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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Mar 2013 : 14:32:03
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I know a few months ago I had put forth an idea for Thayans resettling in the Shaar and forming a new kingdom which I dubbed the United Tharchions of the Shaar. However, I also know now that only roughly 20 years is going to pass between editions, so I doubt that this much change would be allowed. However, we also know that portions of Faerun may be returning and 100+ years have passed since they left.
Since some Thayan enclaves may have passed over as part of the spellplague AND the sudden change in their surroundings may have thoroughly shook up the reigning governments in the city to which they were tied AND the Thayans are a fairly close knit nearby community who it ruthless enough to take control.... might they have seized control of a city in which they'd been allowed? Moreover, this sudden change in environment would naturally lead many red wizards on trips to discover the world around them. I wouldn't be surprised if the Thayans discovered Maztica before the natural residents of Abeir do (because Maztica won't advertise itself.... and Thayans at least know it existed in their old world). So, maybe there's this city surrounded by enemies in Faerun that transferred over.... the Thayans discover that Maztica still exists, and maybe they either build a portal to Maztica OR had one pre-existing and since Maztica came over its the only destination still working.
So, they go over and subjugate the ruling populace? However, not like the English did with killing the indigenous population. They show their magic, teach some basic metallurgical skills, medicine, etc... and help fight off incursions of Abeiran invaders. They set it up that the Mulans are to be the ruling race (though not by decree but rather who gets taught) and the resident populations of Maztica become more capable of conquering their neighbors. Worship of the Maztican patheon becomes accepted amongst the somewhat religiously indifferent Thayans.
Hell, to add a little bit more weirdness.... what if this Thayan enclave somehow had some Lantanese with them and so they've got not only magic.... but a passing mechanical knowledge as well. Also, what about the Amnish populations already in Maztica... maybe they setup swelling trade between different portions of Maztica.
I know it sounds a little bit too much like America's founding, and therefore I'd like to hear some ideas to make it different. I'm thinking that the fact that the indigenous population is still the most common and isn't being killed off is a big difference. This could also be a fairly big shock for Szass Tam when they return home. This also presents an interesting way to suddenly present a new group of Zulkirs.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2013 : 14:46:38
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Sounds good to me. But the question is, what's stopping Szass Tam from preventing them from forming a new country that would one day be a serious threat to Thay? If you recall, Szass Tam didn't pursue the zulkirs in Wizards' Reach because the place was virtually devoid of resources that could support an army large enough to challenge him. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2013 : 15:06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Sounds good to me. But the question is, what's stopping Szass Tam from preventing them from forming a new country that would one day be a serious threat to Thay? If you recall, Szass Tam didn't pursue the zulkirs in Wizards' Reach because the place was virtually devoid of resources that could support an army large enough to challenge him.
Because Szass Tam for all his power is still one being (that would be the answer for the Tharchions forming in the Shaar). For the Tharchions in Maztica, the answer is much easier.... Maztica isn't in the same world as Tam when its forming. Maztica pops back into the world and there's this burgeoning Thayan government already in place having been built over the last 100+ years. Given the Thayan knowledge of agriculture, they may have seen a huge population growth as well given that Maztica wasn't hugely populate as yet (it was by definition points of light prior to going to Abeir). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2013 : 15:18:50
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When I said Szass Tam, I didn’t just mean the lich Szass Tam. I meant the whole Thay—since his hold over the realm is absolute. Besides, who in their right minds will dare defy him even if he sends them to their deaths—which of course, he wouldn’t needlessly do anyway.
Szass Tam wouldn’t have cared about the Red Wizards outside Thay getting on with their lives. But if such getting on involves erecting a country from scratch that has the potential to be great, then that’s another story. Even if the loose Red Wizards tell him they have no plan of retaking Thay from him, it’s unlikely he would believe them. Most, if not all, always consider Thay to be their home; it’s part of who they are. It’s not so easy to let go of it and leave it to the hands of a selfish tyrant, especially when you have successfully amassed sufficient resources and gathered enough army. So one way or another, Szass Tam will have this dream crushed, either by himself or by some of the necromancers beholden to him. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2511 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2013 : 20:22:39
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If you want a Maztican campaign... Just the Thayans?.. I don't know, half of the fun in FR is in the inevitable unholy cluster-fluffle, right? 
Helmites, yes, and of course after their stunts Oghma's clergy just have to jump in, right? And there got to be adventurers treating the continent as the new Border Kingdoms.
