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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
 Posted - 18 May 2013 : 02:11:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The faithful of Bane may not have needed such a vision, but there would have been no harm in reminding them of their god's power. And showing the vision to Cyricists that were former Banites could have served as a warning and pulled them back to the fold. Instead, the only people that saw it were the ones that Xvim would need to convert to Bane if he was assuming his father's identity.
And there is still the fact that Bane 2.0 does not use the same colors or symbol of Bane 1.0, and in fact uses the same colors as Xvim. Servitor critters that Bane 1.0 didn't use, but that Xvim did use, are now used by Bane 2.0.
While I'll most readily admit that my preferred conclusion is not definite, it best fits all the facts... And the fact that Bane 2.0 has changed many things about how he presents himself is undeniable, with the most likely conclusion being that he is not the same deity he once was. Either he's some mix of Bane and Xvim, or he's Xvim.
While I agree with and support your conclusions Wooly, I don't think the change in the holy symbol is the strongest argument. Bane isn't the only deity to change his holy symbol after the Time of Troubles. Ilmater is another example of a deity who changed their symbol. According to Faith's and Pantheons:
"Ilmater#146;'s symbol in the early days was the blood-stained rack, but since the Godswar the use of a pair of white hands bound with a blood-red cord has come into almost exclusive use. This newer symbol has increased Ilmater#146;'s popularity in the world at large."
Granted, this doesn't disprove anything, but merely shows that other deities made changes as well post-ToT.
It's not just the symbol. It's also him adopting his son's chosen colors and his servitor critters. It's the fact that Xvim's death was only witnessed by those who most needed to be converted for Bane's return. It's the fact that we have many examples of gods masquerading as other gods to directly or indirectly get more power and worshipers -- and Xvim has already done that, too.
It costs Xvim nothing and gains him much to impersonate Daddy, and while it's not the only possible interpretation of all those facts, it's one of the most likely.
I find it far more likely that either Xvim is Bane, or that Bane 2.0 is some mix of Bane and Xvim, as opposed to Bane 1.0 returning, changing his appearance, and not announcing his return more widely.
Yeah, I know. I actually agree with and prefer Bane 2.0 to really be Xvim masquerading as his Daddy. I was simply pointing out that some other deities changed their holy symbols (as well as other aspects of their faiths) post-ToT.
I guess my point is that, I prefer the interpretation of the lore you're providing, and I believe it is a valid interpretation of what we know. However, at the same time since other deities also made changes to their faiths post-ToT, it's not 100% iron clad.
Basically, there are strong arguments to make that the original Bane has returned, that it's a combination between Bane and Xvim, or that it's Xvim impersonating his father. I think all three of these are legitimate interpretations of the lore.
I personally would prefer that we never know the truth, and that hints constantly be given supporting all arguments. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2013 : 04:36:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
On Bhaal - as much as I liked him, I feel he is the one god that shouldn't come back. After all, as a former god of murder, I think he would be against murdered beings coming back from the dead. Its anathema to him, IMO.
On Mystra - As I said above, I'd prefer something more like the original; an aloof goddess who is just the 'caretaker of the Weave' (and a lot more like GH's Wee Jas). Then we can have individual, 'lesser' deities for certain aspects of magic. Give Lurue a more prominent role (there is a difference between 'The Weave', and magic itself).
On Myrkul - I MUCH prefer him over Kelemvor, but I use both, and in this case, my vote is 'the more the merrier'.
On Bane - he is redundant with Asmodeus. I would prefer that it turns out Bane is just an alias for Asmodeus... but thats never going to happen. I just don't see a need for both. However, I would prefer 'Bane' remain his FR-specific name - I hate when RW mythic beings are used in FR lore (and perhaps leave that one of those undisclosed 'deeper secrets').
On Lathander/Aumanator - I personally use (for my hombrewed version) FOUR 'sun' deities - I also include Re ("the setting sun"), and divide the cycle each has prominence in to 250 year intervals (so a thousand years is one full cycle). You have dawn, midday, evening, and night. The first three are one being with three different aspects/personalities, but 'the dusk Lord' is an entirely different entity. The first Dusk Lord (pre-Sundering) was Erebus, but many others have taken up the portfolio since then. Personally. I think Shar should have it in 5e, but I am sure people would get their nerd-rage on if that happened.
