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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 12:53:18
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A quick question concerning Larloch...does anyone know what the "Larloch issue" mentioned by El at the end of Elminster Ascended is referring to? My speculation is that, in the absence of Mystra, he has started to overstep his bounds as regards whatever agreement they had. But what is the nature of that agreement exactly?
Now to the main reason for my post. I'm seriously considering reviving Karsus in my campaign. I haven't yet decided how this will happen as I am still unsure whether I will go forward with it. What I want to do is bring him back as a servant of Mystra who is truly repentant for his folly and seeks to make amends to the world. My reasons are outlined below...please feel free to correct any lore that Im wrong about and otherwise blow holes in my logic. What I need is some good feedback as to the merits of my idea. This will be a pre-4e/Spellplague campaign.
1. As I recall, Karsus has been trapped and reliving the moment of his folly over and over for centuries. This is one of the reasons why I see him as repentant and wanting to make amends.
2. Since his main reason for casting the Karsus' Avatar spell was to save Netherese society, I also see this as a reason for wanting to make amends (guilt over destroying his people and all that).
3. Having momentarily felt true divinity and having an understanding of what it means to be the deity of magic, he now sees it as his duty to serve Mystra (thus overcoming, at least in part, his culture's disdain for the gods).
Issues I see Karsus having...
1. I read (though I no longer own) the books on Karsus and his contemporaries...Karsus was a couple of cards short of a full deck. He should struggle with this should he be revived.
2. Speaking of madness, being trapped and reliving your horrible failure for a few centuries would be enough to drive most anyone moonbat-crazy.
3. His hubris should be a real struggle for him to overcome as well. I see him trying to 'fix' things using methods that go too far for Mystra's tastes.
So, what are your thoughts on this? What I want is a multi-dimensional NPC who struggles with his 'inner demons' while trying hard to do the right thing (as he sees it, but with Mystra's guidance).
Let the debate begin.
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I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 15:13:25
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Check out the "Karsus, Hubris in the Blood" vestige entry in Tome of Magic. He's been a vestige now, trapped in the place where vestiges are (whether that's the far realm or somewhere else is unclear). According to that entry, he's far from repentant. If you were to want to include Karsus in your game, I'd recommend doing it by having his vestige working through intermediaries in the world. Also note from the same book that there are humans randomly born who are Karsites, beings who are particularly resistant against magic. I'd imagine that these Karsites are more common down in Halruaa, since they actually come from Karsus' bloodline and that's where many Netherese fled. In fact, the magic-resistant jordain may have first started with Karsite's born amongst the Halruaan populace.
As to how to use him, again, I'd recommend doing it through binders binding him. Perhaps during his brief moments experiencing the world again he attempts to gather enough information to gain his freedom. In fact, one of the things I've posited is that Velsharoon was in life a binder/anima mage (his main focus on wizardry, but he dabbled in binding vestiges, and he actually was able to bind Thayd and Mellifleur). As a result, my view is that Velsharoon's worshippers was one of the few religions that openly invited binders into their ranks and encouraged the study of anima mages (in addition to dread necromancers, wizard necromancers, and of course clerics who favor necromancy). The tenebrous apostate prestige class can easily be modeled for Velsharoon as well, with Mellifleur being a vestige with the powers of Acererak, such that there may be some binder/priests within the church of Velsharoon. The followers of Velsharoon might bind not only Mellifleur/Acererak, but also tenebrous as well. Anyway, while Velsharoon didn't bind Karsus during life much (the fact that he won't allow himself to be bound on anyone with an active spell was the issue), he may encourage his binder followers to do so in hopes of recovering lost lore from Karsus. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 16:40:59
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Good point, but ToM is optional material as opposed to canon. However, I could use the the binder angle to facilitate his re-entrance into the world (as you suggest). His apparent lack of repentance could simply be an example of how he is willing to go farther than he 'should' to gain his freedom. Although I have to say that his hubris, as mentioned in ToM, most likely is real (as I suggested in my OP) and just serves as an example of the struggle against his innate nature.
I'm coming from the standpoint that Karsus wasn't evil (his canon write-up shows him as CN) and he was trying to do the 'right' thing when he cast Karsus' Tomfoolery spell (so there is a spark of goodness within him). But, the novels also noted that becoming one of his special friends was tantamount to a death sentence...so he is touched by darkness as well. This is what I mean by his recognizing that he needs to become a better person. Not necessarily a good person, just overcome his innate faults and use magic for constructive purposes (again, under Mystra's guidance).
I'm not saying that Karsus wouldn't be a royal pain in the backside, the Blackstaff (who still lives in my homebrew world) would get a multiverse of headaches just thinking about the guy, but he would try (and at times fail) in his endeavors to change. It may be that Mystra and her Chosen will have to direct his attention to worthwhile efforts that mitigate his impact on the world.
