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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
 Posted - 01 May 2013 : 18:09:55
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So your math indicates slave owner lost money?
In some ways I have seen this being discussed as a possible economic out come. That between market price of product, more slaves work to lower sales value of product. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2013 : 18:10:54
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Obie - I'm impressed! Thanks for laying all of that out.
I think that what you're saying, just to be sure I'm understanding correctly, is that all of these historians have analyzed the price of slaves, taking into account distance traveled, gender, skilled and unskilled, location, inflation, etc., etc. After all of that analysis, there emerges a pattern that overlays all of those external forces - the cost of a slave was equal to a certain ratio of his or her ability to produce wealth (goods, harvesting of crops, etc) for the buyer. The number that seems to rise to the top was that a slave cost approximately 5% more than the estimated value of their production in a year. (We can ignore the 112% number for the Realms because mechanized agriculture is not a significant factor there.)
The reason that you believe that this ratio can then be translated into the Realms is that it is the result of a broad, far-reaching analysis that takes into account so many variables.
I have two further comments/questions.
1. When discussing domestic slaves, such as maids, housekeepers, cooks, etc., can we still use this ratio? Is the cost of the "production" then determined by the amount that the prospective slave owner would pay if hiring someone to perform the task?
2. Can we use this ratio when discussing highly specialized slaves? Your examples almost exclusively deal with agricultural or other types of manual laborers. This is appropriate because the vast number of slaves in the world and in the Realms were acquired to perform those kinds of tasks. However, in the Realms there are also a smaller, but not insignificant, number of highly specialized slaves.
Dwarves, deep gnomes, or the like enslaved in drow crafting shops, as one example that springs to mind. On the one hand, one might think that the resulting higher amount of wealth produced by specialized labor would be reflected in his or her purchase price via the ratio you lay out. On the other, it may be anachronistic to apply that ratio to a situation that didn't exist in that context. Would looking at specialized slave labor under the Romans be more appropriate in this instance, for example?
Edited for spelling. |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
Edited by - Emma Drake on 01 May 2013 19:20:24 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2013 : 19:15:15
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Emma, you have to add in holding costs as well.
A person can purchase a horse, however the horse will soon die if not fed and housed.
Slaves also need to be fed and housed, depending on nature also guarded, a minimum amount of clothing provided as well. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2013 : 19:25:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
So your math indicates slave owner lost money?
The slave owner loses money if the slave dies before their purchase cost has been paid for by the "free labor" - a little over a year using this 105% ratio. It's 105% of the first year's labor, not the total labor he or she produce over his or her lifetime. At least in the context that Obie is discussing, ~25% of slaves did die in the first year - I think this is why he refers to slavery not being very profitable if you have a small number of slaves.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Emma, you have to add in holding costs as well.
Yes, there is certainly a "holding" cost, but the numbers the OP is looking for here aren't about that. We're just trying to get the cost of a slave if you were to buy one. Maintenance is another issue and outlined very clearly in the source material in terms of daily rations for individuals, costs of structures, etc. |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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Obie
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2013 : 20:42:28
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I made one of the cardinal sins of an academic, which has lead to a bit of confusion: I simplified for the sake of brevity. Let me try again to explain the ratios that Eltis, Lewis and Richardson put forward in their article.
First, let me correct the error I made in simplifying Eltis' numbers (and, rather than type out Eltis, Lewis and Richardson every time, I am just going to go with Eltis). In writing the post last evening, I considered giving the range of price to production ratios that Eltis' numbers provide, but decided to cut them in the name of writing a simpler post. I should have noted that from 1710-14 the average production to price ratio was 41.71%, but that from 1725-29, the ratio sat at 195.81%. In other words: if a slave buyer purchased a slave in 1711 for 40 l, the average return in production that that slave produced in 1712 probably sat around 100 l. On the other hand, a slave purchased for 40 l in 1727 might only see a return of 23 l in the first year. As I mentioned before: slave prices were in constant flux, but, they were not the only commodity whose price changed seemingly on a whim. An individual in the slave market in 1715 could not predict that his slave would produce sugar worth nearly twice his purchase price in a single year, any more than the buyer in 1727 could see his slave would make less than half of his value back in a single year. Commodity prices dictated whether or not your participation in the slave economy was profitable or not.