Maybe it could get funnier - when e.g. drow traders will catch the wind of Maztican development (new goods, Amnian contacts, Jaguar Knight mercenaries, underground invasion of stingers), some of their restless and/or ambitious magelings may be interested in learning Hishna and want to form an exploration party. 
If that's not crazy enough - maybe, a few wandering (and therefore curious) Avariel willing to learn Pluma?
To think of it... drow not feeling obligated to be warlike (such as merchants, "But-I-have-seen-weirder-at-home" Sshammathans, etc - by the way, Sshammathans are unlikely to respect Red Wizards too much) would at worst see winged ones as "better than surface elves", and at best know that during Crown Wars they were still "out cold", so there's no formal enmity. Could as well try to cooperate - they need any support they can get. As a bonus, accidentally seeing these working together is likely to drive most surface elves incoherent and frothing. 
Here you go, four cohesive factions and one deck of wild cards. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2013 : 22:17:14
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| Thayans could present themselves as saviors with their weather-control magic, in place of the sacrifices |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2013 : 23:48:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
When I said Szass Tam, I didn’t just mean the lich Szass Tam. I meant the whole Thay—since his hold over the realm is absolute. Besides, who in their right minds will dare defy him even if he sends them to their deaths—which of course, he wouldn’t needlessly do anyway.
Szass Tam wouldn’t have cared about the Red Wizards outside Thay getting on with their lives. But if such getting on involves erecting a country from scratch that has the potential to be great, then that’s another story. Even if the loose Red Wizards tell him they have no plan of retaking Thay from him, it’s unlikely he would believe them. Most, if not all, always consider Thay to be their home; it’s part of who they are. It’s not so easy to let go of it and leave it to the hands of a selfish tyrant, especially when you have successfully amassed sufficient resources and gathered enough army. So one way or another, Szass Tam will have this dream crushed, either by himself or by some of the necromancers beholden to him.
That's where you and I are simply going to have to disagree. I'm just as much in love with Thay as you seem to be, but we definitely have a disagreement over Tam's personal power. His rebellion and overthrow was a surprise for the other Zulkirs, probably because he had an item changing his personality, and it worked pretty much because he had forces in place for the most part. His control outside of Thay is about as limited as any other archmage.... and we would be talking about a consortium of other archmages forming any kind of United Tharchion state/government.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2013 : 23:59:24
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
If you want a Maztican campaign... Just the Thayans?.. I don't know, half of the fun in FR is in the inevitable unholy cluster-fluffle, right?
Helmites, yes, and of course after their stunts Oghma's clergy just have to jump in, right? And there got to be adventurers treating the continent as the new Border Kingdoms.
Maybe it could get funnier - when e.g. drow traders will catch the wind of Maztican development (new goods, Amnian contacts, Jaguar Knight mercenaries, underground invasion of stingers), some of their restless and/or ambitious magelings may be interested in learning Hishna and want to form an exploration party.
If that's not crazy enough - maybe, a few wandering (and therefore curious) Avariel willing to learn Pluma?
To think of it... drow not feeling obligated to be warlike (such as merchants, "But-I-have-seen-weirder-at-home" Sshammathans, etc - by the way, Sshammathans are unlikely to respect Red Wizards too much) would at worst see winged ones as "better than surface elves", and at best know that during Crown Wars they were still "out cold", so there's no formal enmity. Could as well try to cooperate - they need any support they can get. As a bonus, accidentally seeing these working together is likely to drive most surface elves incoherent and frothing.
Here you go, four cohesive factions and one deck of wild cards.
Yeah, you've got the idea. Basically, small parts of Faerun transferred to Abeir... but also this huge continent of Maztica went away too. The people of Abeir wouldn't know about it, but those small parts of Faerun might. If some of those factions went over figuring it was "land ripe for the picking and safer than back home", how might they have transformed Maztica. The more I think about it the more I like the idea of Thayans from displaced enclaves and Lantanese actually joining up together in somewhat desperation. The Lantanese help to "build" the new infrastructure, while the wizards help to do the quick and heavy lifting (i.e. they need a stone wall, but it only needs to be there a month..... summon it then build your other structure).
Now, they don't have to tame all of Maztica. Hell, it could be that they only tame a portion that's maybe relative in size to what old Thay was, and the majority of the population may be natives.
