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Tarloc
Acolyte
USA
37 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 04:24:13
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Anyone know the circumstances that led to the attack on zhentil keep by the Shadovar? and information on the attack itself and the aftermath?
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"hey, you just rolled two natural twenties!"
"is that a touchdown?" |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 04:49:35
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| As far as I know its not written anywhere. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 04:53:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarloc
Anyone know the circumstances that led to the attack on zhentil keep by the Shadovar? and information on the attack itself and the aftermath?
I wondered about this too.
Was sort of hoping Rich Baker's Blades of the Moonsea would touch on this, but I've never read them. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 04:58:49
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| So far as I know, we've never had any info on this. We don't know how they attacked or why they attacked. And even though Zhentil Keep had been mostly leveled and quickly rebuilt before, we have no explanation for why it didn't happen again. Oh, and we don't know if there was any Zhentish retribution -- pretty sure that's never been mentioned, either. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 05:22:56
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| I bet Azoun rolled over in his grave and thought "Why didn't *I* think of destroying Zhentil Keep!" |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 09:39:34
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Here's what I think happened. :) - Be warned my sense of humor about how Zhents have been dealt with of late will shine through a bit below. Also please ignore my spelling of names :P
After the Manshoon Wars started to die down a bit, Manshoon Prime left Candlekeep with his plans well researched plans, spent a few months with Larloch purchasing his support in his schemes with the locations of several Netherese artifacts (which he learned of from his beholder allies from Ooltul), and finally Master Of Mages Zauviir Of Sshamath. (This brings together as many as 3 clones from cloak & dagger, though there is no evidence they are not the same clone). From Sshamath Manshoon takes charge of the Western branch of the Zhentarim, using Alok Fairzind as his mouthpiece and brings together what remains of his old power structure (those Fzoul has not killed). This Manshoon, call him Manshoon West, knows his greatest enemies are Manshoon East (the one in Zhentil Keep kissing Fzoul's posterior), Fzoul, and Orgauth. Clearly, Zhentil Keep must be destroyed.
Semmemon and Ashemmi - the real ones, mind you... turns out the silly love struck Semmemon running around the wilderness really WAS a clone (as he worried about), as was Ashemmi - resume command of Darkhold and the western branch of the Zhentarim. They make a show of withdrawing their interests in Anauroch, and in a meeting with several princes of Shade comes to an agreement with them and makes it very clear they have no further connection with Zhentil Keep. The chief piece of this bargain is that Sememmon provides Shade with detailed information about the Triumvirate of Ooltul. Phaerimm are of course shade's sworn enemies, and a city of beholders beneath their feet controlled by them is a threat at least. This also cements Manshoon's alliances with several beholders who wish to destroy the triumvirate and free their city (and take power themselves of course).
Meanwhile, Manshoon west orchestrates Zhent attacks on Shade holdings in Anauroch through Lady Alicia, his former apprentice who is now "loyal" to Fzoul. Alicia is sure to include one or more of the Ooltul beholder allies of Fzoul/The Floating Temple in these attacks "to assure success". Really it is to plant the notion that the Phaerimm are using the Zhents of Zhentil keep as puppets to take control of the entire Moonsea. These attacks, and the spreading rumors that the Scepter of the Sorcerer kings has been reformed and is once again in Zhentil keep are all that Telemont needs order his armies into full gear - exactly what Manshoon wanted him to do, of course.
For the time being, Manshoon West lives and works in solitude, usually in what is either a large extra-dimensional space or a very small demi-plane. He considers the risk of encountering another surviving, hiding Manshoon too dangerous, and he is content to play puppet master. In my mind this demiplane is very much like Acererak's in the Return to the Tomb of Horrors adventure, only instead of a demilich you have a very alive Manshoon.
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Edited by - The Masked Mage on 20 Feb 2013 09:41:29 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 11:59:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarloc
Anyone know the circumstances that led to the attack on zhentil keep by the Shadovar? and information on the attack itself and the aftermath?
