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EcThelion
Learned Scribe
Norway
323 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Feb 2004 : 19:47:17
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quote:
i doubt that he is any thing but true nutral...
And lives to maintain the balance
That cannot be! 'cuz true Neutrals are biased twoards good! And one that allows madness to continue to exist can't possibly be good. Chaotic Neutral, rather. The aligment of the madman.  |
Ec'Thelion, formerly known as Forgotten One, now known as Ec'Thelion the Overpowered.
Currently not all that active. I'm preoccupied with Warcraft III for the moment. Bite me :P |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2004 : 23:05:38
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True Neutrals are not biased towards good. They are indifferent to good and evil, Law and chaos. The hardest to faithfully play and the most difficult when plot changing quests are under took. Chaotic Neutral, is a good alternative though (always am partial to the whims of madness ). |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2004 : 00:16:27
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| I agree with Deimos. An example of true neutral would probably be Helm. Look at the man, he doesn't follow any sides except for maybe Lord Ao's. If you have read Waterdeep, at the end of the book Helm defends Cyric from Midnight at the Celestial Stairway. Even though he knew what Cyric did to get the two tablets and the evil deeds the thief did, Helm still didn't let her go after Cyric. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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EcThelion
Learned Scribe
Norway
323 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2004 : 00:40:18
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Hah! But wizards.com say that True Neutrals would *ehem* "Rather have good neigbours than Evil ones"!!! Hahaha!!! So much for your "Not biased twoards good"-comments! Beat you into a pulp there, alright!
Ahhh... it's in the little things...  |
Ec'Thelion, formerly known as Forgotten One, now known as Ec'Thelion the Overpowered.
Currently not all that active. I'm preoccupied with Warcraft III for the moment. Bite me :P |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2004 : 02:37:24
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| EcThelion, that still doesn't really help your argument. True neutral characters are MORE LIKELY to be with good characters because evil characters often do things that will likely have a disagreement with a true neutral character. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2004 : 03:14:55
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True Neutrals would be more likely to prefer characters that keep to themselves, and don't disrupt things.  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2004 : 05:39:08
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| Bookwyrm is right. While a true neutral character probably won't get along too well with a lawfully good paladin sorta characer, he/she won't have any quams with being in the same party as maybe a chaotic good character. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2004 : 06:00:24
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No, that wasn't what I said. A neutral character is involved with balance. That doesn't mean that (s)he wants to have equal amounts of chaos/law or good/evil. It means (s)he wants things to move in harmony. In some cases, the prevalence of Law might be more harmonious than an ethical balance. (That would be a very special example, but it could happen.)
A neutral character would be more likely to get along with a character that is some way neutral as well. As well, good characters would be more to the neutral's liking in some respects, because good characters often consider the effects of their actions on others and on the world. However, many evil characters would as well. In the end, a neutral would find things wrong with both ends of the moral spectrum, since each side favors his/her own, not balance and harmony. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2004 : 12:06:27
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Let's not also forget that the class the neutral character chooses will also affect his/her perceptions of the moral balance. Such extreme polar opposite classes like Necromancer, or the cleric of a Lawful, or even Good deity can sometimes shift the character's alignment, tagging them with those irritating 2e add-ons...(CN - with some good/evil tendencies).
Harmony and balance are the most important considerations, but for anyone that has actually 'played' a CN PC, they will realise how much of an impact their chosen class will have on their outlook of the world around them, and their place in it.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2004 : 19:53:31
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Alas great Sage, We stand not with you on one thing. Harmony and balance are not necessarily of the same thing. Let us look at the known 'good' orginization known as 'The Harpers' as a result. They would benefit far more from being true neutral than... the common good as they are. A true neutral would seek to manipulate from behind the scenes. Not really for evil's sake (for that would make them evil) but indifferently.
We are reminded from one character known as Karla the Grey Witch (for those who are unsure of Anime, Tis from the Record of Lodoss War Series). Karla in the begining, seemed to support an Evil Warrior named Emperor Beld, But as Beld killed Gran in the Final Battle a spear, was sent by Karla through Beld's chest (then struck by a lightening bolt cast by her). The result was that both the front of Good and Evil, King Gran and Emperor Beld we dead upon the battlefield, each was used by Karla for her own reasons, but to maintain Balance. Balance maintained because each force was too weak to move against the other. With both leaders dead, and both armies and resources depleted the war could end (at least on the grand scale). Thus Lodoss could neither be conquered nor united.
