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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 19:47:04
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(shelved under the closest approximation of "general chat" I could find)
I had a rant, but edited my Wall Of Text to a single passage.quote:
(A scene from Peter Jackson's LotR, when viewed properly)
Another orc corpse was dropped onto the pile with a metallic clank. Weary warriors busied themselves with the distasteful glory of moving bodies from the field after a hard-fought victory at Helm's Deep.
The elf Legolas could be seen wandering aimlessly, a lazy lackard half-lost within idle daydreams, stiffly stepping over corpses in something between a halting drunken stupor and a skittishly dainty strut. He stopped and turned when he noticed Gimli, son of Gloin, noble dwarven scion of House Durin, who had comfortably seated himself upon a felled orc to enjoy a well deserved respite between honest labours. Legolas swaggered over, uninvited, and assumed his usual foppishly contrived pose.
"Final count ..." he boasted while fondly stroking his elven longbow in a sexually suggestive manner "... forty two." He stared evenly at Gimli as he spoke this obvious lie.
"Forty two?" Gimli repeated in an openly appreciative tone to this golden-haired effete who had rudely interrupted his meditations. "Ah, well, that's not too bad for a pointy-earred elvish princeling" he offered politely. "Of course, I myself am sitting pretty on forty *three*" he finished with modest (yet justified) dwarven pride while savouring another puff from his pipe.
A petulant and sinister expression briefly danced across the elf's sharp features, twisting in a heartbeat to reveal an angular mask of seething inhuman rage. Within another heartbeat, without any attempt to issue fair warning or challenge, he had drawn and fired an arrow directly at the seated figure of his steadfast ally. Only Gimli's superior warrior reflexes (or was it his unfaltering wariness of elven treachery?) saved his hand from being impaled, and he calmly glanced down at an arrow now firmly lodged in orc flesh a mere finger's width away from his vitals. Ignoring the arrow, he kept moving his hand towards his axe while fixing a stony glare on the uppity elf in warning.
"Forty three" Legolas claimed with unblinking smugness. His fey smile barely concealed his smirking superiority and contempt.
"He was already dead" the dwarf countered flatly.
"He was twitching" the elf prevaricated instantly, but in an uncertain almost-wheedling voice. To his credit, or perhaps to credit his centuries of practicing deception, the tips of his pointed ears didn't turn red.
"He was twitching" continued Gimli with a beard-bristling roar of righteous indignation "'cause he's got *my axe* embedded in his nervous system!" He twisted his axe with savage emphasis, proving the truth to all by punctuating each shouted word with the dead orc's jerks and spasms.
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[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 26 Jan 2013 19:55:20
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36821 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 20:14:07
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I once read an interview where Orlando Bloom stated that elves are sexually non-threatening.
Being an elf and a pirate obviously worked out well for him. Not every guy can hook up with a Victoria's Secret model. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 20:37:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I once read an interview where Orlando Bloom stated that elves are sexually non-threatening.
Being an elf and a pirate obviously worked out well for him. Not every guy can hook up with a Victoria's Secret model.
Every girl needs a gay guy friend, precisely because they're sexually non-threatening.  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 22:47:00
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| Hey, I'd like a gay guy-friend. Elves are my favorite race, in and outside the Realms. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 23:56:57
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quote:
Wooly Rupert
I once read an interview where Orlando Bloom stated that elves are sexually non-threatening.
Misdirection, lies, and propaganda. Sure, it seems like a plausible statement when one considers the generally small ... stature ... of elves. But why then are there so many half-elves, at least one in every party, and why are they so damned popular? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 27 Jan 2013 02:29:11 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 00:16:02
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Because they are awesome I think I will always be on the defensive when it comes to elves, being as I am a "fangirl". If I were born in the Realms, I'd want to be an elf.
It seems like you're in good company, though, Ayrik. It looks like a lot of people on this site dislike, or even hate, elves. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 01:01:29
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I'm not quite an elf-hater*. But I don't disguise my dislike of society's distinct preference for elves, nor for elves clearly dominating so many (seemingly all) aspects of the fantasy genre. I'd estimate that at least 60% of all Realmslore is written about elves, elven lands or histories or magics or whatever - which seems quite disproportionate in a world where elves are supposedly declining and humans supposedly dominate, let alone the many other races which also happen to exist in the setting. Moreover, aside from most drow and of course all the Elminster-tier NPCs, it is almost always elves who lead the vanguard and champion the noblest causes and turn the tide of hopeless battles. Why can't the other races of Faerûn take care of themselves, be self-reliant, learn from their own mistakes? Elves are not infallible, and from where I stand, they're not even welcome.