No particular details ever written, AFAIK. But likely it had something to do with a plethora of Zhents trying to establish permanent residence in Anauroch, which, as we all know, is largely a Shadovar territory. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 13:14:53
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
spent a few months with Larloch purchasing his support in his schemes with the locations of several Netherese artifacts (which he learned of from his beholder allies from Ooltul),
Why wouldn't Larloch just grab them from his mind? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 15:49:46
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Someone in charge didn't like the Zhents, so they snapped their fingers and the Zhents were gone. Had they not liked the Shades instead, the Zhents would have clobbered them just as easily.
There is no logic to any of this - its just a small bunch of guy's personal preferences. If they wanted to, they could have a ten-year-old beat the crap out of Larloch... thats just how it goes.
We try to make sense out of the whims of others, and thats just not going to work. Add in the fact that they could just as easily (in 5e) say that the Zhents weren't destroyed at all - they merely moved their main base of operations elsewhere and tricked the Shades into thinking they were wiped-out (because they can accomplish so much more now as a covert operation).
There is no rhyme or reason to any of it. I stopped reading comics for much the same reasons (because 'the facts' change when the guys in charge changed). Its like trying to make sense out of Family Guy.. just enjoy it and try not to think too hard. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Feb 2013 15:50:01 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 18:06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
spent a few months with Larloch purchasing his support in his schemes with the locations of several Netherese artifacts (which he learned of from his beholder allies from Ooltul),
Why wouldn't Larloch just grab them from his mind?
Larloch is very powerful. So is Manshoon. Yes I'd agree Larloch is more powerful, but he's not omnipotent or omniscient. He cannot just go around taking all the knowledge he wants from everyone who knows something he does not - or else he would have done it long ago. It is cannon that Larloch made a deal with a Manshoon clone for some unknown reason. Just like he made a deal with Tamm in Thay.
Why would Larloch pick a fight with Manshoon when Manshoon is offering him exactly what he wants (power to subtly influence a huge power group, a full city of drow and a full city of beholders; the death of many Shadovar in their attack on Zhentil keep, AND Netherese artifacts). That is a sweet deal for an alliance and Larloch would have to be the king of a country of morons (instead of the genius lich-lord of an army of undead) to not jump at it, in my book. |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 01:40:17
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I do not recall the exact source of it, but as far as I know, it was kkind of punishment for the zhents allying up with the phaerimm in myth drannor.
Will look up the exact source as fast as posible, but was written in some official books I know for sure.
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 09:18:33
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Here's what I think happened.
After the Manshoon Wars started to die down a bit, Manshoon Prime left Candlekeep with his plans......
.....In my mind this demiplane is very much like Acererak's in the Return to the Tomb of Horrors adventure, only instead of a demilich you have a very alive Manshoon.
That works for me, can I knick this for my game please and play around with it so my players go    alot?
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 12:32:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Larloch is very powerful. So is Manshoon. Yes I'd agree Larloch is more powerful, but he's not omnipotent or omniscient. He cannot just go around taking all the knowledge he wants from everyone who knows something he does not - or else he would have done it long ago. It is cannon that Larloch made a deal with a Manshoon clone for some unknown reason. Just like he made a deal with Tamm in Thay.
Well depends on the point of view. Yes for you average or above average character Manshoon is very powerfull.
But from the view of the mayor power players like Larloch Manshoon is just a medicore wizard and you stated that he visited Larloch so all trumps are on his side.
Where do I find info about the manshoon clone that Larloch made a deal with? |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 21 Feb 2013 12:33:20 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 13:30:14
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
But from the view of the mayor power players like Larloch Manshoon is just a medicore wizard
Are we talking about the Manshoon in Zhentil Keep or the Manshoon Prime in his extra dimensional hideaway?
As for the former then yes he would struggle against Larloch, as for the latter I am not so sure it is that clear cut
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 13:57:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
I do not recall the exact source of it, but as far as I know, it was kind of punishment for the zhents allying up with the phaerimm in myth drannor.
This sounds familiar to me, as well.
Which just makes things worse - the Phaerimm are as alien as it gets. They would not ally with anyone, under any circumstances - they could barely tolerate each other. Their hubris made the Netherese look like a bunch of 'bleeding hearts'.
That was just some very bad plot right there, IMHO. I was just about to compare it to something similar (in FR), and realized it was the same author. I'm going to have to re-adjust my opinion of him yet again. I am a big advocate of portraying monsters as more then just mindless killing machines, but assigning human-like sensibilities/traits to such alien creatures is just bad research/bad design.