So I basically gave my FR a milenia-long cylce of rebirth and renewal, which applies to Faer�n itself (if not the world). The sun god is fated to 'live' through his three cycles, and then the Dusk Lord holds the portfolio until a new Dawnlord has risen. I realize this is a stretch from canon, which is why I wouldn't wish it upon the canon Realms.
As for the rest - I think deities like Mask, Leira, Vhaeruan, etc... should remain 'mysterious'. Whether they are 'alive' or not doesn't really matter; its their human cultists that interest me. Why do we need to know where the power is really coming from? Leaving it open-ended gives DMs so much more room to play with.
As for the non-human deities - I am all for merging pantheons, but we need to keep a handful of them race-specific. For instance, I decided years ago that Deep Sashales IS Poseidon/Neptune, and the Finnish deity Ahto. There is absolutely no reason why he can't be. The Elves know him as Deep Sashelas - an ancient Fey power - and so most folks on Toril know him by that name as well. Except for some problems with past lore (not really - easy enough to fudge), I also think its just fine for Sune to be Hanali Celanil (and Aphrodite/Venus, etc). She's another one that could easily be an ancient Fey power (Freya, maybe?) I think a little cross-cultural religious pollination is not only good for the setting, but it makes perfect sense, given how long the various major races have been interacting. We just need to keep the names setting-specific (or at least D&D-specific), because some of them are just too jarring (like if we actually did use 'Aphrodite').
So all of that should be going on... but they shouldn't tell us all of it. I realize that fans "want to know", but the more they tell us, the more snags they inadvertently create, and the more holes could get torn in the fabric of the setting. It also ties our hands for future stories (because things get 'set in stone'). And I don't just mean by the authors/designers... WE tell far more stories in the Realms then any of them do, each and every day (in our games).
And for god sakes... go back to the 'uncertain third person' presentation style. IT WORKS - it allows us to change whatever the heck we want, and covers all the bases I mentioned above (in other words, just because some group is worshiping a god, doesn't mean its real). Deities 'active in the Realms' does not = deities that actually exist. Once we realize that, anything is possible.
I'm going to have to disagree here. I realize DMs want the freedom of being able to use what you've mentioned, but I am one of those who "wants to know". I want to know which god is back. And if it turns a particular deity isn't back, his followers aren't going to be happy when they go to the Fugue Plane. Another deity who is "similar" in portfolio or whatever could "pick them up", and it's true there are those who still follow dead deities, but I was NOT happy over the deaths of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (to use them as examples). That was a huge blow, and because of what they represent, I think we (and their followers) deserve to know whether they are back or not.
And haven't DMs/players been playing with the setting anyway, no matter the edition? That's what homebrew is, isn't it? I see no reason why knowing which gods are back would effect that. Heck, I know people who have E and V still alive and well in their campaigns. You can still choose to include which deities you want in your game.
I know the novels are based on the game, and the game has priority, but that doesn't mean the novels shouldn't have a stake in this, IMO. I don't see how knowing for certain which deities are back would create snags. If I were living in the Realms, and I am praying to my patron deity, I would like to know it is actually that deity that is answering my prayers. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2013 : 07:21:29
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I don't think the losing E, and V; was that big of a blow, it was a story that needed to happen and wrap up, sadly though it did not continue on. It just stopped, no chess game with Corellen , no seeing what happened to this suddenly changed group of elves. Nothing, I know of not one book that takes this suddenly new group of elves into account.
I could handle it as just one more cog in the wheel of a story progression, instead we got a great big hole in my gaping heart and midnight dreams of naked dark elf goddess's dancing in the moonlight.
Edit 2
To my Lath vs Ama Which sun gods are what
I am quoting here from the 4e campaign book
quote:
Amaunator
The Keeper of the Yellow Sun
Lawful Good Greater God
Amaunator is the reincarnated
deity of the sun,
the timekeeper of the
gods. Though some
say he died, he actually
transformed into
Lathander, and was
worshiped under that
name for centuries
before finally reclaiming both
his name and his mission. He
causes the sun to burn and sets its course across the
sky, giving rise to the celestial clock by which all time
is measured.