On top of that: if you purchased a slave for 40 l in 1714, and he died in the same year (as nearly a quarter of African slaves transported to the Americas did in their first year of bondage), you were out the 40 l with nothing to show for it. In this way slavery could be enormously unprofitable. But, for most slaves the average lifespan in slavery in the Americas was somewhere around 7-9 years. Even in the leanest years, when the price of slaves was nearly double their production, slave owners likely were able to recoup their initial investment fairly quickly.
Now, one thing that Kentinal is correct in pointing out is, the purchase price of a slave is not the final cost one paid for the service of their slave. Food, clothing, shelter, and other miscellaneous costs come associated with simply keeping a slave alive and productive. These costs also ate into the profits of slave owners. But, for the purposes of D&D this calculation is much simpler. We have prices for the cost of day labor in the Realms. If we assume the price of labor for a free worker to be 1s/day (again: I am using 1s/day so as to make the math a little easier), then to employ a free worker every day of the year would cost 3g 65 silver. If 3g 65s is enough to feed, clothe, and house a free worker, then, it is probably more than enough to do the same for a slave. In fact, we might also consider that of the 1s cost, not all of that goes to paying for the day to day sustenance of the worker, but, that some of it is simple markup. If we subtract the markup (which I figure to be about 25%) out of the 3g 65s, we get 2g 73s 75c, or the likely pure cost of keeping a single individual alive and well for one year. Scale that to the number of slaves an individual has, and we might be approaching an answer to the question of whether or not keeping slaves was profitable.
Now to answer Emma's questions: First, yes, this ratio is a composite of the average cost of a slave versus the average production of a slave. The numbers Eltis sifted through to create these ratios -- something on the order of 200,000 slave purchases -- surely included domestic as well as field laborers. The production number that Eltis goes with is tied to the average price of sugar per hundredweight (or, roughly 112 lbs) during the corresponding years. Slaves generally produced more than one hundredweight per slave per year, so any lost production from the use of slaves as domestics, is likely washed out by the sheer size of production. But, one of the weaknesses of this sort of analysis is it is extremely macro: you do not get a good sense of what is happening on the ground for individual planters.
I think in the case of specialized slaves, this ratio might be helpful, but, may also be a hindrance to figuring out price. If, for example, a child sun elf goes on the market in Skullport, you can assume its price will shoot upwards of..oh..say 40,000 gp, with no expected return in production. But, outside of that sort of circumstance, we do see evidence of skilled slaves -- either goldsmiths or ropemakers or whathaveyou -- having a noticeably higher price than the common field slave, but there is no study that I know of that looks at the price of skilled laborers as a class. One might give skilled slaves a markup of 25-50% depending on the skill they have, and other factors. Slaves with class levels, or the ability to make magic items, might see an increase of 2-300% owing to their rarity and the great profits that one could expect to reap from their labor. |
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Doge
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2013 : 13:17:03
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| Thanks Obie for making the time to visit and contribute on our little thead. But how about slave soldiers? They don't produce anything. I'm guessing the only benefit to them is that you don't need to pay them salaries. And you could do anything to them. Try reading about Morocco's Black Guard. Elite slave soldiers. These guys were loyal to the death to their sultan. Funny because their sultan was so bloody heartless. He'd kill a couple of his Black Guards on a whim just because he felt like it. He'll stab one with a new sword just to test it out yet these guys would still protect him to the death. |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2013 : 01:12:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Doge
Thanks Obie for making the time to visit and contribute on our little thead. But how about slave soldiers? They don't produce anything. I'm guessing the only benefit to them is that you don't need to pay them salaries. And you could do anything to them. Try reading about Morocco's Black Guard. Elite slave soldiers. These guys were loyal to the death to their sultan. Funny because their sultan was so bloody heartless. He'd kill a couple of his Black Guards on a whim just because he felt like it. He'll stab one with a new sword just to test it out yet these guys would still protect him to the death.
If you accept the premise that a slave's cost to purchase is equal to ~105% of their production in the first year of ownership, you can calculate those numbers for soldiers. In the case of slaves that perform tasks rather than produce products, you look to the cost of hiring someone for the same job.