* Actually, it's kender vermin and halflings in general which I most despise, disgusting creatures. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 27 Jan 2013 01:14:06 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31796 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 02:09:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I once read an interview where Orlando Bloom stated that elves are sexually non-threatening.
I think it depends on the world we're talking about. Because I can remember one distinct instance in DRAGONLANCE lore that demonstrated the sexually-charged threat a Silvanesti warrior elf once presented to a elven maiden. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 02:30:55
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| Dragonlance seems comparatively unpolluted by elven dominance. They're still haughty and superior, but at least they tend to isolate themselves away from the center stage. |
[/Ayrik] |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 03:46:43
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| Actually, there are quite a number of non-Realms fantasy series that don't have elves in them. Yes, elves can be haughty and few themselves as superior, and yes, some of them are jerks, and they are hardly infallible (Crown Wars, *cough cough*), but humans can be nasty, too. Elves aren't perfect, but I still love them. If they disappear from the Realms, well, you won't see me on this site anymore. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31796 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 04:10:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Dragonlance seems comparatively unpolluted by elven dominance. They're still haughty and superior, but at least they tend to isolate themselves away from the center stage.
The Silvanesti elves, maybe... but the Qualinesti tend toward more "integration" with non-elven races.
The Kagonesti, of course, are the highly xenophobic isolationist elves on Krynn. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 04:15:09
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But I don't recall the Dragonlance tales being elf-centric. Maybe a few, but the world didn't constantly revolve around them, as it does all-too-often in the Realms. The spotlight illuminated elves from time to time, but only when they were involved in a grander (non-elven) tale.
I admit I might be mistaken, it's been a long time since I read Dragonlance.
I just wonder why is it always elves. Dwarves have been reduced to comedic props not unlike midget wrestlers. Humans are always around but never quite as cool and capable and sexy and wise and potent as the elves. Other races are basically incidental, unless they align themselves with or against elves.
Welcome to Feyrûn, heartland of the world Torelf.
(PS: I still love Elaine's work, even if it's usually too thick with pointy ears for my tastes.) |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 27 Jan 2013 04:31:29 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36821 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 05:35:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
But I don't recall the Dragonlance tales being elf-centric. Maybe a few, but the world didn't constantly revolve around them, as it does all-too-often in the Realms. The spotlight illuminated elves from time to time, but only when they were involved in a grander (non-elven) tale.
I admit I might be mistaken, it's been a long time since I read Dragonlance.
I just wonder why is it always elves. Dwarves have been reduced to comedic props not unlike midget wrestlers. Humans are always around but never quite as cool and capable and sexy and wise and potent as the elves. Other races are basically incidental, unless they align themselves with or against elves.
Welcome to Feyrûn, heartland of the world Torelf.
(PS: I still love Elaine's work, even if it's usually too thick with pointy ears for my tastes.)
It's because elves are sexy, and they stay sexy for half of forever. Near-eternal youth and sexiness -- what isn't appealing about that?
It's the same for a lot of vampire fiction. They're forever sexy, and the issues of needing SPF 9,000,000 and frequent trips to the Blood Bank are often downplayed to play up the OMG!Sexy! angle.
I'd love to see a lot more focus on dwarves, myself, but elves haven't really bothered me -- at least they're still mostly true to Tolkien. Most vampires are pretty far from Bram Stoker, though, and that bugs me. I think the non-Black Court vampires of the Dresden Files are the only non-Stoker vampires I like, and that's because he's handled them in a creative way, and because he doesn't play down the monstrous angle. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Jan 2013 05:37:32 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 05:59:09
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Vampires evolved from folktales to Stoker to Lugosi to the Masquerade to Angel to Anne Rice. Demons to monsters to objects of comedy to sex symbols. They've evolved, and seem (to me) to be devolving back into beasts as society becomes bored and replaces sexy vampires with sexy supermutants and cyborgs and those ever-accursed elves.
Gygax's D&D elves are essentially based on Tolkien's elves. Recent D&D elves are influenced by elves from the rest of the fantasy genre (which was itself influenced by early D&D), and although they're available in a wider variety of sinister flavours they're largely the same old elf we've always had before. When will elves finally begin to fade away and vacate some space in the genre for other races, as the trope has falsely claimed all along? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 10:38:02
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Actually, there are quite a number of non-Realms fantasy series that don't have elves in them. Yes, elves can be haughty and few themselves as superior, and yes, some of them are jerks, and they are hardly infallible (Crown Wars, *cough cough*), but humans can be nasty, too. Elves aren't perfect, but I still love them. If they disappear from the Realms, well, you won't see me on this site anymore.