Also to continue on , in the Lost Empire of Faerun, it is talked about **through a prc** that a class called sunmaster, was the reflection of this fact, with a notably large split of lathandar clerics and palidens thinking it was Amaunator. |
Edited by - silverwolfer on 18 May 2013 07:38:05 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2013 : 10:51:35
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
I don't think the losing E, and V; was that big of a blow, it was a story that needed to happen and wrap up, sadly though it did not continue on. It just stopped, no chess game with Corellen , no seeing what happened to this suddenly changed group of elves. Nothing, I know of not one book that takes this suddenly new group of elves into account.
I could handle it as just one more cog in the wheel of a story progression, instead we got a great big hole in my gaping heart and midnight dreams of naked dark elf goddess's dancing in the moonlight.
IMO, E and V are a thousand times better than Corellon when it comes to this matter. They represent the drow battling for their freedom, to forge their own path and place in Toril (instead of being forced in the lives Lolth wants for them), and are an inspiring force that encourages the Dark Elves to do so. Being the symbol of what I said above, they add way more depth to the setting than having the dude who cursed a whole race for the lulz (the generic god of elves, not even specific to the FR, unlike E and V) playing chess with some obnoxious and self focused spider thing.
Also, I don't see why this stuff had to happen, as you said. The whole concept of ''redemption'' (the transformation at the end) is something I hate. Imagine if some day someone came to you and said 'hey, your current form is crap, it has been cursed 142466253 years ago for no apparent reason and now I'm going to revert it to its purple skinned original status to remove your corruption', wouldn't it feel pointless and kind of stupid? I don't recall Eilistraeen being unhappy with their drow status: many of them are proud of it.
Fighting to be able to live freely and ''to forge one's own path, that welcomes beings of all races who revel in life and the free form expression of all that entails'' is what E is about (no, not dancing under the moon, seriously sometimes I wish she never got that trait because people tend to think she's all about it), deleting the drow-ness from her followers is just hypocritical.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2013 : 11:01:08
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Bane is dead. Xvim is dead.
Cyric murdered Xvim and through his portfolios of deceptions, lies, intrigue and illusions fooled everyone into believing that Bane is back.
But it's all Cyric masquerading. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2013 : 11:54:47
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Seems like Cyrics madness swapped over to Mirtek.
Fear not, the banite inquisitors will help you along. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2013 : 14:56:43
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They are all dead, even Shar.
Leira's greatest victory is the one no-one was ever aware of.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2013 : 15:57:29
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I'd have Myrkl released from the crown of horns, but it left its mark on him, made him into the God of Cursed Artifacts. Alternately you could make him the God of the Wall of the Faithless, serving Kelemvour. Or both.
I prefer Velshroon as God of Undeath. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12022 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2013 : 16:15:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
On Bhaal - as much as I liked him, I feel he is the one god that shouldn't come back. After all, as a former god of murder, I think he would be against murdered beings coming back from the dead. Its anathema to him, IMO.
On Mystra - As I said above, I'd prefer something more like the original; an aloof goddess who is just the 'caretaker of the Weave' (and a lot more like GH's Wee Jas). Then we can have individual, 'lesser' deities for certain aspects of magic. Give Lurue a more prominent role (there is a difference between 'The Weave', and magic itself).
On Myrkul - I MUCH prefer him over Kelemvor, but I use both, and in this case, my vote is 'the more the merrier'.
On Bane - he is redundant with Asmodeus. I would prefer that it turns out Bane is just an alias for Asmodeus... but thats never going to happen. I just don't see a need for both. However, I would prefer 'Bane' remain his FR-specific name - I hate when RW mythic beings are used in FR lore (and perhaps leave that one of those undisclosed 'deeper secrets').