According to the Pathfinder system (Jade Regent Player's Guide), the cost of certain services that might line up with what you're looking for are as follows:
Guard - 100gp monthly
Valet - 300gp monthly
The valet doesn't quite fit because the job is not combat-oriented, but guard is not nearly as trusted or reliable as you're looking for. My instinct is that the cost would lay closer to the number for a valet than that of a guard, but due to the fact that the elite soldiers are not personal servants who have the kinds of responsibilities of a valet or majordomo, the number is not quite that high. I'm going to say 250g/month is a workable figure.
250g x 12 months = 3000g, then multiplied by 105% = 3150g
When compared to the fact that in the Pathfinder Adventurer's Armory, the cost of a specialized slave is approximately 500g, this figure is quite high. However, since this is a highly trained slave from childhood who would let you stab him without flinching, I don't think it's a wildly inaccurate estimate for that system.
In 2e, however, the numbers are much, much lower. If you look in the 2e DMG, the highest cost/month of a specialized soldier is 10gp/month for a heavy calvaryman. Then you jump to 150gp for an engineer, 200gp for a herald, and 300gp for a castellan. None of those higher salary categories really fit. But if you assume that a similar increase might exist in 2e as exists in Pathfinder between soldiers/guards and trusted servants, you can use the number 25gp per month.
25gp x 12 months = 300gp x 105% = 315gp.
That's what I'm thinking anyway... there certainly doesn't seem to be anything specific that would address your inquiry. |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2013 : 07:03:36
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| its interesting that you pointed out the cost of a day laborer at 1 silver per day. That's one thing where I feel they went way UNDER on pricing. A dagger costs 2 gold. A sling bullet (essentially a glob of metal poured in a mold and left to sit) costs 1 sp. A day's worth of poor meals is 1 sp. I submit that the person that did the DMG section for labor costs needs to increase those costs significantly (I'm thinking maybe quintupling the costs on the poorer ones, so that they can at least pay for poor meals for themselves and perhaps 2 children and still have enough to pay for lodging of some sort.... maybe not as great as a poor inn stay.... but maybe enough to let you sleep in the hayloft or outside in a tent), with the understanding in place that that's the long term retention prices still (hiring someone short term probably triples the price per day). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2013 : 16:07:11
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1 silver a day is untrained worker, after a year working a task considered a skill or profession, at least 1 skill point should be earned with resulting increase in wage.
quote:
Untrained laborers and assistants (that is, characters without any ranks in Profession) earn an average of 1 silver piece per day.
Though indeed D&D does not do economics well at all. The focus of the game as far as wealth goes is the PCs finding treasure.
As for living on 1 silver a day. A work day appears to be 8 hours so there is time to hunt wild food, having shelter might be offered by employer if wants the worker available two or more days in a row.
Bread costs 2 cp of i/2 pound, also
1 cp One pound of wheat
2 cp One pound of flour, or one chicken
Buy a chicken and bread you have a meal and even some money left over even earning 1 sp a day. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2013 : 16:36:18
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Since the OP used the example of the Unsullied...
From A Song of Ice and Fire: "Three ships full of costly goods are enough to be a thousand of Unsullied. A rich and elaborate crown may be enough to buy two more centuries. Three vessels, a cog and two galleys, could suffice for another thousand or two." (III:306)
In that universe, somewhere between 1 and 2 thousand unsullied cost a cog, and two galleys full of costly goods. 2 galleys without costly goods in 2e is 50,000gp, plus a cog is 10,000gp for a total of 60,000. (Of Ships and the Sea) Each galley can carry 150,000 lbs of goods and a cog can carry around 100,000, for a total of around 350,000 lbs of goods.
What are costly goods? In the Realms costly (but not luxury) goods might be paper/books (~10gp/lb), nice candles (7sp/lb), matzican white (light) (3gp/lb), medium wool (1gp/lb), wheat flour (3gp/lb), silk rope (8sp/lb), feather bed (8sp/lb), brown sugar (1gp/lb), olive oil (6sp/lb), and so on... (Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue) Doing the quick and dirty math on those first few things that popped into my mind... you might estimate that costly goods would range somewhere around 2.3 gp/lb.
