| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1076 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 09:09:55
|
Poll Question:
Good morning dear Scribes of Candlekeep.. could I have a moment with you.. Please vote and comments. Need solid comments for this research.
Yours..
Victor Ograygor
Need you opinion on what level this spell should be when I am done Researching it.
Summon Troll
Conjuration (Summoning) [see text]
Level:
Sor/Wiz?
Components:
V, S, F/DF
Casting Time:
1 round
Range:
Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect:
One summoned Troll
Duration:
1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw:
None
Spell Resistance:
No
As summon monster, except called creatures do not disappear at the end of the spell's duration.(Just like "Halaster's Fetch")
However, they become free-willed and outside the control of the caller after the spell expires.
(As summon monster, except called creatures do not disappear at the end of the spell's duration)
Troll
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm
To compare
Halaster's Fetch 1 (Level 4 Spell)
As summon monster 1, except called creatures do not disappear at the end of the spell's duration
Halaster's Fetch 2(Level 5 Spell)
As summon monster 2, except called creatures do not disappear at the end of the spell's duration
Halaster's Fetch 3 (Level 6 Spell)
As summon monster 3, except called creatures do not disappear at the end of the spell's duration
Halaster's Fetch 4 (Level 7 Spell)
As summon monster 4, except called creatures do not disappear at the end of the spell's duration
Halaster's Fetch 5 (Level 8 Spell)
As summon monster 5, except called creatures do not disappear at the end of the spell's duration
|
|
Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master
Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.
Links related to Forgotten Realms
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9571
Adventuring / Mercenary Companies / Orders / The chosen from official sources
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11047
Priests in Forgotten Realms.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9609&whichpage=1 |
Edited by - Victor_ograygor on 16 Mar 2013 14:10:05
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4447 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 13:18:18
|
I think it's a solid 5th level spell. My choice was mostly due to other options such as those on the Summon Monster V list. Some of which are CR 5 (Achaierai, Bearded Devil, Shadow Mastiff).
Additionally, I think the fact that it has the opportunity to become free-willed is a set-back and thus, keepin the power of the spell lower than perhaps 6th level.
I'd also point out that many such creaters don't stand long when facing monsters of appropriate PC level. So if it's a 5th level spell then the PCs are approx. 9th to 10th level in power and thus are fighting (generally speakin) monsters in the CR 8th to 13th range. Trolls just don't have the stats to be making any sort of contact with many CR-appropriate monster AC.
Cool spell idea though, well done. |
 |
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2433 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 14:08:06
|
I think in a general case, a specific monster summoning spell should be 1 level below the lowest non-specific equivalent that can get the same monster on the same conditions. It also must have a component/focus directly related to the monster in question.
But in the case of trolls... heh... good luck with the latter.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 14:14:39
|
If it is a simple summoning/control spell its 4th. Limited to single monster type. Also, there should be a range within which the monster must be or else the spell fails (like the "call" spells). If the range is unlimited then it becomes higher level, I'd say 6 or 7, as it is a specialized form of teleportation like the 9th level mage gate spell. You also should define the HD the spell can summon based on the caster; a 10th level caster can summon 1 troll, a 15 2, etc. or something along those lines.
If you're thinking its a conjuration, or a creation of something not there before, then in old D&D there was a spell "Create Magical Monster." This was an 8th level spell that could create a troll where none existed before - magical because of regeneration, btw.
I still use the spells from old D&D, though most haven't in forever - they were created outside of some of the rules that most limit spellcasters, imo. More spells are permanent, and there were a whole array of creation spells like the one I mentioned. |
|
|
|
Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1076 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 14:22:59
|
Its As a summon monster spell, except called creatures do not disappear at the end of the spells duration. the channing rating would say its a 5 level spell and because it doesn't disappear at the end of the spell duration it becomes one level higher - 6 level. bad/ its Free willed - good its still there..
Halaster's Fetch 5 (Level 8 Spell) functions as a 5 level summon monster spell with the same duration and ending effect (free will) but there are many monsters to chose from.. ahh maybe its a higher level spell ?  |
Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master
Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.