Granted the Example was rough, but tis what we'll use. Harmony is harder to maintain than Balance, atleast, we think. One just need be powerful enough (or sneaky enough) to play all sides against one another. What We are trying to say, is that this person or orginization, while not on the front lines all the time, would seek to undo Law where Law has prevailed for generations, Seek to Tame Chaos where chaos has ever been. To corrupt the good and places where they make their home While in other places seek to force Evil to change their Evil ways and convert their Lairs into the very fortifications of Goodness. To have eveything switch places really. Then after everyone gets used to the change, do it all over again.
Not Really much for harmony (in some meanings of the word) but great for balance. At least that be our interpretation of What True Neutral would be.
As for preference in neighbours... A true Neutral would prefer neither. After all Neighbours are snoops and would get in the way of Realms meddling. That is why one must make home as far from civilization as possible. Besides. The Wizards of the (Sword) Coast are off their rocker anyways ..... And you can quote Us!
You know... this True Neutral thing might be why We say one thing at one point and the opposite in another...Hmmmm |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
Edited by - The Cardinal on 11 Feb 2004 19:55:55 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2004 : 00:21:56
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| Bookwyrm, I guess I didn't phrase my sentences properly. Lol. I agreed with you, but the last sentence was my own opinion kinda thing. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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EcThelion
Learned Scribe
Norway
323 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2004 : 12:24:22
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So basically True Neutrals are complete loonies who run around and cause havoc in the name of "Balance"... Hmmmm...
The Good peopel of the realms would be better off without all these crazy True Neutrals around, then! They've got enough to deal with for themselves, with various beasts, and Evil creatures running around. I would dare say that there is more Evil in the world than there is good (deliberate or no), thus the True Neutrals should fight evil!
In either case they pose threats to everybody but themselves, and are prone to maddened acts in the name of the balance! They should be killed on sight by either side, if you ask me. No "A enemy of my enemy is a friend of me" around here!
Burnm those crazy druids!  |
Ec'Thelion, formerly known as Forgotten One, now known as Ec'Thelion the Overpowered.
Currently not all that active. I'm preoccupied with Warcraft III for the moment. Bite me :P |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 01:46:35
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quote:
Originally posted by EcThelion
So basically True Neutrals are complete loonies who run around and cause havoc in the name of "Balance"... Hmmmm...
It all depends upon the setting you are playing in EcThelion. On some worlds (eg. Dark Sun, or some domains within Ravenloft) Chaotic Neutral can actually be an asset when it comes to dealing with some of the nastier sides of the campaign like Fear, Madness and Horror checks...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ius
Seeker
Sweden
63 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 02:17:12
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I say forget your gods, they are but manifestations of your own weaknesses. Why, if you are strong do you need a god?
Do you really need some ulterior force telling you that your actions are right or wrong? If you have the potential to strike and you do not, is it not a decision of your own? Or do you need the reassurence of a diety to prove to yourself that you did right.
If you need such reassurece you are in doubt, and whatever false pretentions you can gather from your god will only be a confirmation of the fact that you where acting in haste.
Instead of praying to your god to vindicate your actions, say to yourself; I was wrong! or, I was Right! or, I acted too soon and now I might have erred!
From this insight comes true enlightenment, If you admit your faults to yourself and (choose)to learn from them, you will gain a greater understanding of the world and your place whitin it. And of course if you are righteous you will be confident in your actions.
In the kingdom from which I hail we worshipped no gods as we saw none fit enough to worship, as we found power whithin magic that took us to the hights of the gods themselves. As you know; those mortals that show enough strenght can themselves become gods!
....How ironic then that our mighty civilization were torn down by slaves whos only strenght was in the faith of their gods! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 02:31:53
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While I commend your thhoughts on this Ius, you seem to be forgetting the integral role that the whole deity structure plays within a campaign setting. Without this structure, much of what makes a setting 'playable' would simply disappear - unless it is replaced with more alternate distinctions.