2.3gp/lb x 350,000 lbs = 805,000gp
805,000gp + 60,000gp (cost of ships themselves) = 865,000gp
865,000gp/1000 unsullied = 865gp each; 865,000/2000 unsullied = 435gp each.
That's a range of 435gp-865gp for such an elite soldier.
Considering that I was using the retail numbers from the Aurora's catalogue, not what one might pay wholesale for these kinds of goods, the range cost range could probably be lower. (A google search for a simple overhead to wholesale to retail cost ratio is something along the lines of - production costs x2 = wholesale; wholesale x2 = retail) Slashing the numbers from Aurora's in half to reflect wholesale costs of goods brings the range to 220gp-430gp. Which is surprisingly (or not, perhaps) spot on with the number you might come up with using Obie's ratio.
Edited for math. |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
Edited by - Emma Drake on 04 May 2013 14:00:06 |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2013 : 16:52:22
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Sleyvas/Kentinal,
While I'll be the first to agree that D&D in general (and other related systems) usually do a pretty poor job simulating economics (or law, or anything outside the realm of warfare and some politics) they aren't SO far off on wages owing to the little considered fact that a monied economy is really only for 'the rich' or urban dwellers in a largely rural, largely feudal world such as the Realms. For every one city dweller there must be countless farmers living in the little thorps and hamlets off the beaten path surrounding the cities (in the Middle Ages the ratio of farmers to city dwellers was something like 9 to 1). Otherwise there would be no food to feed Waterdeep's (or worse yet, Calimport's!) masses. In the lowest levels of the rural/feudal socio-economic spectrum most people have little need for coin. They own (or work) farms, grow their own food, make their own clothes, and barter for most everything else they need. When a mug of middling ale can be had at the local tavern (if there is one) for 1cp and a good local one for 2cp to 3cp then a farm worker can easily survive on 1sp a day.
I realize the situation is a little different for city workers, but many of them have the cost of food subsidized by their employers (household staff would for sure and laborers could 'buy' simple food stuffs as part of their compensation from their employer at greatly reduced rates - a 'company store ploughman's lunch' if you will). If they are lucky enough to be married and have children, those wives and children also can contribute side labor to feeding the family (all those lamp boys wandering the streets of Waterdeep aren't thieves or enterprising 12 year olds living life alone you know!). Even now people in the lowest quintile of earnings obtain a large percentage of their earnings in what we often see referred to as 'the cash economy' (i.e. off the books earning) and what would be a barter based economy more so than a coin based one in places like the Realms. |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Doge
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2013 : 06:39:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
Since the OP used the example of the Unsullied...
From A Song of Ice and Fire: "Three ships full of costly goods are enough to be a thousand of Unsullied. A rich and elaborate crown may be enough to buy two more centuries. Three vessels, a cog and two galleys, could suffice for another thousand or two." (III:306)
In that universe, somewhere between 1 and 2 thousand unsullied cost a cog, and two galleys full of costly goods. 2 galleys without costly goods in 2e is 50,000gp, plus a cog is 15,000gp for a total of 60,000. (Of Ships and the Sea) Each galley can carry 150,000 lbs of goods and a cog can carry around 100,000, for a total of around 350,000 lbs of goods.
What are costly goods? In the Realms costly (but not luxury) goods might be paper/books (~10gp/lb), nice candles (7sp/lb), matzican white (light) (3gp/lb), medium wool (1gp/lb), wheat flour (3gp/lb), silk rope (8sp/lb), feather bed (8sp/lb), brown sugar (1gp/lb), olive oil (6sp/lb), and so on... (Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue) Doing the quick and dirty math on those first few things that popped into my mind... you might estimate that costly goods would range somewhere around 2.3 gp/lb.
2.3gp/lb x 350,000 lbs = 805,000gp
805,000gp + 60,000gp (cost of ships themselves) = 865,000gp
865,000gp/1000 unsullied = 865gp each; 865,000/2000 unsullied = 435gp each.
That's a range of 435gp-865gp for such an elite soldier.