On Lathander/Aumanator - I personally use (for my hombrewed version) FOUR 'sun' deities - I also include Re ("the setting sun"), and divide the cycle each has prominence in to 250 year intervals (so a thousand years is one full cycle). You have dawn, midday, evening, and night. The first three are one being with three different aspects/personalities, but 'the dusk Lord' is an entirely different entity. The first Dusk Lord (pre-Sundering) was Erebus, but many others have taken up the portfolio since then. Personally. I think Shar should have it in 5e, but I am sure people would get their nerd-rage on if that happened.
So I basically gave my FR a milenia-long cylce of rebirth and renewal, which applies to Faerûn itself (if not the world). The sun god is fated to 'live' through his three cycles, and then the Dusk Lord holds the portfolio until a new Dawnlord has risen. I realize this is a stretch from canon, which is why I wouldn't wish it upon the canon Realms.
As for the rest - I think deities like Mask, Leira, Vhaeruan, etc... should remain 'mysterious'. Whether they are 'alive' or not doesn't really matter; its their human cultists that interest me. Why do we need to know where the power is really coming from? Leaving it open-ended gives DMs so much more room to play with.
As for the non-human deities - I am all for merging pantheons, but we need to keep a handful of them race-specific. For instance, I decided years ago that Deep Sashales IS Poseidon/Neptune, and the Finnish deity Ahto. There is absolutely no reason why he can't be. The Elves know him as Deep Sashelas - an ancient Fey power - and so most folks on Toril know him by that name as well. Except for some problems with past lore (not really - easy enough to fudge), I also think its just fine for Sune to be Hanali Celanil (and Aphrodite/Venus, etc). She's another one that could easily be an ancient Fey power (Freya, maybe?) I think a little cross-cultural religious pollination is not only good for the setting, but it makes perfect sense, given how long the various major races have been interacting. We just need to keep the names setting-specific (or at least D&D-specific), because some of them are just too jarring (like if we actually did use 'Aphrodite').
So all of that should be going on... but they shouldn't tell us all of it. I realize that fans "want to know", but the more they tell us, the more snags they inadvertently create, and the more holes could get torn in the fabric of the setting. It also ties our hands for future stories (because things get 'set in stone'). And I don't just mean by the authors/designers... WE tell far more stories in the Realms then any of them do, each and every day (in our games).
And for god sakes... go back to the 'uncertain third person' presentation style. IT WORKS - it allows us to change whatever the heck we want, and covers all the bases I mentioned above (in other words, just because some group is worshiping a god, doesn't mean its real). Deities 'active in the Realms' does not = deities that actually exist. Once we realize that, anything is possible.
On Bhaal - he's no different than any other assassin in my book. Let another take the role. Maybe Vhaeraun comes back and takes it. Maybe Set. Maybe Cyric keeps it.
On the gods of magic - Return Mystra/Midnight/Mystryl as an amalgam deity that controls magic in general. Then put in lesser deities of magic that may also have portfolios outside of magic (perhaps Elminster replacing Azuth as god of wizards?), such as Isis (as a goddess of protective magics and wards), Thoth (as a god of research and item creation), Velsharoon (as a god of necromancy and other forbidden arts), Leira in her old role, possibly Savras in his old role, Milil heading up music-based magic, Deneir heading up magic based on truenames and glyphs, Talos (not Gruumsh) as lord of destructive elemental magics, Lurue as a goddess of naturally magical beasts, Auppenser heading up the magic of the mind, and a collective nature deity group heading up nature magics. These are all possibilities, and maybe within their own specialty they can even defy Mystra/Midnight/Mystryl (Midstryl??).
On Myrkul/Kelemvor/Osiris - I like Myrkul as a god. I like Myrkul as a being in the crown of horns. If they make him a god of the dead, just give him a different role (not as judge, but maybe as punisher). On the Kelemvor/Osiris thing, they tried WAAAYYY too much to make Kelemvor like Osiris (I mean both are in love with goddesses of goodly magic). If they want to keep both, its fine by me, but please make them different. Osiris is simply the god of judging the living and the dead in the Mulhorandi pantheon, whereas the two roles are separated in Faerun. Importing Kelemvor and his viewpoints into Mulhorand would be a possibility, but not one I personally relish.