Also, another thing might be that this new nation is able to "discover" technological secrets that work in Abeir, but lo and behold when the sundering happens and they return to Toril.... they find out those same technological secrets fail. This could cause some kind of cataclysmic failure in their society. Not sure what the technological secret could be, but the idea of them using steam technology comes to mind and maybe in Abeir there are "hot stones" or some such. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 12:06:13
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
When I said Szass Tam, I didn’t just mean the lich Szass Tam. I meant the whole Thay—since his hold over the realm is absolute. Besides, who in their right minds will dare defy him even if he sends them to their deaths—which of course, he wouldn’t needlessly do anyway.
Szass Tam wouldn’t have cared about the Red Wizards outside Thay getting on with their lives. But if such getting on involves erecting a country from scratch that has the potential to be great, then that’s another story. Even if the loose Red Wizards tell him they have no plan of retaking Thay from him, it’s unlikely he would believe them. Most, if not all, always consider Thay to be their home; it’s part of who they are. It’s not so easy to let go of it and leave it to the hands of a selfish tyrant, especially when you have successfully amassed sufficient resources and gathered enough army. So one way or another, Szass Tam will have this dream crushed, either by himself or by some of the necromancers beholden to him.
That's where you and I are simply going to have to disagree. I'm just as much in love with Thay as you seem to be, but we definitely have a disagreement over Tam's personal power. His rebellion and overthrow was a surprise for the other Zulkirs, probably because he had an item changing his personality, and it worked pretty much because he had forces in place for the most part. His control outside of Thay is about as limited as any other archmage . . . and we would be talking about a consortium of other archmages forming any kind of United Tharchion state/government.
Remind me again how, towards the end of Unholy, he defeated all the zulkirs despite the fact that the temporary power boost he got from Bane had already expired?
It's one thing if you're just one archmage trying to prevent your ex-peers from forming a government in a faraway land, and another if you are an archmage who owns and controls a country with enough resources to field armies that could quash thousands. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 13:10:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
When I said Szass Tam, I didn’t just mean the lich Szass Tam. I meant the whole Thay—since his hold over the realm is absolute. Besides, who in their right minds will dare defy him even if he sends them to their deaths—which of course, he wouldn’t needlessly do anyway.
Szass Tam wouldn’t have cared about the Red Wizards outside Thay getting on with their lives. But if such getting on involves erecting a country from scratch that has the potential to be great, then that’s another story. Even if the loose Red Wizards tell him they have no plan of retaking Thay from him, it’s unlikely he would believe them. Most, if not all, always consider Thay to be their home; it’s part of who they are. It’s not so easy to let go of it and leave it to the hands of a selfish tyrant, especially when you have successfully amassed sufficient resources and gathered enough army. So one way or another, Szass Tam will have this dream crushed, either by himself or by some of the necromancers beholden to him.
That's where you and I are simply going to have to disagree. I'm just as much in love with Thay as you seem to be, but we definitely have a disagreement over Tam's personal power. His rebellion and overthrow was a surprise for the other Zulkirs, probably because he had an item changing his personality, and it worked pretty much because he had forces in place for the most part. His control outside of Thay is about as limited as any other archmage . . . and we would be talking about a consortium of other archmages forming any kind of United Tharchion state/government.
Remind me again how, towards the end of Unholy, he defeated all the zulkirs despite the fact that the temporary power boost he got from Bane had already expired?
It's one thing if you're just one archmage trying to prevent your ex-peers from forming a government in a faraway land, and another if you are an archmage who owns and controls a country with enough resources to field armies that could quash thousands.
He was in "home controlled terrain" that he'd been specially prepping for years.
As to fielding armies.... yep, he probably could field armies to go and physically invade countries right next to him. Maztica's a continent away.
Finally, who says he'd even know. First off, he'd have to hear about them, and given that Tam (even with all his power) didn't know that Maztica existed until other Faerunian forces discovered it. Also given that if the Sundering brings it back, why would he suspect a 100 year old Tharchion based government to be there? If he starts scrying, nothing says he'll hit on the section that's been tamed (and even if they've tamed a section of land the same size as Thay or even 3 times as big, that's a pittance compared to the entire size of Maztica). The people that returned will have spent between 5-8 generations in another world, so their knowledge of Faerun will all be in the form of stories told by their parents (except for the few individuals who lengthened their lifespans from pre-spellplague). Hell, they may not even give a damn about the old country of Thay anymore than Halruaans are constantly trying to reform Netheril. In fact, the wizards ruling may have not only come from Thayan stock, but they may have also attracted Halruaan and Nimbrali stock as well (as well as possibly Chessentan and Untheric stock as well, though I assume that Mulhorand, Chessenta, and Unther formed some common government in Abeir with the Egyptian gods in place). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 13:17:56
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As to fielding armies . . . yep, he probably could field armies to go and physically invade countries right next to him. Maztica's a continent away.