Humans are like chattel to Phaerimm - I don't talk to a chicken before I cook it, and neither would they. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Feb 2013 13:58:48 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 14:11:27
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Larloch vs Manshoon? Haha. That reminds me of one of Szass Tam's haughty but honest lines: "Your familiar has good instincts, Captain Fezim. At the risk of sounding immodest, I'm . . . formidable. When I kill with my own hands, the victim tends to be a fellow archmage, a demigod, or a whole army. Anything less is scarcely worth the bother . . ." Larloch would have told Manshoon something along that vein. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 14:15:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Humans are like chattel to Phaerimm - I don't talk to a chicken before I cook it, and neither would they.
You underestimate humans. You're talking the very same race that created magical storms and obliterated (albeit unintentionally) a considerable portion of the phaerimm population. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 14:17:37
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Szass Tam would mop the floor with Manshoon, and Szass Tam also feared Larloch (he would probably use the word 'cautious').
And the only person who 'worried' Larloch, AFAIK, was Halaster, because he was such a random quantity (a POWERFUL random quantity). And the ONLY person I have ever seen it even mildly alluded to that Halaster 'feared' was Shar (in Elminster in Hell), and I think that was more along the lines of fearful of what he had done, then Shar herself.
Sometimes even crazy can recognize crazy.
For me, Manshoon is the epitome of a 'in-your-face' villain. He hasn't graduated yet to the in-the-background master-schemer, even though he has the potential for it. He's a bit too 'hands on' for his own good (which is why he gets repeatedly killed). You would never see Szass Tam (or some of these others I've mentioned) riding a dragon into the Dalelands to confront a Spellfire user - the level of 'conspicuous & flagrant power displays' are rather distasteful to those masterminds. Everyone from generals to kings to coaches watch their enemies and learn their strategies, strengths, and weaknesses - what Manshoon does is just plain arrogant/stupid. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Feb 2013 14:22:08 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 14:31:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Sometimes even crazy can recognize crazy.
Excellent point. Though Halaster should have put Cyric no. 1 on his list. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 14:36:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Humans are like chattel to Phaerimm - I don't talk to a chicken before I cook it, and neither would they.
You underestimate humans. You're talking the very same race that created magical storms and obliterated (albeit unintentionally) a considerable portion of the phaerimm population.
RIGHT
And in the case of creatures like dragons, they've learned to NOT underestimate humans, and tread carefully around them (even though the weakest dragon could literally squash the mightiest human). Dragons are pretty alien - reptilian - but they still have enough of a connection to humanity to think somewhat like them. Phaerimm are just cut from a different cloth.
There was an episode of ST: Voyager where the Borg needed the Federation's help. At first, that seemed like another case of "they'd never do that!" But the Borg do have a commonality with humanity - the race they were up against were so alien (from a different universe) that nothing the Borg did would work on them. They needed that 'spark of genius' - that 'intuitive leap' that living, thinking creatures (like Earth humans) possess, and when you come right down to it, the Borg are all hive-minded zombies.
The other race - species 8471 - could NOT be reasoned with, on any level, because there was ZERO 'common ground'.
You and I (and dragons, and giants, and all the demihuman/humanoid races, etc) KNOW that humans are 'special' and can accomplish the impossible when they set their minds to it, but a Phaerimm would never accept that. At no point during the RotAW did they think they would loose, even when they were losing. It was simply beyond their comprehension.
A flock of chickens could theoretically peck a man to death, but they wouldn't even try (and couldn't even wrap their tiny brains around 'coordinated attacks'), but it IS possible... and we would never even consider that possibility walking into a chicken coop/farmyard. I remember as a boy walking into my uncle's farmyard and being afraid of the hundred or so chickens he had running around... and then my dad (or uncle) said that "they are more afraid of you then you are of them"... and it was true. They scattered as I walked forward. Since then I have never giving them a second thought (so they can ambush me!)