On the war gods (Anhur, Tempus, Garagos, Red Knight) - lets have them all. There's no reason there can't be multiple gods of war.
On Bane - They should develop a schism within Bane's church about whether or not he is in fact Xvim arisen. The two sides should be at odds over who will amass the most power.
On Lathander/Aumanator/Horus-Re (i.e. the Sun Gods)- Aumanator and Horus-Re have very similar outlooks (stern, unchanging law-givers/rulers), Lathander's is very different (more like Apollo). I seriously hated the Aumanator is Lathander idea. The idea that the Sun deities wax and wane in power sounds more like a human invention to explain the change in deities. I'd prefer that all three come back. However, let's give a reason for their all being here. For instance, Lathander is the god of the dawn.... his chariot pulls the sun into the sky (or more appropriately, he causes the world to spin in an even 24 hour pattern). He maintains the birth, renewal, youth, and athletics portfolios like he had. Aumanator is the god of the Sun's unyielding light, he is stern and unflinching, a hater of undead, a bringer of life, etc... Horus-Re is the god of the dying Sun (as Re is dead)... or as some might call him the dusk lord. He is the god of light in an encroaching darkness. He is a protector deity from that which hides in the shadows. He is a revealer of hidden intrigues. All three should have some overlap, such that you can't just kill Aumanator and all of realmspace has no sun.
The intrigue/deception/lies/trickster deities - I'd love to see them come out with a vast plot surrounding Mask and Leira. However, I can also see where some might not like it. What they need to do for all of these intrigue deities in this instance is matter of factly lay out about 3 or 4 optional things for what's happened to Vhaeraun, Leira, Mask, and yes, even Cyric. These beliefs should emphatically show that their adherents firmly believe that they are alive. Perhaps in some instances they even choose to worship multiple of these gods together (for instance, maybe they believe Leira and Mask are partners, mabye they believe Vhaeraun and Mask are the same being, maybe they believe that Leira is controlling Cyric by controlling his delusions). To make matters even more interesting, throw in some other racial pantheon beings (such as Baravar Cloakshadow from the gnomes, Erevan Ilesere of the elves, and Brandobaris of the halflings). The final thing presented should be that all of these beings still exists as gods, and that your campaign should simply use whichever they favor in that instance.
As for the non-human deities - I would prefer there to continue to be racial pantheons of similar size to what was in 3rd edition (maybe some losses in the dwarven and elven). The dwarves, elves, halflings, gnomes, dark elves, orcs, and giants all having a half dozen to a dozen or so racial gods is fine. Then the smaller but still prominent races should have one or two deities specific to them (example, centaurs, gnolls, trolls, etc....). However, some of these smaller but still prominent races should have their deity dead.... and as a result, maybe they've turned to the Faerunian pantheon OR maybe they've turned to demon and devil lords OR maybe they've turned to the courts of the feywild OR maybe even twisted beings of the Far Realm (the derro serving Far Realms entities sounds great).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12022 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2013 : 16:34:57
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Oh, and I'd love to see the Seelie and Unseelie Court fleshed out and presented as powers for worship. Maybe the old lost Yuir powers are rediscovered. I know we've been told that Auril is the Queen of Air and Darkness. I like that idea, especially since its got to gall Shar a little. Let's see a complete (or at least semi-complete) list of the up-to-date "who are the movers and shakers" in each court. Show the ties that existing fey-like deities may have to these courts (for instance, Lurue, Shiallia, Nobanion, Eldath, Miellikki, Auril, Umberlee, Talos, Malar, etc...). If some of this was done in 4th edition and someone can point to it, I'd actually like to read it (I know they did a lot more with the feywild).
On Cyric, let him get infected by the powers of the Far Realms. Let him go absolutely nuts. Maybe he kills Diinkarazan and Diirinka of the derro. Maybe he joins them.
Oh, and let Drasek Riven replace Bhaal in my book. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2013 : 16:46:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I'd have Myrkl released from the crown of horns, but it left its mark on him, made him into the God of Cursed Artifacts. Alternately you could make him the God of the Wall of the Faithless, serving Kelemvour. Or both.
I prefer Velshroon as God of Undeath.
