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Originally posted by Aryalómë
I got extremely annoyed by this. There were several deities for women, but none for men. Why is D&D so sexist like this?

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So you're complaining that D&D is sexist, but then asking about organizations that specifically exclude women? Isn't that sexist, in and of itself?

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Originally posted by Aryalómë

That's STILL not what I'm talking about, though. I don't want just a group who's just predominantly male, I want a group who is together for the same reason as the all female groups form.

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Originally posted by Aryalómë

I mean, you don't even have a single prestige class that is for males only; it's all just heavily unfair and I'm extremely tired of it.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Aryalómë

That's STILL not what I'm talking about, though. I don't want just a group who's just predominantly male, I want a group who is together for the same reason as the all female groups form.

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Because they've been overlooked, underestimated, oppressed, disrespected, and otherwise dismissed by the opposite gender?

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Originally posted by Aryalómë

I mean, you don't even have a single prestige class that is for males only; it's all just heavily unfair and I'm extremely tired of it.

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So it's heavily unfair to have something exclusive to one gender, and the only way to make it fair is to continue perpetuating gender exclusion?

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Originally posted by Markustay

Once you create any law/ruling that has to protect a specific group, you are then singling it out, which is the worst kind of prejudice.

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Originally posted by Aryalómë

@Markustay; Affirmative Action is extremely prejudiced against people of European background mostly; especially European descended men.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

No, I'm saying that complaining about gender exclusion and asking for more of it seems a bit odd. If something is bad, why do you want more of it?

It's also very ironic, because the usual complaint about sexism in fantasy is about how women are portrayed.

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Originally posted by Aldrick

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Originally posted by Markustay

Once you create any law/ruling that has to protect a specific group, you are then singling it out, which is the worst kind of prejudice.

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Originally posted by Aryalómë

@Markustay; Affirmative Action is extremely prejudiced against people of European background mostly; especially European descended men.

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#Privilege



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I'm going to pretend the above exchange didn't happen, and instead focus on answering your question. I have no idea if this is what you're talking about or not, and it certainly isn't canon. However, in my Realms the primary cult of Lathander in Chessenta is male only. They only accept male clergy and male members. Females can offer tribute to Lathander, but they can't be members of the cult.

Lathander is regarded as the deity of athletics, vitality, youth, and self-perfection in Chessenta. One of the things I wanted to do with Lathander in Chessenta - especially after the Amaunator heresy - was to differentiate his cult worship from the Heartlands and the North.

The male only part is a result of influence from the Mulan culture, tradition, and a huge admiration for the male body. Lathander is seen as the idealized form of male beauty. As characterized by Aristophanes a playwright of ancient Athens, the idealized male body was: "a gleaming chest, bright skin, broad shoulders, tiny tongue, strong buttocks, and a little prick." Statues of Lathander, which can be found pretty much in every city in Chessenta, reflect these preferences.

Chessenta is heavily inspired by ancient Greek culture, and I attempted to infuse it with a number of different elements from that culture. Canonically, athletics, wrestling in particular, is very important and popular culturally. The wrestling is done in the nude as it was done in ancient Greece. As the link points out the word Gymnasium comes from the Ancient Greek term gymnós which means "naked".

According to the myths of the cult Lathander was challenged by three powerful spirits: one was a spirit of contests, another was a spirit of rivalry, and the last was a spirit of victory. The youthful deity was known for his arrogance, but also his cunning so accepted the challenge. They engaged in various competitions, with the spirits attempting to trick him at every turn. However his cunning and creativity allowed him to see through their tricks, and he eventually won. All who participated offered something as a bet. Lathander promised them portions of his divinity should he lose, and they promised to teach him their secrets should he win. This is how Lathander became the patron god of the games, and the deity of athletics, vitality, youth, and self-perfection.

This roughly mirrors what scholars believe happened. There are a number of speculative origins for Lathander, but the most popular is that he may have been an ancient Turmani deity of the dawn, renewal, creativity, and birth. He was likely seen as a patron deity of children, particularly a protector of children, but also a symbol of new beginnings. ("Each child holds within them the spark of creativity, and each birth is a sign of renewal just as the dawn pushes back the dark to renew the day.")

After the fall of the Imaskari Empire in –2488 DR the Turmani were displaced by the Mulan, and were forced to migrate west along the southern coast of the Sea of Fallen Stars. Today, the Turmani primarily make up the bulk of the Turmish population but can also be found as a minority group in Mulhorand, Unther, Chessenta, and Chondath. During their migration their deities intermixed with deities brought over by the Imaskari slaves, which largely wiped out their pantheon. One of the exceptions may be Lathander.

Lathander is believed to have been challenged by three quasi-deities. (These would correlate to the Greek spirits Agon the spirit of contest, who possessed the altar at the Olympic Games, Zelos the spirit of rivalry and envy, and finally Nike (or Nicé) the spirit of victory in both battle and peaceful competition.) They attempted to defeat him in an effort to take his divinity and become full deities themselves. They failed and he absorbed them instead.

This in turn led to him gaining the portfolios of athletics, vitality, youth, and self-perfection. As one might expect those who take Lathander as their patron are athletes, those that aspire to be athletes, or those who have a strong devotion to the games and competitions. He is praised publicly before every game and competition, as people ask him to bless the competition, punish those who cheat, grant strength to the worthy, etc.