Thats how Phaerimm think - the thought that a human could pose any sort of threat to them is so hard for them to wrap their minds around that even when its happening they still don't 'get it'. By the same token, the thought that a human could be of any use beyond providing (magical) nourishment would also be beyond them - accepting non-Phaerimm allies is akin to admitting weakness, which they would ever (COULD never) do. They would look at the Zhents like the Zhents were crazy (and then kill them all).
At least, thats how I picture it. Obviously some authors seem to think all monsters think just like humans. More's the pity. Reasoning with a Phaerimm should be harder the reasoning with a hungry lion. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Feb 2013 14:44:52 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 14:37:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
[. . .] and Szass Tam also feared Larloch . . .
I used to believe that, specially after reading the entry on N:EoM. But as Ayrik once pointed out, the "shaking/trembling" part could be attributed to Szass Tam's excitement to hear the tale of Netheril's Fall straight from one of the surviving archwizards himself, and not indicative of "fear." |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 14:46:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thats how Pharimm think - the thought that a human could pose any sort of threat to them is so hard for them to wrap their minds around that even when its happening they still don't 'get it'.
The phaerimm are alien, but they are also an intelligent race. Despite their prejudice, when the obvious hits them in the face, they would have to wrap their minds around it and adapt. They thought humans were weak, nothing more than food. But when the humans wielded magic that actually killed them, the notion of weakness was all but forgotten.
Besides, if they truly believed humans were so weak and helpless, they should have been able to conquer or at the very least, control like puppet masters a few human realms. Even wonder why they haven't? Because among humans, there's always a bigger "fish," bigger than what any phaerimm could handle. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 14:52:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
[. . .] and Szass Tam also feared Larloch . . .
I used to believe that, specially after reading the entry on N:EoM. But as Ayrik once pointed out, the "shaking/trembling" part could be attributed to Szass Tam's excitement to hear the tale of Netheril's Fall straight from one of the surviving archwizards himself, and not indicative of "fear."
Think about it this way - these kinds of guys are technically 'bullies'. We both know how bullies think, and more importantly, why they behave the way they do.
Bullies are cowards at heart - when confronted with something they know could defeat them, it scares the crap out of them. For most normal folk, knowing there is someone who is capable of 'destroying' you is just a matter of course, and we have to deal with these people on a day-to-day basis.
How often does someone like Larloch or Szass Tam feel that way? Feel like they are in the presence of someone who could literally take them apart? When you are NOT used to that feeling, it becomes all the more frightening. Even the archmage Gromph Baenre feared the drowlich... and drow (and especially archmage drow) fear very little, and admit to those fears even less. Gromph was rather honest with himself in this regard - the drowlich was completely capable of mopping the floor with him.
The problem with Manshoon is that there is something psychologically WRONG with him - he is the type of child that got burned by the stove... and then touched it again. He may be brilliant, but he is broken.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Feb 2013 14:52:50 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 15:05:25
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I was thinking of some things to say, but when I reached the "psychologically WRONG" part, I forgot. But you were right, for the most part at least.
The "present" Szass Tam has nothing to fear about Larloch, I suppose--considering he dared summon Bane (at the risk of his own death). |
Every beginning has an end. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 16:29:01
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I wouldn't say that. Summoning Bane was a very bold move indeed. But Szass did it because he was convinced that he had something to offer Bane and he was desperate.
If Bane wouldn't have been interested in Szass' offer he would have mopped the floor with him.
The same goes with Larloch I guess. Szass had something Larloch wanted in a way he was ok with trading over it. If Szass would make Larloch really angry he would be in serious problems, even without Larloch having his phylactory. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 16:31:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
I do not recall the exact source of it, but as far as I know, it was kind of punishment for the zhents allying up with the phaerimm in myth drannor.
This sounds familiar to me, as well.
Which just makes things worse - the Phaerimm are as alien as it gets. They would not ally with anyone, under any circumstances - they could barely tolerate each other. Their hubris made the Netherese look like a bunch of 'bleeding hearts'.
That was just some very bad plot right there, IMHO. I was just about to compare it to something similar (in FR), and realized it was the same author. I'm going to have to re-adjust my opinion of him yet again. I am a big advocate of portraying monsters as more then just mindless killing machines, but assigning human-like sensibilities/traits to such alien creatures is just bad research/bad design.
Humans are like chattel to Phaerimm - I don't talk to a chicken before I cook it, and neither would they.