I do not yet know just where I want to go with him (if I use him at all). I've thought about Mystra herself orchestrating his release with his being required to accept her terms first. This would include a curtailing of his innate power (e.g. he needs permission to cast certain spells or to conduct research into certain areas, is essentially reduced in levels for a time, or perhaps is banned from certain activities altogether). She would then use him as needed. Which brings up another point. Exactly what does she need him to do? Perhaps she needs a sort of 'enforcer' to prevent or punish those who OVER-abuse their power (on a scale reaching his folly). Perhaps she needs an incredibly powerful wizard whom she can match against certain deities or their own special servants (assuming that her other servants are otherwise engaged).
Sheesh, now I have another area of concern. I kind of want to assume that he retained some of that divine energy. So what kind of special powers would he have? Some similar to the Chosen? The Magister? Totally (and perhaps radically) different? If memory serves, he was a lich before he died. Would his humanity be restored? (I think Mystra would certainly restore him to full life).
Decisions, decisions. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 19:18:38
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| Yeah, one of the things I've posited is that the few times Velsharoon bound Karsus was whenever he actually wanted to query the man about the spell he cast (though occasionally he did so for the increase on his save DC's). Similarly, I've posited that Mellifleur did not return to the heavens after the time of troubles, and Velsharoon actually discovered that Mellifleur was a vestige (my view being Mellifleur replaces Acererak in the realms). Just a few years later Orcus/Tenebrous happened... and Tenebrous also became a Vestige. Anyway, while he's stuck where he's stuck, he may be mad (kind of like Halaster was when stuck in Undermountain). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 02:38:48
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Was Karsus a lich when casting the Folly? I never knew. He clearly had lost some faculty of sanity after he had to control the weave for a few seconds.
Hmm, I think Karsus time as a vestige does allow him ample time to contemplate his actions, but I do not see this shadow of the man Karsus used to be as ready to act as a god. He didn't understand the implications of ascending, and I doubt his brief existance as a god brought him the understanding needed for that.
If Mystra invested some of her energy into him, he might be able to act as her servitor, but I think even the form of an 'angel of magic' or 'magister'-figure his mind would be too shattered to be of any help. Karsus' interaction with current day Toril would surely remind him of his old wounds far too often. He'd probably prefer to stay in Dweomerhart and research spells that combat the Phaerimm. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 04:16:21
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quote:
Was Karsus a lich when casting the Folly?
I could be remembering it wrong but as I remember it the phaerimm lifedrain magic had caused a problem with Karsus' life-sustaining magics and he was forced to resort to lichdom...but that may have been Iolaum. I just cant recall now.
I was thinking about this a bit today. Perhaps Karsus could be freed by someone hoping to use him (or place Karsus in his debt for giving him his freedom). Anyway, Karsus could be freed just as he is at the height of experiencing his folly causing him to unknowingly lash out and slay his rescuer (perhaps this could be Wulgreth, does he still exist?).
Karsus would then become a bit of a threat to the Realms in his madness, though when he is lucid he attempts to make amends. Mystra would approach him with an offer of help in return for his occasional service. I'm thinking that when he is lucid she would put him to some use, even if it is just magical research. When he begins to slip again she can place him into a deep slumber. From there she can have other servitors (such as shadowstaves, or perhaps wizards residing in Dweomerheart) enter his dreams to mitigate them so they aren't total nightmares. They would work with his subconscious in an attempt to heal his mental scars. His slumbering would be extensive though (one doesn't overuse a being as powerful as Karsus in any campaign).
The whole point of this idea is that he becomes the focus of a major campaign arc after his release. The PCs would have to stop some 'mad wizard' only to discover who he is (and get dirty pantaloons in the process). 
If anyone can recall the facts for me please chime in. Also, wasn't Wulgreth's phylactery tied into the Karsus stone and/or a pool of heavy magic? |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 05:51:07
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| I was thinking that possibly what is left of Karsus to restore Mystra (or would that be Mystryl)? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 07:42:37
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quote:
Euranna
I was thinking that possibly what is left of Karsus to restore Mystra (or would that be Mystryl)?
And I was thinking the exact reverse: whatever power is left of Mystra (a privileged and incompetent usurper) restores (is rightfully reclaimed by) Karsus Ascendant.
And yes, the Netheril text does mention Karsus becoming a lich in an offhanded and passing way, as if it were some mild prescription for a magical ailment. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 21 Feb 2013 08:12:28 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 15:07:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
quote:
Was Karsus a lich when casting the Folly?
I could be remembering it wrong but as I remember it the phaerimm lifedrain magic had caused a problem with Karsus' life-sustaining magics and he was forced to resort to lichdom...but that may have been Iolaum. I just cant recall now.