No need for that. There're plenty of portfolios for Myrkul to claim. His original portfolios were the Dead, Wasting, Decay, Corruption, Parasites, Old Age, Dusk, Fall, and Exhaustion. Leave "the Dead" with Kelemvor, reclaim "Fall" from Mielikki, and he's set. Gods draw power from both the strength of their worshippers as well as the power of their portfolio's. Everything wastes away, everything decays, corruption is everywhere, everyone grows old, and dusk falls every day. Although Myrkul being God of Undeath would be neat, he's got plenty of portfolios to fall back on and give his character as a god shape.
As for Bane's holy symbol, I think way too much is being read into it. It's just Bane signifying the unity of Xvim's old church into his new one. Red field, green field, Bane's more concerned about the here and now. It's a new era and he wants there to be unity in his church, where before there was division due to his having the Portfolio of Strife. Nevermind that he has yet another holy symbol in 4E, the one which matches Core Bane. Is that a hint? Does that mean that Core Bane came to the Realms, killed Xvim, and subsumed his worshippers and claimed to be Realms Bane, and now after 100 years of pretending he no longer feels the need to use a holy symbol which evokes the memory of two dead Realmsian gods and can now be more himself? I very much doubt it. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2013 : 17:23:12
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| The idea of a god taking on the appearance of another and gaining power through the worship of the prayers of that gods faithful doesn't sit well with me. What's to stop all gods doing it if that is the case? Prayers are to a specific deity and cannot just be used by a totally different god. |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2013 : 19:02:37
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Nothing does, but it has happened err...7 times I think, making it fully appectable.
Oooo here is an idea, what if Baahl is really AO.....and just been to content to rule over everyone even more, as he just about changes the world to his whim therefore feels no need to do anything more. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2013 : 23:06:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Venger
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I'd have Myrkl released from the crown of horns, but it left its mark on him, made him into the God of Cursed Artifacts. Alternately you could make him the God of the Wall of the Faithless, serving Kelemvour. Or both.
I prefer Velshroon as God of Undeath.
No need for that. There're plenty of portfolios for Myrkul to claim. His original portfolios were the Dead, Wasting, Decay, Corruption, Parasites, Old Age, Dusk, Fall, and Exhaustion. Leave "the Dead" with Kelemvor, reclaim "Fall" from Mielikki, and he's set. Gods draw power from both the strength of their worshippers as well as the power of their portfolio's. Everything wastes away, everything decays, corruption is everywhere, everyone grows old, and dusk falls every day. Although Myrkul being God of Undeath would be neat, he's got plenty of portfolios to fall back on and give his character as a god shape.
As for Bane's holy symbol, I think way too much is being read into it. It's just Bane signifying the unity of Xvim's old church into his new one. Red field, green field, Bane's more concerned about the here and now. It's a new era and he wants there to be unity in his church, where before there was division due to his having the Portfolio of Strife. Nevermind that he has yet another holy symbol in 4E, the one which matches Core Bane. Is that a hint? Does that mean that Core Bane came to the Realms, killed Xvim, and subsumed his worshippers and claimed to be Realms Bane, and now after 100 years of pretending he no longer feels the need to use a holy symbol which evokes the memory of two dead Realmsian gods and can now be more himself? I very much doubt it.
Again, as I've said more than once, the holy symbol is just one of the clues.
And why does a tyrant need to show unity? Tyrants don't make alliances with their lessers, they destroy them or force them into service. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 18 May 2013 23:06:21 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2013 : 23:09:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
The idea of a god taking on the appearance of another and gaining power through the worship of the prayers of that gods faithful doesn't sit well with me. What's to stop all gods doing it if that is the case? Prayers are to a specific deity and cannot just be used by a totally different god.
Easy -- you can't claim to be an active deity, and there are only a limited number of fallen deities whose names and portfolios are up for grabs. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2013 : 23:23:03
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quote:
And why does a tyrant need to show unity? Tyrants don't make alliances with their lessers, they destroy them or force them into service.