I could be wrong. Szass Tam might not want anything to do with the Maztica affair even if he somehow learns of it. He’s always been too busy erecting Dread Rings these days.
On the other hand, he might see the potential of this “untamed Maztica” fit for this very purpose. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2511 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 16:21:01
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, you've got the idea. Basically, small parts of Faerun transferred to Abeir... but also this huge continent of Maztica went away too.
Aye. I didn't get the part where everyone involved just sat on their buttocks and politely wait until Tor will smash into Ill, though. 
1361 - Amn discovers Maztica.
1365 - Stinger invasion into Old Shanatar.
1369 - Some sea-monster troubles slow down the trade (already up and running, obviously), but also reclamation of Tethyr opens more possibilities to circumvent Amnians, and this will stick for longer. Amnians want to be a bottleneck annd dislike wizards, after all, so it's an improvement. Also note that Amnites sail South-West, so merchants from Tethyr (and Calimshan) may be in a better position. Certainly are, if the half-way stop is Lantan. Also, the Jaguar Guard company's base is in Myratma.
1370 - Amn is pestered by ogre-mages.
So when 3e FR campaign book says that mercenary campaigns are jostling each other, Amnians and natives ten years after discovery - this means a mess of exactly this sort already boiled in 1371 DR. And since Thayans aren't quite deaf and blind, that's about when they should start reacting too, give or take a year. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 19:12:15
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, you've got the idea. Basically, small parts of Faerun transferred to Abeir... but also this huge continent of Maztica went away too.
Aye. I didn't get the part where everyone involved just sat on their buttocks and politely wait until Tor will smash into Ill, though.
1361 - Amn discovers Maztica.
1365 - Stinger invasion into Old Shanatar.
1369 - Some sea-monster troubles slow down the trade (already up and running, obviously), but also reclamation of Tethyr opens more possibilities to circumvent Amnians, and this will stick for longer. Amnians want to be a bottleneck annd dislike wizards, after all, so it's an improvement. Also note that Amnites sail South-West, so merchants from Tethyr (and Calimshan) may be in a better position. Certainly are, if the half-way stop is Lantan. Also, the Jaguar Guard company's base is in Myratma.
1370 - Amn is pestered by ogre-mages.
So when 3e FR campaign book says that mercenary campaigns are jostling each other, Amnians and natives ten years after discovery - this means a mess of exactly this sort already boiled in 1371 DR. And since Thayans aren't quite deaf and blind, that's about when they should start reacting too, give or take a year.
My premise is that the Thayans didn't care about the territory much before the spellplague... it was way on the other side of the world. They were just happy to be chipping away making enclaves. Then the civil war broke out in their own country. The enclaves during this period were probably becoming "rest areas" for Thayan soldiers and wizards to get away from the front line. I imagine the populations in the enclaves rose dramatically during the war. Then right in the middle of the war...... WHAM.... the spellplague hits and SOME of those enclaves are transferred to Abeir. The Thayans in those Enclaves don't know WHAT is going on or what happened to their homeland (much less the rest of the world). They're just all of a sudden in another world, and one that's not exactly friendly to them. Their homeland is gone. That's when one of them finds out that Maztica transferred (maybe they were "cycling" through their portal for anywhere still working, and they had a portal to somewhere in Maztica where maybe they'd opened an enclave in the wilds secretly to work against the Amnians) and they're like "hey, its safer than here, let's go there". When they decide to leave, maybe they reveal the path to the city that their enclave worked with and they bring over the citizens of that city as well and promptly turn those people into 2nd class citizens in return for protection. That enclave then contacts maybe a few other enclaves, and eventually all the enclaves that were accidentally ported over to Abeir are suddenly in Maztica. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 19:49:12
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| By the way, this topic could also be used as a "if Maztica were to be brought back, how might it have changed in the last hundred years to make players more interested in it?" topic. Making it simply a mirror of the settlement of America I know didn't set well with people. I imagine that some denizens of Abeir may have come over as well and their efforts also might have caused some problems. For instance, maybe the serpent worshipping tribes actually began adulating dragonborn/dragons. Maybe there were some of the original creator races in Abeir and they descended on Maztica. Maybe the scorpion men and other "tauric" races began forming their own society? Maybe a nation of gnolls/flinds rose up? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 21:21:07