Considering that I was using the retail numbers from the Aurora's catalogue, not what one might pay wholesale for these kinds of goods, the range cost range could probably be lower. (A google search for a simple overhead to wholesale to retail cost ratio is something along the lines of - production costs x2 = wholesale; wholesale x2 = retail) Slashing the numbers from Aurora's in half to reflect wholesale costs of goods brings the range to 220gp-430gp. Which is surprisingly (or not, perhaps) spot on with the number you might come up with using Obie's ratio.
Wow! Thanks Emma! This is more than what I expected. You really went the extra mile on this. This info will be put to good use I promise. Your hard work will not be in vain. Thanks again Emma. |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2013 : 14:24:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Doge
Wow! Thanks Emma! This is more than what I expected. You really went the extra mile on this. This info will be put to good use I promise. Your hard work will not be in vain. Thanks again Emma.
You're welcome. It's, of course, not scientific in the least, but at least it gives you a ballpark figure of what might be appropriate.
In later editions the number would be a lot higher, but I didn't feel like doing that math more than once, heh. |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Learned Scribe
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2013 : 22:21:45
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i've found a price for slaves in the Realms (page 87? of FRCS 3.0) under the commerce section:
"A strong, healthy slave costs between 50 and 100 gold pieces in lands where slavery is common."
It mentions Thay, Mulhorand, Zentil Keep, Unther, and Mulmaster as the places where slavery is common. Zhentarim, Thayan enclaves and pirates of the Inner Sea as the major slavers/slave rings. |
"Sweet water and light laughter until next we meet." - traditional elven farewell
Please forgive any spelling and grammer errors, as my android touch-screen phone has no spellchecker. If I do make a grammer mistake, please let me know and I'll try to fix it.
New laptop, still trying to sort my "scrolls" on its shelves...and when will this cursed thing stop doing things I tell it not to?  |
Edited by - Xnella Moonblade-Thann on 05 May 2013 22:23:43 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2013 : 14:45:09
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| You know what's sad.... so, I've been dating a woman for the last year. She is NOT a gamer, nor is she drawn to sci-fi, fantasy, etc... When I said "Boba Fett" once, I got such a blank stare that I just had to laugh. I sometimes drop terms that I think anyone would be somewhat familiar with (centaur, minotaur, pixie, Thor, Loki, etc...) only to get similar stares. So, I was driving a long distance yesterday with her, and I get the question "what are you thinking about?". I was honestly thinking about this thread, and I thought... well, she'll at least get the idea. So, I told her we had been talking about the cost of buying and selling slaves online and how to determine it. I saw this look cross her face like "what kind of unholy stuff are you guys talking about". I then had to explain how there are different types of slavery (thanks Obie). I then had to explain that part of the draw for me to this conversation was also "how does magic affect slavery", so I started talking about people making golems and how that would be considered "cleaner" by most people, but reanimating a skeleton would be more "natural" since a body is "used" to being ambient and thereby easier to do with magic. She still didn't get it, because her next response was, "but why would they need slaves, if there's magic around why not just want it done and all the food gets processed". Man, it can be hard to convince someone that "wish" is one of the most powerful forms of magic around. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2013 : 15:41:27
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
You know what's sad.... so, I've been dating a woman for the last year. She is NOT a gamer, nor is she drawn to sci-fi, fantasy, etc... When I said "Boba Fett" once, I got such a blank stare that I just had to laugh. I sometimes drop terms that I think anyone would be somewhat familiar with (centaur, minotaur, pixie, Thor, Loki, etc...) only to get similar stares. So, I was driving a long distance yesterday with her, and I get the question "what are you thinking about?". I was honestly thinking about this thread, and I thought... well, she'll at least get the idea. So, I told her we had been talking about the cost of buying and selling slaves online and how to determine it. I saw this look cross her face like "what kind of unholy stuff are you guys talking about". I then had to explain how there are different types of slavery (thanks Obie). I then had to explain that part of the draw for me to this conversation was also "how does magic affect slavery", so I started talking about people making golems and how that would be considered "cleaner" by most people, but reanimating a skeleton would be more "natural" since a body is "used" to being ambient and thereby easier to do with magic. She still didn't get it, because her next response was, "but why would they need slaves, if there's magic around why not just want it done and all the food gets processed". Man, it can be hard to convince someone that "wish" is one of the most powerful forms of magic around.
lol |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2013 : 15:56:27
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Magic of course should be at least considered. [i]Charm[i] does impose a type of slavery, though not normally considered in that light. As far as the girl friend goes you only need to indicate to her there are limits of the amount of magic. Even she should be aware a genie only grants three wishes (1) and genies are hard to find. *Wink*
One example of limit of magic was a discussion concerning being under seige. Being cut off from food and perhaps water as well there would be a limit of how many people a Cleric or group of them could keep alive the defenders after supplies were all gone.