Well said. Elves are my favorite race as well, while I don't condone arrogance and prejudice one can hardly claim that humans are free of such things themselves. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 11:36:56
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I thought this thread talks about elves, not gays.
Anyway, I have no problem with elves in general, just the ones in the Realms, unless they're treated appropriately like that pet slave of Maligor's. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 14:25:02
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| They should give a proper portrayal of drow in movies, that would quickly end any elf fandom in it´s tracks |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
Edited by - Lord Bane on 27 Jan 2013 14:25:28 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 18:27:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Actually, there are quite a number of non-Realms fantasy series that don't have elves in them. Yes, elves can be haughty and few themselves as superior, and yes, some of them are jerks, and they are hardly infallible (Crown Wars, *cough cough*), but humans can be nasty, too. Elves aren't perfect, but I still love them. If they disappear from the Realms, well, you won't see me on this site anymore.
Well said. Elves are my favorite race as well, while I don't condone arrogance and prejudice one can hardly claim that humans are free of such things themselves.
Exactly. A lot of the Realms novels actually have humans as main characters. And, if it's not the elves, then I'm sure another race would have the spotlight and the argument would be the same. I think all the races view themselves as superior. It's not just elves. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 18:57:47
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| Oh, and to add my piece about the vampires. The Noble Dead saga by Barb and J.C Hendee has a cool take on vampires. They have an interesting take on elves, too. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 19:07:13
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Perhaps I just feel it would be nice - even just once - if somebody else got a shot at saving the Realms from the nasty army of undead, fiends, shadows, phaerimm, necromancers, etc. I mean, if somehow an ancient forgotten evil is awakened somewhere in the deepest and darkest corners of the Realms ... wouldn't it make sense for the dwarven miners who knocked open the vault to grab their battleaxes and hack the evil down themselves? Constantly being bailed out by elven heroes and cabals of elven high mages and their elite phalanxes of elven archer-ninjas really gets tiresome for those of us who aren't smitten by fey. Imagine the elves having to swallow their pride and actually ask humans to rescue them. I'm not talking about the usual epic square-chinned humans, or the dark and flawed anti-hero humans, meddling human gods, megameddling human Chosen, the usual gaggle of save-the-world Mary-Sues (sorry, authors) ... I'm talking about a "Zounds!" of grubby illiterate Dalesmen rednecks spilling blood and kicking some troll to save the wimpy fairies.
Most people (away from Candlekeep, at least) love All Things Elven, they do not want a Realms without elven focus. And they'd be right to abandon a Realms without elves. But on the other side of the coin, some of us abandon the Realms to seek out other lands which aren't as infested by the fey. I'm not trying to advocate an extremely one-sided position to force a "false compromise" argument towards moderation (and, if anything, my anti-elven bias aligns with the minority in terms of book popularity/sales) ... but there should be alternatives for those of us who don't want to frolic in the magical forest.
Is it impossible for a story about Cormyr or the Dales to be told without any pointy-earred plots and subtleties? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 27 Jan 2013 19:28:44 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36821 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 21:01:20
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| I don't know about anyone else, but I've never felt it was always elves coming to save the day... More oft, there are only one or two elves involved, or the elven bacon is what is getting pulled out of the fire. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 21:42:27
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Let me play devils advocate *shamlessly stealing the job of Chosen of Asmodeus*
What if they shouldn´t simply use "villains"? In all honesty, what´s keeping them portraying the "evil" and let them, oh no how dreadfull, win?
People surely get that D&D is about people saving the day to put it very bluntly, but who ever said that it shouldn´t be the antagonists of most stories?
I mean Book of Vile Darkness had a promising flow in that regard, yet at the end they fell for the same dogma D&D has stuck for years "good needs to triumph".
D&D has a great variety of evil but yet the same repetitive characters go about, mostly at suicidal odds and yet come out as the winner, can´t they simply get more creative and use a differant approach? |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe
151 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 22:00:18
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It's interesting. I've actually never really noticed the pro-elven bias described here. Sure, a lot of people love Elves (me included), but in terms of Elves always showing up to save the day, it's not something I've ever really taken particular notice of. Sure, it happens in some places, but I tend to find that I've come across of stories where this has not been the case.