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I kept thinking about this while cooking dinner. I had always liked the idea of a tauric society, and I'd sort of discussed it in this forum entry, with an idea that maybe Miellikki (or some other nature deity) transformed certain beings into tauric hybrid animals to which they had a strong empathy. These beings were all mammalians. Topic is here
http://forum.candlekeep.com/post.asp?method=Reply&TOPIC_ID=16378&FORUM_ID=19
Anyway, maybe that actually happened in Maztica. Maybe the few humans that the Faerunians have run across are the barbarians of the continent. Taking a little from the Thundercats idea, maybe there's a bunch of humanoid and tauric animal races in Maztica. For instance, maybe there's the minotaurs.... but maybe there's also the bullmen whose tops are hairy humanoids with horns and bull/cow bottoms. Maybe there's many hued catmen who ride ferocious wemics into battle. Maybe there's wolf-like gnolls who ride wargs or dire wolves. Maybe there's orcs with boar bodies (boarcs). Maybe there's the hybsils and bariaurs and centaurs all living amongsts one another (bariaurs in the hills, hybsils in the woods, centaurs in the plains). Maybe there's rat-men and mice people and the two don't like each other. Then throw in some avian races.
Now, throw in the lycanthropy has never existed in this part of the world, and the humans bring it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2013 : 13:42:22
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| Taurics are better suited for the Horde. Not to diss your idea, Maztica has a different theme, Indians have never seen a horse. |
z455t |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2013 : 18:18:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Taurics are better suited for the Horde. Not to diss your idea, Maztica has a different theme, Indians have never seen a horse.
Even if dismissing centaurs, it could still work. Creatures like hybsil with deer bottoms would fit in well. A variation of wemic that instead of being leonine was instead pantherish, tigerish, etc.... or hell just having humanoid cat people. The main thing I was thinking about is maybe humans are barbaric on this continent and there are other animalistic races who have achieved more success. The Amnian's just never ran across them. The humans might be the equivalent of orcs there and other similar lifespanned creatures hold the majority of the continent.
Main thing is the continent of Maztica/Anchorome saw little exploration that I know of. The Maztica boxed set focused on the small subset called Maztica and even left large sections of it unexplored. Even more interesting to me, there were some sections that had very primitive humans that were called "the dog people" and "the green folk". I don't think many people would be upset if the Easterners that were chronicling these sections got it wrong and maybe the dog people are some kind of literally gnoll'ish type beings. There's also some history that the gods tried to make man from wood in Maztica, so maybe the green folk are some kind of plant people. Then there's whole sections unexplored at all where these humanoid animal and/or tauric animal cultures could be explored |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2013 : 01:56:13
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In the Maztica setting material, I distinctly remember reading that there is a tower (or a keep, not sure) that looks extremely out of place considering the architecture and environment. In fact, it had Wizard residents in it, a profession unknown and nonexistant to the residents of Maztica.
It never went into detail how or why it was there, but my guess is it belongs to a group of Red Wizards that discovered, built, and settled there and most likely has a portal between there and back home. I once had a player make a Maztican halfling character that was brought over to Thay as a slave via the recent discovery of the land and a few Thayan slavers managed to get a hold of him along with other Maztican halflings. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 01:17:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
In the Maztica setting material, I distinctly remember reading that there is a tower (or a keep, not sure) that looks extremely out of place considering the architecture and environment. In fact, it had Wizard residents in it, a profession unknown and nonexistant to the residents of Maztica.
It never went into detail how or why it was there, but my guess is it belongs to a group of Red Wizards that discovered, built, and settled there and most likely has a portal between there and back home. I once had a player make a Maztican halfling character that was brought over to Thay as a slave via the recent discovery of the land and a few Thayan slavers managed to get a hold of him along with other Maztican halflings.
Really? Now that's interesting. I had read the novels surrounding Maztica, but I never bought the boxed set because like many at the time I found the novels too much like a history book of early America. Only thinking on this idea of how to bring back Maztica 100 years later and turn it into something people would want has gotten me looking at a copy of it and comparing it to the world maps, etc... we have. I like that there's some seeds there that fit in with the concept I'm throwing out. Thanks.