Links related to Forgotten Realms
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9571
Adventuring / Mercenary Companies / Orders / The chosen from official sources
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11047
Priests in Forgotten Realms.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9609&whichpage=1 |
Edited by - Victor_ograygor on 16 Mar 2013 14:26:38 |
|
|
|
The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 14:29:48
|
| In that case I'd say base it off of a druid's call spells - just figure out HD to determine level. |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2013 : 22:34:51
|
| 5th or I'd even consider 4th level. Compare with Call Nightmare, or Call Zelekhut, tough both I think have expensive material components. |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2013 : 23:23:20
|
As long as it is Summon Monster and not simply conjuring the Troll out of thin air, I'd go with a 5th level spell.
Essentially, if it is to appear immediately, you are using your magic to steal a troll from somewhere...so as Teleport is a 5th level spell as well; I feel comfort in saying this level.
The mechanical reason is that you are essentially reverse teleporting. Since it is a specific TYPE of monster and not a specific monster (as an individual Tom the Troll); I would also judge that the spell has a chance of failing if no troll is within a certain range. As a simple example: you are in the middle of the ocean, you wouldn't get a troll perhaps.
I would love to see the face of some hapless adventurer who is the last of his party...all the trolls are dead but one, and the fella just knows he doesn't have the strength to fight and win...then POOF! The troll is gone!  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4690 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 00:03:09
|
Hmm, summon nature Ally III seems to be close, it call 6HD monster.
As teleport is a factor as creature remains and also charm monster in effect for 1 round per caster level. It clearly needs to be higher then level 3 spell. Maybe 5? |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11857 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 13:22:39
|
| troll is a CR 5 creature. Bearded devil is a CR 5 creature as part of summon monster V. Halaster's Fetch 5 is 8th lvl. I'd go with 8th lvl. The big thing to note here is that when the troll is killed... its dead... unlike a summoned monster. Summoned creatures like devils using summon monster won't mind their spell as much, because they can feel the equivalent of their silver cord tying them to their home plane, so they know its a chance to blow off steam by killing something. These trolls are very likely to turn on the being that summoned them, especially if they're now separated from their family, tribemates, or just that one troll that lets him use his naughty bits on her, etc.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2433 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 15:51:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
If you're thinking its a conjuration, or a creation of something not there before, then in old D&D there was a spell "Create Magical Monster." This was an 8th level spell that could create a troll where none existed before - magical because of regeneration, btw.
There was also "Murlynd's Ogre" (The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror) 4-level Conjuration+Illusion - though it wasn't an ogre proper and "Create Darkenbeast".
But if it's calling, well, there are known direct equivalents.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
As a simple example: you are in the middle of the ocean, you wouldn't get a troll perhaps.
You could get a Scrag instead?  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 19:06:04
|
| I bounced between level 7 and level 8, just based on the CR of a troll compared to other creatures on summon nature's ally IV & V. I think V has more CR 5 creatures than IV, comparable summon monster V in power, which then correlates to Halaster's fetch V, which is a level 8 spell. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
|
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11857 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 21:37:11
|
| btw, another reason I see this as being 8th lvl. Wizard summons troll. Wizard charms troll. Wizard sends troll into every room before he goes. Traps affect troll, but he regenerates damage. If troll dies.... wizard doesn't care. Not saying its a bad thing, just saying that a being that's easily mind controlled and regenerates shouldn't be all that easy to summon and replace. I used to do the same/similar with battle horrors, since they used to heal from magic missiles and could cast magic missile. So, I had several, and at the end of combat they'd just sit around and heal one another. Some mages/necromancers do it with undead (the dread necromancers touch makes this very easy). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2013 : 01:28:26
|
Based on nothing more than summon troll spell name, I would think W4 ... although I'd expect a duration of about "1 turn/level" or maybe "24 hours" or whatnot, so my opinion is that "1 round/level" should maybe knock it down to W3. Definitely not as powerful as W5 conjure elemental - and let's face it - not really much better (in terms of overall hit dice) than a monster summoning I. I think a mildly troublesome spell component (requires a piece of pickled troll flesh) could limit abuse by low-level magelings.
All based on my AD&D 2E sensibilities, of course. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2013 : 13:34:59
|
| Female trolls +1 level cause they're tougher |
z455t |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
What level should this spell be?