You know what they say, get a lemon, make lemonade. Maybe the Phaerimm had seized control of the Zhent leadership in Zhentil Keep. The Shadovar didn't feel like working through all the loose strings to find the puppetmasters, and instead they just simply smacked Zhentil Keep. Of course, I say all this and I hadn't even read the original reference (didn't know Zhentil Keep was destroyed by Shade... but it does make sense that those two power groups, so close together, would eventually come to blows). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 16:32:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
For me, Manshoon is the epitome of a 'in-your-face' villain. He hasn't graduated yet to the in-the-background master-schemer, even though he has the potential for it. He's a bit too 'hands on' for his own good (which is why he gets repeatedly killed). You would never see Szass Tam (or some of these others I've mentioned) riding a dragon into the Dalelands to confront a Spellfire user - the level of 'conspicuous & flagrant power displays' are rather distasteful to those masterminds. Everyone from generals to kings to coaches watch their enemies and learn their strategies, strengths, and weaknesses - what Manshoon does is just plain arrogant/stupid.
Manshoon is frequently described as using others to accomplish his goals. The one example you cite is not an example of Manshoon's SOP -- he was reacting to the fact that his lover had just been killed. I think just about anyone can be forgiven for not acting in the most rational manner, in those circumstances. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 17:10:07
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| Yes but in the end he everytime falls over his huge ego again where he thinks noone is able to stop him. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 19:11:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Humans are like chattel to Phaerimm - I don't talk to a chicken before I cook it, and neither would they.
You underestimate humans. You're talking the very same race that created magical storms and obliterated (albeit unintentionally) a considerable portion of the phaerimm population.
RIGHT
And in the case of creatures like dragons, they've learned to NOT underestimate humans, and tread carefully around them (even though the weakest dragon could literally squash the mightiest human). Dragons are pretty alien - reptilian - but they still have enough of a connection to humanity to think somewhat like them. Phaerimm are just cut from a different cloth.
There was an episode of ST: Voyager where the Borg needed the Federation's help. At first, that seemed like another case of "they'd never do that!" But the Borg do have a commonality with humanity - the race they were up against were so alien (from a different universe) that nothing the Borg did would work on them. They needed that 'spark of genius' - that 'intuitive leap' that living, thinking creatures (like Earth humans) possess, and when you come right down to it, the Borg are all hive-minded zombies.
The other race - species 8471 - could NOT be reasoned with, on any level, because there was ZERO 'common ground'.
You and I (and dragons, and giants, and all the demihuman/humanoid races, etc) KNOW that humans are 'special' and can accomplish the impossible when they set their minds to it, but a Phaerimm would never accept that. At no point during the RotAW did they think they would loose, even when they were losing. It was simply beyond their comprehension.
A flock of chickens could theoretically peck a man to death, but they wouldn't even try (and couldn't even wrap their tiny brains around 'coordinated attacks'), but it IS possible... and we would never even consider that possibility walking into a chicken coop/farmyard. I remember as a boy walking into my uncle's farmyard and being afraid of the hundred or so chickens he had running around... and then my dad (or uncle) said that "they are more afraid of you then you are of them"... and it was true. They scattered as I walked forward. Since then I have never giving them a second thought (so they can ambush me!)
Thats how Phaerimm think - the thought that a human could pose any sort of threat to them is so hard for them to wrap their minds around that even when its happening they still don't 'get it'. By the same token, the thought that a human could be of any use beyond providing (magical) nourishment would also be beyond them - accepting non-Phaerimm allies is akin to admitting weakness, which they would ever (COULD never) do. They would look at the Zhents like the Zhents were crazy (and then kill them all).
At least, thats how I picture it. Obviously some authors seem to think all monsters think just like humans. More's the pity. Reasoning with a Phaerimm should be harder the reasoning with a hungry lion.
I like the analogy, except you're forgetting about how the conflict with 8472 was resolved. Voyager showed they could hurt them, went into "fluidic space," a stupid name if you ask me, and eventually worked out kind of a treaty of attrition with them because the borg had invaded them not vice verse. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 19:43:27
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I think people's opinions about Manshoon being a fool who rushes in are based largely off of a misunderstanding. Manshoon does rush in and dies, but he does so deliberately. He knows he might die, but he doesn't care because he has a clone waiting prepared to wake up and take over. Old 2nd E text said he even did this on occasion just to get younger. Pop in, blow up a rising rival AND himself in some giant decimating spell (I always think of Mycontil's or a staff of power exploding in this setting) and then pick up where he left off.