Because he's not interested in the same kinds of infighting that was going on inside his church before the Time of Troubles, or to repeat the mistakes of Cyric, who had to undertake the Banedeath to take over. And given that the Church of Bane became an efficient organization after he came back, it looks like he had the right idea. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2013 : 23:51:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Venger
Because he's not interested in the same kinds of infighting that was going on inside his church before the Time of Troubles,[...] And given that the Church of Bane became an efficient organization after he came back, it looks like he had the right idea.
Well, the issue is that gods are as much slaves to their portfolios than they are it's masters.
As long as Bane was also the lord of strife, he just couldn't have an unified efficient church. He had to express strife somehow in his church, and the schism between the othodox banites and the other banites was reflecting that. Bane just couldn't tell them to get along, since this would be anathema to one of his portfolios. |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 00:02:59
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| Yep. I said pretty much the same upthread. "It's a new era and he wants there to be unity in his church, where before there was division due to his having the Portfolio of Strife." He wants people to know that things aren't going to be how it was before, seeing as how many of his worshippers when he came back were some of the same people from before the Time of Troubles. Losing the Portfolio of Strife was probably the best thing that ever happened to him. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 01:30:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I prefer Velshroon as God of Undeath.
I don't know.
From most everything I've read about Velsharoon, he seems pretty set on just being the deity responsible for liches and necromancy. Spreading that focus upon all undead kind of undermines the basic reasoning for his apotheosis. |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 01:49:14
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| How does Szass Tam compare to Velsharoon, as far as power and such, some of the qualities he has displayed when making the rings, seems to be on par of an exarch . |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 02:55:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
The idea of a god taking on the appearance of another and gaining power through the worship of the prayers of that gods faithful doesn't sit well with me. What's to stop all gods doing it if that is the case? Prayers are to a specific deity and cannot just be used by a totally different god.
The way I run it, you don't get power if it's directed at another deity. However, the reason it's done in many cases is to influence the faithful of that deity to be in a more favorable position. The deities themselves are closely bound to their faithful, and as heresies spread deities evolve and change - even if they don't like it.
One of the ways I have deities avoid this is by splitting off their power into lesser aspects. Thus, if you're Ilmater and you have Loviatar giving power to the Cult of Shared Suffering, the way you avoid having that heresy be taken into yourself is by sectioning off a portion of your divine essence into an aspect. You have some influence over this aspect, but you don't get power from it.
The downside of creating aspects is that you become weaker as a result, and it's possible for aspects to effectively "break free" and become fully fledged and independent deities on their own.
In my Realms this is how Mask was formed. He was originally an aspect of Shar that broke free. (Keep in mind that during Shar's time as a Netherese deity she was regarded as the deity of thieves and thieving. This is how I explained the loss of those portfolios.)
So deities are constantly in a balancing act. What among the beliefs of my faithful can I tolerate? How much of myself will I lose? How much power should I sacrifice to maintain my current identity?
This is reflected in heresies and schisms within the churches in the mortal world. For most small heresies they don't matter, it's when they start to become wide-spread that things start to matter.
At least in my Realms, the gods are restricted by Ao on how much they can reveal to their faithful. So they can't simply show up somewhere as an avatar and be all like, "This is a bunch of BS you're being fed by X deity! It's false! Reject it!" The deities primarily only communicate through visions, mostly through dreams, and occasionally manifestations. Avatar's only really come into play when they need to do battle with something significant and powerful - like another deity, or a super powerful mortal.
Avatar's, like aspects, are risky as they reduce the power of a deity upon creation. If someone slays an avatar they have the potential to absorb that divine energy and potentially become a fledgling deity themselves.
This is how I handle it in my Realms, and I believe it is also fairly close to canon. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 04:01:28
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
How does Szass Tam compare to Velsharoon, as far as power and such, some of the qualities he has displayed when making the rings, seems to be on par of an exarch .
Well, Vellie is a god. Szassy is just a lich. Pretty clear statement on power levels, right there. |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 04:35:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
How does Szass Tam compare to Velsharoon, as far as power and such, some of the qualities he has displayed when making the rings, seems to be on par of an exarch .
Well, Vellie is a god. Szassy is just a lich. Pretty clear statement on power levels, right there.