BTW, I note that Maztica went away and we got "Returned Abeir", but do we have anywhere a world map that shows where Returned Abeir is in relation to Faerun, Maztica, and Anchorome (i.e. was it in the same place as Maztica)? Also, just because I've never compared Returned Abeir and Faerun size wise.... how much of a size difference are we talking? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 04:32:57
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| It replaced the location of Maztica and Anchorome I think. Mostly Maztica. But, apparently, Maztica is coming back in D&D Next aka 5th Edition so who knows. Maybe they'll actually, and finally, start to branch away from overdone Faerun (and, yet, some parts of Faerun still have yet to be touched) |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2511 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 12:33:07
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
My premise is that the Thayans didn't care about the territory much before the spellplague...
Uh, lol?
quote:
it was way on the other side of the world. They were just happy to be chipping away making enclaves.
As to remoteness, enclaves typically are gate-linked anyway.
The first enclave is what, 1344 DR? That's good. Researchers party gradually won and shifted political focus from military to economy in 1368-1371. More or less when everyone else took interest in Maztica. But stopping conquests on Fawrun works both ways - there are always some aggressive young wizards who want to carve some territory - preferrably where they aren't likely to run into the Simbul - and someone viewing this sort as potentially useful.
At this time - give or take a few years, there's no precise date - Red Wizards had Quad ships with their own unique phase helm / power ram spelljamming system. Which aside of demonstrating just how far their interests spread, may help with colonization on Toril - both by redefining "line of sight" for early exploration purpose and solving transportation problems until a colony is either quite self-reliant or on the portal network.
Aside of mostly-wild territory full of poisonous snakes and more dangerous natives, a colony far away means new resources. For a Red Wizard with enough of juice to actually organize anything, remote location is less of a big deal, and more of an advantage in having a personal sandbox away from the others, where he will be a big fish in small pond rather than zulkir's errand boy.
But going with this further - if one can be self-reliant in a colony, why retain contact with the homeland that tend to be more of a liability and not go for full independence? All the above was about "loyal" Thayans, but there was already an "unofficial enclave" of disguised Red Wizards in Ravens Bluff, for one. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 12:33:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
It replaced the location of Maztica and Anchorome I think. Mostly Maztica. But, apparently, Maztica is coming back in D&D Next aka 5th Edition so who knows. Maybe they'll actually, and finally, start to branch away from overdone Faerun (and, yet, some parts of Faerun still have yet to be touched)
See that's why I'm wondering.... Maztica/Anchorome was a huge land mass, whereas Returned Abeir didn't seem all that big to me from what I saw of it. It very well could be that the 3 don't overlap at all and simple water transferred from one side to the other as well and we're all going "one had to replace the other" and its really water replaced Maztica in the realms, water replaced "Returned Abeir" in Abeir. Hell, that extra water might explain why certain areas of the realms are now under water. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 12:53:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As to fielding armies . . . yep, he probably could field armies to go and physically invade countries right next to him. Maztica's a continent away.
I could be wrong. Szass Tam might not want anything to do with the Maztica affair even if he somehow learns of it. He’s always been too busy erecting Dread Rings these days.
On the other hand, he might see the potential of this “untamed Maztica” fit for this very purpose.
Actually sorry I missed this the other day. Yeah, I was thinking something similar, that if he DID still want to pursue the dread ring thing that this place might be a good place for him to go (and it brings up a good way to put the "new" United Tharchions in conflict with old Thay if one wanted it). In fact, if his dread rings were to possibly start being setup using the temple grounds where so many human hearts were ripped out... could be a decent story. Of course, this new Mulan government may also have already setup shop in those..... they may be encouraging enslaving the neighbors, sacrificing their hearts, and then turning the bodies into undead that till the fields, make pretty gardens, etc.....
On THAT idea, if the eminence of Araunt is still around, it might be that they don't like this "United Tharchions of Maztica" idea either because of the unfair enslavement of all these undead. That could pose some interesting conflicts as well.
Main thing as I'm seeing it, all these ideas would make a returned Maztica definitely a place of interest rather than that place we were all ashamed to say we read about.