I was thinking about this a bit today. Perhaps Karsus could be freed by someone hoping to use him (or place Karsus in his debt for giving him his freedom). Anyway, Karsus could be freed just as he is at the height of experiencing his folly causing him to unknowingly lash out and slay his rescuer (perhaps this could be Wulgreth, does he still exist?).
Karsus would then become a bit of a threat to the Realms in his madness, though when he is lucid he attempts to make amends. Mystra would approach him with an offer of help in return for his occasional service. I'm thinking that when he is lucid she would put him to some use, even if it is just magical research. When he begins to slip again she can place him into a deep slumber. From there she can have other servitors (such as shadowstaves, or perhaps wizards residing in Dweomerheart) enter his dreams to mitigate them so they aren't total nightmares. They would work with his subconscious in an attempt to heal his mental scars. His slumbering would be extensive though (one doesn't overuse a being as powerful as Karsus in any campaign).
The whole point of this idea is that he becomes the focus of a major campaign arc after his release. The PCs would have to stop some 'mad wizard' only to discover who he is (and get dirty pantaloons in the process).
If anyone can recall the facts for me please chime in. Also, wasn't Wulgreth's phylactery tied into the Karsus stone and/or a pool of heavy magic?
Just another thought. I know that I already mentioned binders binding him. Another thought is warlocks making pacts with him (there are some pacts that can be made with the far realm... and if that's where the vestiges are...). Especially if they're warlock/wizards/eldritch theurges. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 15:14:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Euranna
I was thinking that possibly what is left of Karsus to restore Mystra (or would that be Mystryl)?
And I was thinking the exact reverse: whatever power is left of Mystra (a privileged and incompetent usurper) restores (is rightfully reclaimed by) Karsus Ascendant.
And yes, the Netheril text does mention Karsus becoming a lich in an offhanded and passing way, as if it were some mild prescription for a magical ailment.
Some of the lore surrounding Mystra's return has her absorbing "blueflame" magic through the Simbul running around and closing gates. Now, what we learned of "blueflame" magic in the other books was that it involved trapping a being's body and soul into an item (similar to a genie's bottle) through a ritual involving the sacrifice of 3 liches <or at least that's what I'm seeing on the web, I'd have to revisit the books>. So, obviously, "blueflame" magic items are not JUST these "store a person" magic items. Also, these gates MAY be openings to the far realms (I forget what the Simbul was fighting).... and maybe they're part of some attempt to bring forth Karsus by Larloch (or maybe some attempt by Larloch to absorb Karsus). They were both from Netheril. I fully admit this idea isn't fully formed, but perhaps there's something to it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 22:02:15
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I have another odd thought about Larloch and the blueflame items. We already know that Larloch and Mystra 1.0 (and possibly Mystryl) had an arrangement of some kind. We also know that Mystra 1.0 make arrangements for the events of the ToT and her death. Could the blueflame items possibly be a part of that?
I might be misunderstanding their arrangement. But I do get the feeling that Larloch has a positive regard for Mystra (perhaps not 2.0).
If this is the case, I can see Larloch also wanting to control the essence of Karsus that might remain, for various reasons. Partially because he might view Karsus as an idiot and unworthy of returning, also, it is power. Larloch did get the hell out of dodge before things hit the fan.  .
Just a couple of ponderings. I might be wrong. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2013 : 11:21:56
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| Yes this was said in the second Elminster book, that Mystra didn't stop Larloch from creating these because she could use them to her advantage |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2013 : 15:02:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Euranna
I have another odd thought about Larloch and the blueflame items. We already know that Larloch and Mystra 1.0 (and possibly Mystryl) had an arrangement of some kind. We also know that Mystra 1.0 make arrangements for the events of the ToT and her death. Could the blueflame items possibly be a part of that?
I might be misunderstanding their arrangement. But I do get the feeling that Larloch has a positive regard for Mystra (perhaps not 2.0).
If this is the case, I can see Larloch also wanting to control the essence of Karsus that might remain, for various reasons. Partially because he might view Karsus as an idiot and unworthy of returning, also, it is power. Larloch did get the hell out of dodge before things hit the fan. .
Just a couple of ponderings. I might be wrong.
Actually, that's a somewhat interesting idea that it might involve Mystra 1.0.... just how close was the place where she was destroyed by Helm compared to the cave where she was discovered? I know that there was already in one of the novels from years ago (not sure which one) some kind of reference to that Mystra still existing in some form as some kind of twisted elemental type form. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2013 : 20:55:36
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I don't know if Mystra 2.0 ever showed the kind of foresight that Mystra 1.0 showed. But, I can see Mystryl possible and Mystra 1.0 making such preparations. Especially if either of them understood somehow what Ao did with the ToT (or even before with the first Sundering). Yes,I know I could be reading way more into this. But I like the idea.
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Questions about Larloch and Karsus (oh my)
