells was because they all granted spells through the Weave. The Weave was a wonderful conduit through which deities could have a lot of divine spell casters without expending any real divine energy. Then the Spellplague happens and... well... that's no longer an option. Now, deities have to grant powers more directly, which in effect makes divine spellcasters very similar to chosen in my Realms.
Most of the priests in my Realms can't cast divine magic. Many of them know divine rituals, but these require large groups of participants, time, and all that jazz. They don't go around swinging magic willy-nilly. So, when someone is encountered who can actually heal their wounds with a touch - it's a miracle, literally.
It's one thing to have a priest of Ilmater comfort you as he creates a splint for your broken arm. It's another thing entirely for a priest of Ilmater to say a prayer with you, and then with the touch of his hand fuse the bones in your arm back together by channeling the power of Ilmater himself. It's one thing to call yourself a Paladin of Torm, and ride off - with sword in hand - to face the enemies of your church. It's another thing entirely to call yourself a Paladin of Torm, and ride off, only to smite the enemies of the Church by channeling the power of Torm himself.
That's basically how I've dealt with the "chosen" in my Realms. |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 11:51:01
|
Mystra's Chosen being "special" and "unique" was all fine and good when the Realms was the private home setting of Mr. Ed Greenwood.
Once he sold the rights to it and it became a published D&D setting/shared universe for various authors to play in, not so much. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 12:48:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I think cyric impersonated torm. Leading gwyndolyn (spelling) to his death. Was a pretty funny scene.
As I recall, though, Cyric took Torm's appearance -- he never actually said "I am Torm."
Semantics. Cyric took on the appearance of Torm and acted as if he were him. If you put on a cops uniform and started acting as one are you telling me you are not impersonating a cop?
It's not the same thing. Cyric wasn't stealing someone's identity, only their appearance -- and it was for a one-on-one encounter. He didn't say he was Torm -- he didn't claim to be another deity. He simply let a mortal make that assumption.
That is not at all the same thing as saying "Yeah, so you're worshipping Gahri the deity? Guess what, I am Gahri, so you're worshipping me!"
There are no laws against me dressing as Tom Cruise. There are no laws against me dressing as him and letting people think I'm Tom Cruise. But when I try to use his credit card or access his bank account, that's when I've broken the law.
If that is the way in which you view things, fine.
We choose to think differently. We are so sorry if we dare to disagree with you. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 13:49:10
|
Hey, I'm going with what is obviously the case in the Realms. Cyric was not punished for appearing to be another deity, and he did not claim to be that deity.
No deity who has taken the identity of a dead deity has been punished for it, either.
The conclusions here are pretty clear. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 14:14:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Hey, I'm going with what is obviously the case in the Realms. Cyric was not punished for appearing to be another deity, and he did not claim to be that deity.
No deity who has taken the identity of a dead deity has been punished for it, either.
The conclusions here are pretty clear.
True and true. What I don't understand is how you go from a statement like that to this...
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Easy -- you can't claim to be an active deity, and there are only a limited number of fallen deities whose names and portfolios are up for grabs.
So, where does it say a deity "can't claim to be an active deity"? The fact that you want to argue that Cyric didn't claim to be Torm, but instead only wanted to give off a mistaken impression is irrelevant. I'm not aware of anything in the lore that says a deity can't claim to be an active deity. |
|
|
|
Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 14:48:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I think cyric impersonated torm. Leading gwyndolyn (spelling) to his death. Was a pretty funny scene.
As I recall, though, Cyric took Torm's appearance -- he never actually said "I am Torm."
Semantics. Cyric took on the appearance of Torm and acted as if he were him. If you put on a cops uniform and started acting as one are you telling me you are not impersonating a cop? |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2013 : 15:02:21
|
It varies from state to state, but here (in NY) the legal definition of impersonation is...
quote:
criminal impersonation is committed when an individual "impersonates another and does an act in such assumed character with intent to obtain a benefit or to injure or defraud another"(N.Y. Penal Law § 190.25 [McK-inney 1996]).
Nowhere in the legal definition does it say you have to have actually identified yourself thusly. Just appearing and acting as the person makes you guilty of the crime.
There is an even broader definition when this is applied to any person making themselves out to be a public official or similar (like pretending you are a delivery guy, or work for the gas company). Just putting on the uniform and knocking on someones door makes you guilty - no words even need be exchanged.
Considering that gods qualify as the ultimate 'public official', I think just looking like another deity makes you guilty. As I said before, its open to interpretation. IMO, if Cyric tried to say he was just "roleplaying with his wife, and the other guy happened to catch a glimspe of him", then he could establish 'reasonable doubt' and perhaps get away with it (in a real court of law). Since Cyric doesn't have a wife (or GF), and his other name is 'the Prince of Lies', I would think any judge would laugh at him if he tried this defense.
UNLESS Cyric tries to say he was some form of entertainer. There is some leeway there. Since most of us consider him a clown, that might actually work.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
taking bets on 5e gods