(1) actually some genies would grant more then three wishes, but even they did not grant a wish ever hour. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2013 : 04:51:20
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One thing I'm interested in:
How did the removal of bodies of slave populations from their point of origin impact that place?
For example: with so many slaves being taken from the Moonsea, how does that affect the population over all...both from a population/numbers standpoint, and also from an economic standpoint? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2013 : 11:43:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
One thing I'm interested in:
How did the removal of bodies of slave populations from their point of origin impact that place?
For example: with so many slaves being taken from the Moonsea, how does that affect the population over all...both from a population/numbers standpoint, and also from an economic standpoint?
Depends on the area I'd bet. For instance, were Sembian sheriffs secretly selling prisoners? If so, it could have had a somewhat positive impact (no one wants to break the law and lawbreakers don't have to be cared for). Are adventurers taking dangerous humanoid populations captive and selling them? Again, possibly positive impact for the human population, and the society with the stomach for it puts the humanoids to good use besides just killing them. Is an unscrupulous undertaker selling the bodies of John Doe victims for re-animation? This causes a hidden positive economic impact. Or are human slaves being taken by force, property damage incurred, etc... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lothlos
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 14:39:54
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| Great thread. Thanks for all the excellent information and hard work. |
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.
-J.R.R. Tolkien
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2013 : 18:18:49
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
One thing I'm interested in:
How did the removal of bodies of slave populations from their point of origin impact that place?
For example: with so many slaves being taken from the Moonsea, how does that affect the population over all...both from a population/numbers standpoint, and also from an economic standpoint?
Depends on the area I'd bet. For instance, were Sembian sheriffs secretly selling prisoners? If so, it could have had a somewhat positive impact (no one wants to break the law and lawbreakers don't have to be cared for). Are adventurers taking dangerous humanoid populations captive and selling them? Again, possibly positive impact for the human population, and the society with the stomach for it puts the humanoids to good use besides just killing them. Is an unscrupulous undertaker selling the bodies of John Doe victims for re-animation? This causes a hidden positive economic impact. Or are human slaves being taken by force, property damage incurred, etc...
A lot of the time, slavers would pay locals for doing the actual rounding up of new slaves. Catch us your neighbor and we will pay you in some fashion. Oftentimes this was done in weapons instead of currency.
Extending this idea into the realms, I imagine that the Zhentarim would prefer this method. Weaken an area by depleting its population and at the same time create a group of 'loyal' locals to help in the areas eventual take-over. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2013 : 04:00:58
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| I'll sell you an invisible pixie for $150. I accept PayPal, cash and all major credit cards. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Alruane
Senior Scribe
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2013 : 06:43:13
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| Oh wow, never knew you could do this! Remarkable! |
" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
~Joneleth Irenicus
"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answers."
~Alruane |
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genebateman
Acolyte
23 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2013 : 23:36:32
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LORDS OF MADNESS has a formula for slaves
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2013 : 00:50:16
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I seem to recall in the novel Prince of Ravens, a drow priestess was offering to buy a group of slave surface commoners for 5 gold apiece. Considering drow place absolutely NO value on a slave and view it as nothing more than a pair of hands, I could see this working.
Really it probably depends on how prevalent gold is in your campaign.
Personally, I have an issue if we have say a dozen 1st and 2nd level slavers / highwaymen who have say just sold their 20 slaves they captured for 100 gold apiece. This could just be me, but handing the party 2,000 gold (100x20) for their first adventure is a bad idea. 100 gold (5x20) is much better. Too easy to fall into the Monty Haul trap if you set the stage with such a treasure trove. But, if that's how you like to roll with your campaigns do what you will. Just my thoughts, and I'm known to be crazy. bwahahah |
Edited by - Eilserus on 07 Dec 2013 00:57:30 |
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How much do slaves cost?