That being said, sure. Let's have some elfless stories where various non-elves can have their fun. Let some dwarves delve too deep in their mountains, and have to fight off an endless horde of enemies and some powerful entity. Let the men of the Dales have fun fighting off an invasion from another adjacent human kingdom. Whatever, as long as it's well-written. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 22:37:14
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| For elfless stories- gee, Year of Rogue Dragons, anybody? There were no elves in that trilogy, unless one countsthe original casters of the high-magic ritual that caused the Rage- and they were all LONG dead. Or what about Gauntlegrym? Sure there were a few elves involved, but it was Bruenor and Pwent and Arthrogate who stopped the primorddial. I've RARELY ever seen elves as the sole- or even MAIN heroes, outside of Drizzt, who barely counts as an elf, since he is one of those "traitor" drow! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31796 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 01:06:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know about anyone else, but I've never felt it was always elves coming to save the day... More oft, there are only one or two elves involved, or the elven bacon is what is getting pulled out of the fire.
Agreed.
I've always seen it more as an extension of the Retreat... in that the elves still really aren't as invested with saving the day as they once were. Historically speaking, of course. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 01:17:09
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| Hmm, perhaps my opinions are influenced by my reading of Realms history more than Realms present, primarily 2E-era and 3E-era history which is pervasively dominated by elves. Perhaps things have changed, although I'll admit that I spend far more time as a planewalker than as a resident of the parochial (and elf-saturated) Realms, so the damage is already done. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4690 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 02:18:42
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| Many factors certainly can apply. It clearly can be effected by material read. Elves have not tended to be heroes as I recall, however things like healing or blade allowed another to save the day. That is sometimes an elf might be the power of success or failure by providing or withholding aid. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 03:17:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Vampires evolved from folktales to Stoker to Lugosi to the Masquerade to Angel to Anne Rice. Demons to monsters to objects of comedy to sex symbols. They've evolved, and seem (to me) to be devolving back into beasts as society becomes bored and replaces sexy vampires with sexy supermutants and cyborgs and those ever-accursed elves.
Gygax's D&D elves are essentially based on Tolkien's elves. Recent D&D elves are influenced by elves from the rest of the fantasy genre (which was itself influenced by early D&D), and although they're available in a wider variety of sinister flavours they're largely the same old elf we've always had before. When will elves finally begin to fade away and vacate some space in the genre for other races, as the trope has falsely claimed all along?
For the record, Anne Rice came LONG before Angel (Interview With the Vampire first published 1976). Just sayin'. And vampires have been "sex symbols" FAR longer than recent Hollywood incarnations would imply. Even before Stoker wrote Dracula (in which the three vampire brides were sertainly considered seductive, as was old Drac himself) there was Varney of "The Feast of Blood" serial novels. They were sort of like the chapbooks mentioned so often in FR around Waterdeep and other places. Penny Dreadfuls, they were called, and it was one of the most popular of its time. The vampire in it seduced quite a few women, so the sex-symbol view is hardly new. Same with the 19th century novel Camilla. A female vamp who was apparently also into other gals- which made it even more shocking for the times!
So Twilight and the Vampire Diaries are really just extensions of an idea that has been around a LOOONG time! And for that matter, even in folklore, both vamps AND elves have long been considered romantic or seductive figures. "Elves" or fey folk have figued in many folk tales as seducing and carrying off humans to thewir realms, even marrying them in some tales. And the humans go willingly, more often than not. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 03:34:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know about anyone else, but I've never felt it was always elves coming to save the day... More oft, there are only one or two elves involved, or the elven bacon is what is getting pulled out of the fire.
I have to agree with Wooly. As someone who primarily reads the novels, I really don't see the pro elven bias outside of a few elf centric novels. If anything there is an overwhelming pro human bias. Sure, Elves contributed quite a bit to the Realms in the past. But in the present humans are mostly running the show. I do agree with the comments that we need more Dwarf centric stories though. Then again, I also think we need to see more of races like the Yuan Ti, Hobgoblins, etc that have their own civilizations and history.
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Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2013 : 03:47:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Vampires evolved from folktales to Stoker to Lugosi to the Masquerade to Angel to Anne Rice.
I want to add that The Masquerade also came after Anne (not to be too nitpicky).
I am not sure I can relate the love of vampires to elves.. Especially since I cannot in honestly think of the things from Twilight or that tv show Vampire Diaries are actually vampires. They are like vamp lites.
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Society thinks elves are cool