Take one of the worlds of my own creation from a few years back. On this world, called Tamar, there were no deities to supply the divine magic necessary for a campaign setting. Instead there were Dragons - massive in size, and near-Immortal in nature - that acted as the focus for divine energies upon Tamar. Each controlled a vast domain upon the planet's surface, in which only their magic would hold greater strength.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ius
Seeker
Sweden
63 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 02:38:50
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
While I commend your thhoughts on this Ius, you seem to be forgetting the integral role that the whole deity structure plays within a campaign setting. Without this structure, much of what makes a setting 'playable' would simply disappear - unless it is replaced with more alternate distinctions.
Take one of the worlds of my own creation from a few years back. On this world, called Tamar, there were no deities to supply the divine magic necessary for a campaign setting. Instead there were Dragons - massive in size, and near-Immortal in nature - that acted as the focus for divine energies upon Tamar. Each controlled a vast domain upon the planet's surface, in which only their magic would hold greater strength.
Yes of course I appreciate the gods role in a campaign, and by the way I think you had a really cool concept there, what I said above was, as you say, In character.
Hmm, I think those Iron Kingdom guys sorta stole your idea ther, whith dragons i mean.. |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 03:26:21
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Ah yessss... We are reminded of a phrase that we once came across in our readings:
" Ah, Religion. It is said that if the gods hadn't already been around, we mortals would have invented them. I learned long ago that religion isn't the sedative of the people, it's the crutch. And believe me, there are alot of cripples out there."
-Balathustrius
Such wisdom... Don't you agree with us? |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 06:00:33
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I'd seen a similar theme running through the Iron Kingdoms (which is a great setting BTW), but there are many fundamental (and campaign specific) differences with the 'Dragon' ideas that I had been using...Besides, the ideas I put forth originated in 1997...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ius
Seeker
Sweden
63 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 11:59:38
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'd seen a similar theme running through the Iron Kingdoms (which is a great setting BTW), but there are many fundamental (and campaign specific) differences with the 'Dragon' ideas that I had been using...Besides, the ideas I put forth originated in 1997...
I am a player in an IronKingdom campaign at the moment, and though FR is my absolute favorite, I enjoy the IK setting as well, as it has many unique features.
AS we are on the subject of gods I have found out that beginner players have an easier time playing clerics in the almost monotheistic IK setting, than in for instances FR.
Does any of you guys have a good tip about how to introduce religion in the FR to a beginner player? I can see how it can be pretty hard as a beginner to sort out the many gods of the FR. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 12:29:42
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Hmm...that's a very interesting question. At first thought, I would say that only exposing your player to those deities with alignment similar to your players would be a good start, since it would allow the players to adjust to deities that promote the same ideals and beliefs they do.
However, in the Realms that type of situation can be difficult to employ, and effectively roleplay for that matter.
Maybe start the game during the pre-Time of Troubles era of the Realms. This could serve to let them get a 'feel' for the deity flavour of the Realms before the changes wrought by the Gods War (and the many dire crisis to come).
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 17:19:28
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| I think you guys have much too narrow an interpretation of "Nuetral". Some nuetrals are concerned with the "balance" (like those annoying Druids) but it can also mean that somebody considers certain things (like family, friends, or country) more important than abstract moral principles. Essentially, a nuetral character would act "good" towards loved ones, "evil" towards enemies, and mostly indifferent to everything else. |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 18:13:49
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| any way they are cowards... |
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Darth KTrava
Learned Scribe
USA
172 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2004 : 04:58:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyric
yes sweet is parhaps not the right the right, mad with blodlust is more right but he was alright. And Cyric is one of the gods is he not and now you know about him.
And Cyric is always better.
Sounds like Cyric needs to switch to decaf.....
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Evil will be dealt with swiftly as it is my duty to remove such evil from my presence.
-Rozhena, Cleric/Divine Champion of Torm |
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Darth KTrava
Learned Scribe
USA
172 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2004 : 05:07:12
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quote:
Originally posted by EcThelion
Mystra, Kelemvor, Oghma, Azuth, Mask, Tyr, Torm, Deneir, Leira, Iyachtu Xvim, and all the others should just gang-up on him, and destroy him.