I don't know, the more magic that Szass shows, it seems he boarders along the exarch level of magical abilties |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 04:48:09
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| OMFG...this just dawned on me,.. Vengar , are you the greenknight from WOTC |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 04:52:50
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| As a matter of fact I am. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 05:58:55
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| Yeah, I've been saying the same things for a good long while now. What can I say? Good ideas are worth repeating. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 10:06:35
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I agree, Bane losing strife was the right move to make his church into an instrument to be fear all over Toril. The schism hurt any real progress in the church and now they are unified and if WotC and the writers would give them more justice, should have more impact on the realms again.
I would give strife to a deity of war, like Garagos, that would be fitting for a god of bloodshed and slaughter.
As for Velsharoon: I do still tend to wonder how he as a demi-divine being lost to the Simbul who is a not a divine being? Losing his power to the Spellplague is a cheap move in my opinion. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 11:09:29
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
How does Szass Tam compare to Velsharoon, as far as power and such, some of the qualities he has displayed when making the rings, seems to be on par of an exarch.
Well, Vellie is a god. Szassy is just a lich. Pretty clear statement on power levels, right there.
I don't know, the more magic that Szass shows, it seems he boarders along the exarch level of magical abilties.
Szass Tam had the temerity to summon and bind a greater god (Bane) who didn’t like being summoned and bound (especially moments after the Spellplague struck). He himself admitted that Bane could have escaped from the “magical webs” and destroyed him, but Bane would have had to spend some time and expending some power to break free.
Velsharoon is a lesser god, but a god nonetheless. So while Szass Tam would have a chance against him, considering what he learned from Fastrin’s notes (which aren’t just about the Dread Rings) I doubt he’d have an easy time either. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2013 : 12:24:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertWell, Vellie is a god. Szassy is just a lich. Pretty clear statement on power levels, right there.
A lich who summoned one of the most powerfull greater deities in the pantheon against his will and crafted wards that kept said deity from leavint 
Based on that he should easily be able to dominate demi and lesser deities.
To me this scene was a low point of an otherwise good trilogy, especially for all it's implications
quote:
Originally posted by DennisSzass Tam had the temerity to summon and bind a greater god (Bane) who didn’t like being summoned and bound (especially moments after the Spellplague struck). He himself admitted that Bane could have escaped from the “magical webs” and destroyed him, but Bane would have had to spend some time and expending some power to break free.
Which to me is so wrong on so many levels. Tam shouldn't have been able to summon Bane in the first place and his Bane should have shattered his puny ward while leaving without even noticing that he just shattered a binding that was supposed to hold him.
If one of the most powerfull greater deities can be treated that way and would need to expend so much to escape, what does this say about a demi or lesser deity that find herself in the same situation?
Also it's really incosistent with how deities are treated in Paul S. Kemp's novels.
There a being that barely qualifies as a godling by having gained a fraction of a fraction of divinity is a being of awe that puts fear into archwizards.
But if Tam is able to summon greater deities and Telemont is unsure if he's able to take on a petty godling, than Tam > Telemont but such a huge margin that it wouldn't even be considered a fight.
If Tam can treat greater deities this way and Telemont not even minor godlings, than Tam should be able to just teleport over and take controll of Netheril, killing Telemont who should be to weak to resist him in any way (and all of the other princes who are even weaker too if they don't immediately bow down to him)
If the exchange between Bane and Tam would have been between Velsharoon and Tam or if it had been made clear that it was just an aspect of Bane, the whole scene would have been much better.
I really think the writers needs to get together and work out some set of hard guidelines everyone needs to follow. This novels are all set in the same setting and even if the characters never met in the novels, their deeds and capabilities should be measurable on the same scale.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord BaneAs for Velsharoon: I do still tend to wonder how he as a demi-divine being lost to the Simbul who is a not a divine being? Losing his power to the Spellplague is a cheap move in my opinion.
Do we know if they really fought or if maybe the Simbul just found his unconscious form and destroyed it before he would awaken again (much like Asmodeus did with Azuth)
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Edited by - Mirtek on 19 May 2013 12:31:39 |
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taking bets on 5e gods