It's difficult to overstate how influential the cult is in Chessenta. No games or competitions can even be called without the blessing of the priests of Lathander. One of the major ways a noble or anyone of worth gains prestige in Chessenta is by sponsoring athletes in the games, and by "sponsoring" I mean paying money to the cult of Lathander. Prospective athletes are constantly seeking a patron, and the most successful athletes are like modern day pop stars. People throw themselves at you, you're able to get away with minor crimes with a slap on the wrist, and you have tons and tons of groupies who all want to worship you. They want you at parades and festivals. The wealthy and politically ambitious want to be seen with you.

However, the cult doesn't just make money off of the patronage of their athletes. Gambling on the games is encouraged and run by the cult as well. On top of that you have priests willing to accept offerings made to Lathander on behalf of your favorite athlete. Are you gambling? Then you'd best make an offering to Lathander and pray for your chosen athlete to increase your odds of winning!

Despite its influence and wealth, the cult is small. As previously mentioned it only accepts men as members. It's priesthood is all male as are all the athletes. Though Lathander receives quite a bit of praise when it comes time for competition and games, those who take him as their patron deity are usually athletes.

What really makes it different from other cults that you might see in the Realms is that it's somewhat like a mystery religion. It has many secret rites, rituals, and practices that are taught to athletes who hope to gain an edge and an advantage in the games.

Ironically, it's for this reason that the other cults of Lathander view the cult in Chessenta as heretical. Many of the secret practices that leak out really horrify the non-Chessentan cultists of Lathander. Not particularly because they're evil or anything, but mostly for the squick factor. They are also deemed heretical for their hero worship, which is actually quite common in Chessenta, but most obvious in the worship of Lathander. Great deceased heroic athletes are commonly called upon by living athletes to intercede on their behalf and assist them in earning Lathander's favor.

The western and northern cults of Lathander regularly send missionaries to Chessenta in an attempt to sway the folk of Chessenta from their heretical ways (as well as to work against the cult of Lathander there), though they have never had any serious success. When the Amaunator heresy appeared and started to sweep the western and northern cults, it had no impact on the cult in Chessenta. This remains true in my Realms even after the Spellplague.

Obviously, none of this is canon. However, I offer it up as something that might be useful in a home campaign.

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I'm sure if we quantified the representation of males and females there would be more males (as I posted about the number of greater deities who are male versus female) All the female only groups are noted exactly because it comes off as unusual (witches of Rashemen, drow matriarchy, etc.) while male dominated groups are portrayed as being the norm regardless of Ed's personal beliefs.

-The Princes of Shade (all male. In addition to Hadrhune and Telamont being male) Most of the other cunning villains are like this. Women are usually portrayed as emotionally unstable as the motivator for their evil. Envious, jealous, beautiful or hideously ugly,...
-The Zulkirs of Thay were primarily male and the female Zulkirs were in feminine seeming forms of magic (Abjuration, Illusion, and Divination)

-Female deities are primarily in traditionally female areas (Chauntea = agriculture, Sune = beauty, Selune = unstable moody moon goddess....) So there's an all female order dedicated to flowers who worship Chauntea? I see how oppressive that must be to the original poster *eyes roll* The evil female deities are also given typical female roles Loviatar = Dominatrix, Shar = jealous bitter, Talona = jealous bitter, Beshaba = jealous bitter, Umberlee= jealous bitter, Lolth = jealous + bitter,...as the driving force for their existence and their evil. They are all bitter and angry and less important than their male counterparts. Male deities and characters are given more diverse characteristics that aren't as stereotypical in general.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

No, I'm saying that complaining about gender exclusion and asking for more of it seems a bit odd. If something is bad, why do you want more of it?

It's also very ironic, because the usual complaint about sexism in fantasy is about how women are portrayed.

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Originally posted by Aryal�m�
One has to be completely blind to not see a problem here.

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Originally posted by Aryalómë

Just as a sisterhood creates bonds between its members, so too could a brotherhood.

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Originally posted by Aryalómë

No one needs to be sexist in order to have an organization dedicated or devoted to one gender.

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Originally posted by Aryalómë

One has to be completely blind to not see a problem here.

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Originally posted by Aryalómë

Your Realms does not equal canon Realms, so your argument and wall of text mean nothing and even after reading it do no

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quote:

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Originally posted by Aryalómë

I got extremely annoyed by this. There were several deities for women, but none for men. Why is D&D so sexist like this?

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Originally posted by The Sage

I'm a little disturbed by the recent bout of exchanges between a number of scribes in this scroll.

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Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

I hope by "scribes" you mean to include your fellow moderator. Take it from a guy who knows: that was a textbook perfect example of trolling on Wooly's part.

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Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

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Originally posted by The Sage

I'm a little disturbed by the recent bout of exchanges between a number of scribes in this scroll.

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I hope by "scribes" you mean to include your fellow moderator. Take it from a guy who knows: that was a textbook perfect example of trolling on Wooly's part.

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Originally posted by EytanBernstein

So there are no doubt male-centric and female-centric religions, but these are the exception, not the rule.

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