Cyric is a raving lunatic, and needs to be put down for the good of everybody else. Then again, what would the world be without raving lunatics that crusade around, and kill people seemingly out random? It would be a pretty booring place, I tell you! 
Then again, we do still have the monsters.
I'll go along with that!!! Cyric will not be able to withstand ALL of us at once! His "powers" are waaay too puny to be a match for the side of righteousness!!
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Evil will be dealt with swiftly as it is my duty to remove such evil from my presence.
-Rozhena, Cleric/Divine Champion of Torm |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2004 : 06:18:10
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| Bah! For the last time, Xvim is gone! He was instrumental in the return of Bane, but that was all. He merely existed to provide The Black Lord with a way to avoid death. Hey, I don't side with Bane, (I'm a Vhaeraunite) I am merely getting the facts straight. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2004 : 04:52:47
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| Alas, Cyric is worthy of keeping though... (aleast until one deity claims the actual portfolio of Maddness, then Cyric is toast) after all, what better being to keep order and balance than Cyric. Cyricists may be a great threat to Faerun... but Cyric is an indispensable part of it.... until someone better comes along... |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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RaVeN1463
Seeker
USA
96 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2004 : 23:19:16
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| Hopefully that wont be too long. |
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Dark_Lord
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2004 : 14:11:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyric
By the way Cyric did attack Mystra with out magic and cut of her fingers so in your face Cyric is always better and you all know it.
And Cyric is way more powerful then Mystra she just a weak puney girl. And Shar could do that then it would go from esaey to kill her to very eseay.
And he has not lesser power and we are not talking about mouch power he lost, Cyric always win. And Bane did not really take power Cyric gave the lesser things he did not want
What? How dare you punny heretic? I can't sustain myself, I must laugh! Let me remind you that your weakling patron actually stole portfolios of three mighty gods when there was no one else to take’em instead of him. He was probably the best option for the sake of Faerun at the time. HA! Let me remind you also, that Lord Bane retreived all of his stolen portfolios when He returned. He was even granted a new one. He took lost portfolio of Fear! Remind me, heretic, where was your almighty Cyric when Bane returned to reclame his powers. What happened to your great god? Where was he hiding? Why was he not there to stop him? He was probably busy with self-destruction and rallying his ever-moronic followers to act. Let me remind your washed out brain, heretic, that your flawless Cyric was defeated a thousand times, and that he is constantly loosing power. One called Fzoul Chembryl, also known as Chosen of Bane, humiliated your “intelligent” god so utterly that great halls of the Black Gauntlet still echo with laughter of Banities. And what about the destruction of Zhentil Keep? Just don’t tell me that your master-minded deity wanted it to happen? That fool read Cyrinishad knowing that it would bring him disaster! Face it heretic. During the period of consolidation, even the forces of Black Network, realized that Cyric was no Bane. Whereas Bane was an experienced, wily, patient sort, Cyric was a fool, a hot-headed recent mortal who still retained his mortal perspectives. Cyric was a bane on Zhentil Keep and you know it! I wonder what will happen now when we control that mighty organization? It is only a matter of time heretic. Church of Bane will wreack havoc upon Cyric’s disorganized following. I spit in the face of your little deity, and you know why? Because Bane is my patron. When Chembryl was able to trick Cyric, I just wonder what will happen when Bane confronts him…
All of you out there listen to my chant. Know that Bane was, and that Bane always will be. There is still time for all of you mislead. Hear my calling: Serve no one but Bane!
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2004 : 15:29:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark_Lord
All of you out there listen to my chant. Know that Bane was, and that Bane always will be. There is still time for all of you mislead. Hear my calling: Serve no one but Bane!
Bane? Isn't he dead How can anyone who died be that important |
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Dark_Lord
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2004 : 20:20:21
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| On midwinter night of 1372 DR, Xvim burst in a conflagration of diabolical green light. From the smoking husk of his remains emerged a newly reinvigorated Bane, his right hand ablaze with green fire. Xvim, it appeared, had been little more than a sentient cocoon for the foresighted god, Lord Bane. |
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gods