Even when dealing with Elminster, who seems to be Manshoon's greatest obsession, Manshoon rarely rushes in, doing so only when all other options are eliminated. I also think that much of the huge ego idea comes from Ed's last couple books where he's trying to finally kill of Elminster. I'd argue that Vampshoon is an very different character than traditional Manshoon, but still works primarily behind the scenes. A lot of his eagerness here is the result of Elminster seeming vulnerable, after about 250 years of seeming untouchable. I.E. I have to kill him now while I still have a chance!
As I said before, YES Larloch is more powerful than Manshoon set side by side. But he KNOWS that he's not fighting one Manshoon, he could potentially face hundreds in succession. A foe that can die and come back and die and come back and die and come back forever is an enemy that no one wants. Its a waste of power and resources and potentially, some day, a losing struggle. That same foe turned into an ally is a resource that can be tapped again and again and again.
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To answer the earlier questions directed my way:
1) yes of course you can take anything I put here for your campaign and change it as you see fit. I have no copywrite and never will, thanks.
2) The only source about the Manshoon clones is Cloak and Dagger. I was referring to a single section which reads:
Manshoon (nine of him, to be precise) buys himself sanctuary in the company of many wizards such as Larloch The Lich-King, Vimal Craumerdaun of Eshpurta, Vynmarius of Athkatla, Vizar Mohad el Fisar of Manshaka, Teneral of Amruthar, Vyrth of Darmshall, Halaster of Undermountain, Master of Mages Guldor Zauviir of Sshamath, and the Simbul (a fact she keeps secret from even the most trusted of her apprentices!)
I merged two of these together into one; in my book the "such as" makes this easily possible. The nine of him could go to other wizards not listed as well :P. Manshoon Prime at Candlekeep is also from this source. |
Edited by - The Masked Mage on 21 Feb 2013 19:44:29 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 19:58:02
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Wise men say... only fools rush in... (with apologies to Elvis)
My favorite Elvis song, BTW. I used to sing it to me Ex (which may be why she dumped me... I sing TERRIBLE).
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Originally posted by sleyvas
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Originally posted by Markustay
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Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
I do not recall the exact source of it, but as far as I know, it was kind of punishment for the zhents allying up with the phaerimm in myth drannor.
This sounds familiar to me, as well.
Which just makes things worse - the Phaerimm are as alien as it gets. They would not ally with anyone, under any circumstances - they could barely tolerate each other. Their hubris made the Netherese look like a bunch of 'bleeding hearts'.
That was just some very bad plot right there, IMHO. I was just about to compare it to something similar (in FR), and realized it was the same author. I'm going to have to re-adjust my opinion of him yet again. I am a big advocate of portraying monsters as more then just mindless killing machines, but assigning human-like sensibilities/traits to such alien creatures is just bad research/bad design.
Humans are like chattel to Phaerimm - I don't talk to a chicken before I cook it, and neither would they.
You know what they say, get a lemon, make lemonade. Maybe the Phaerimm had seized control of the Zhent leadership in Zhentil Keep. The Shadovar didn't feel like working through all the loose strings to find the puppetmasters, and instead they just simply smacked Zhentil Keep. Of course, I say all this and I hadn't even read the original reference (didn't know Zhentil Keep was destroyed by Shade... but it does make sense that those two power groups, so close together, would eventually come to blows).
You know something?
Thats brilliant!
I hadn't even considered the Beholders. The Beholders are the one thing that make the Zhetarrim (including Manshoon) quake in their boots. On the other hand, the Phaerimm enslaved a whole city of them (which demonstrates the VAST power-gulf between the phaerimm and the Zhents).
The Phaerimm could have easily been controlling the Zhentil Keep beholders. in fact, they could have been doing it for awhile. Thats a very interesting angle indeed. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Feb 2013 19:59:05 |
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shade attack on zhentil keep