Oh, and on the animal kingdom ideas I'd also put forth, maybe this United Tharchions group had also started experimenting with transmutations.... specifically with making taurics, but definitely not "mammalian" taurics. Maybe they see the scorpion men and start making similar atrocities of nature with reptile/insect/elemental/aberration bottoms (a gelatinous cube with a human torso for instance ), and these animal people get all mad about it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 13:12:14
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I'm not certain if Sarshethrian's deathways extend to as far as Maztica. But maybe they do, and the reborn Eminence can still use those passageways to free as many enslaved undead in Maztica as they can. Not that it would be easy, considering they would be fighting two opposing factions with formidable armies of their own. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 13:21:14
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| Hmmm, the idea of that gelatinous cube with a human torso stuck with me while cooking. Maybe they start making similar types of beings that can take in waste byproducts and turn it into fertilizer, such that their fields are nutrient rich. They may make this fertilizer from the dead bodies flesh from all the sacrifices. They put a thinking torso on it so they could give commands to the creatures to make them move about, and they've actually incorporated some of these into the military now. Just a thought. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 13:29:17
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I notice that you always come up with some weird but interesting ideas whenever you cook. I should probably embrace the art of cooking myself. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 14:17:24
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| Hmmm, while I saw using dread necromancers in Thay (along with warmages as another charisma based casting class that fit better than bard), I can definitely see this culture embracing dread necromancers. Thus, this Thay wouldn't be strictly for the scholarly caster, but also those who wield power by force of will/personality. I can also see Hishna magic theories being incorporated into the colleges of transmutation and necromancy. Kind of like Hollowfaust from Scarred Lands, I can see them embracing the use of undead that have to be led and that are clean so as not to spread disease amongst the populace. Other types of undead (ghouls, vampires, etc...) would be discouraged if not actively hunted. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 15:21:55
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While I love necromancy, I still prefer that all eight schools of magic exist and are headed by competent zulkirs. The United Tharachions can have that, and even have a powerful necromancer in their ranks, who would be a very valuable ally in understanding the strengths and weaknesses of Szass Tam's undead army. As to where to find such a necromancer, I dunno. Maybe pray to Velsharoon that he grants them that? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1253 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2016 : 04:46:33
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All this talk of Szass Tam has me wanting to become a necromancer myself...boom, thread necromancy done!
Whatever became of this idea? I missed it completely somehow, just read through the whole post and realized there is some awesome potential in here.
There is a lot of talk on on the Piazza forums of starting a fan magazine for the Maztica setting (with a working title of Macuahuitl) and this would make a great article.
If there is interest in bringing it back up, I guess the idea needs to be brought up to date a little bit.
1. What is Tam and the Red Wizards really up to at the moment.
2. Why would they currently be interested in MAztica.
3. How do you include their shenanigans, but still maintain the unique flavor of Maztica.
4. What would be unique and interesting about the Red Wizards in Maztica?
5. How would the locals get involved?
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Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2016 : 13:41:13
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I haven't personally done anything with it, but feel free to take up the idea and use it. We now have a somewhat better idea of what happened post sundering. We also know that the Thayan civil war caused some Thayans to flee to extraneous enclaves, and those enclaves may have cut ties with Thay if they held Thayan rebels. We know that Unther transferred over. We know that Messemprar (Unther's Capital) held an enclave of Thayans. Right there you have an idea of where these Thayans may have come from. These red wizards may have searched out any other large populations of transferred lands and discovered Maztica. Hell, they may have even setup a portal between these two parts of the world (and for all we know they may have had an enclave near Fort Flame as well). Some of the Zulkirs may have even been here (I know they all supposedly died, but realistically, we all know they'd have contingencies, etc... in play... its hard to kill an archmage).
I don't see Tam involved in this culture. The main idea is that this group formed while Maztica was in Abeir. Honestly, he may not even know about it. That being said... IF there were already an enclave near Fort Flame and it still existed, when Maztica transfers back, it may start working and reconnect to other enclaves.... for instance in ruined Cimbar and drowned Soorenar.
One of the other things I've been playing with in my head was the United Tharchs of the Shaar forming up right now, as I'm betting there will be a land rush in certain areas. In that, I had the idea of combining multiple different groups though (High Imaskari, Thayan exiles, Halruaans leaving from returned Halruaa)..... and actually it might work well with a power base established already in Maztica. Maztica has a lot of wood, and that's a resource that would definitely be needed if they were to establish a beachhead in the Shaar. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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United Tharchions of.... Maztica?
