| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 10:50:01
|
According to 3rd edition sources, the Thaluud are actually constructs of the Netherese, created and controlled to fight Phaerimm in retaliation for their draining of magic.
I was reading through "The Spider Mage's History" from the old Menzoberranzan boxed set, and came across a mention of them which makes this impossible.
According to the history, in the aftermath of the House Nasadra / House S'sril fighting (which would be some time between -3864 and -3842, when Ched Nasad was founded)
"refugees arrived from fallen Golothaer and from Cloibbra, a drow city far to the south that had been sacked by dwarves, svirfneblin, and thaalud working together."
This puts the Thaluud in the southern Underdark before the first Netherese Arcanist was ever born.
Just thought this was a fun little oversight, that the other old school Realms fans would enjoy.
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 11:18:21
|
Heh. Those thaluud were probably controlled by the Skulls of Skullport (who were former Netherese arcanists). Or by some other unknown Netherese archwizard who survived the Fall. |
Every beginning has an end. |
 |
|
|
The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 11:41:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Heh. Those thaluud were probably controlled by the Skulls of Skullport (who were former Netherese arcanists). Or by some other unknown Netherese archwizard who survived the Fall.
c. -750 DR (c. -1782 NR )
An order of powerful Netherese wizards takes up residence amid an unexcavated section of Melairbode, in what is now known as the third level of Undermountain. The name of the outpost is lost to time, though some scholars refer to it as the Sargauth Enclave.
---
The former Netherese Arcanist who made Skullport would not be born for about another 3000 years, Dennis. :) |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 13:24:03
|
"Canon is but an illusion".
Tomb Tappers are first(?) written-up in the Netheril boxed set, and it says there they are artificial and created by the Netherese. Copyright 1996.
Ed Greenwood wrote the entry in the 1992 Menzoberranzan box - it preceded the Netheril box by at least 4 years.
Slade created a continuity gaff... no surprise there (Unless, of course, there is an earlier source, in which case Ed screwed up... unless he didn't write that particular entry).
Two possibilities - the Netherese were merely copying someone else's earlier work (the Sarrukh?), or those particular Thaalud went through time (many ways that could have happened). An interesting twist would be that Thaalud can simply 'ignore' time (but that would create many new problems, me thinks).
I had a Thaalud once. In fact, I had Thoup and Thalud. 
(Seriously.. I have been dying to make that joke for years... pathetic... I know) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 14:02:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
"Canon is but an illusion".
Tomb Tappers are first(?) written-up in the Netheril boxed set, and it says there they are artificial and created by the Netherese. Copyright 1996.
I had a Thaalud once. In fact, I had Thoup and Thalud.
(Seriously.. I have been dying to make that joke for years... pathetic... I know)
I know the MC sheet I had for them was from FR13 Anauroch (1991),
which had this:
Ecology: Several prominent sages believe thaalud are created beings, originally humans altered by magic in fallen Netheril. This view is supported by their faceless heads (arguing they have been changed from a humanoid norm), and by their spell immunities (suggesting they were created to fight the Phaerimm). Tapper beliefs indicate they know magic has power over them. Some, including Elminster, think thaalud were originally made from rock, animated in human form. This view is supported by their turning to stone at death.
I loved how the old source books said "sages believe" so nothing was ever locked in. Ah the good 'ol days.
Oh, and I like my Thaalud with Frech Dressing. :)
|
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 14:12:50
|
It seems to me that it was supposed to be vague (I love that as well), and then it went in two different directions later on. Good catch on that 1991 entry - it hadn't even occurred to me to check Anauroch as well.
In my last post I suggested that perhaps the Netherese 'copied' something they found; if we take that a step further (and add-in the new info you've provided), perhaps the original Thaalud were some sort of (planer) race, and the Tomb-Tappers the Netherese created were replicants of those (simulcrums, golems, automatons, etc).
Which leads me to believe that part of what the Thaalud do is keep magic from falling into Phaerimm hands (since 'starving' them seems to be one of the few ways to deal with them). If this is the case, and Tomb-tappers are some sort of anti-Phaerimm weapon, then it is indeed possible that earlier versions were crated by either (or both) the Sarrukh and the Imaskari (who had dealt with the Phaerimm as well).
The Thaluud may also have been created by the Sharn, or brought to Toril by them. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jan 2013 14:13:53 |
|
|
|
The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 16:07:03
|
Hi, all.
Ed created Tomb Tappers around 1976 or so. They first appeared in DRAGON Magazine (or "The Dragon," as it was back then), and yes, Ed was always deliberately vague about their origins. Strange creatures encountered in the depths SHOULD be mysterious at first encounter, right?  Adds to the fun...
love to all,
THO |
|
|
|
The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 16:22:38
|
| I was curious so I looked back. Turns out it was Dragon #41, with old style stats, and no mention at all of being created beings, and no mention of Netheril. Thanks for the reminder THO. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2013 : 21:45:35
|
This is one of those 'too many cooks' and an ever-expanding shared-world genesis, then.
I know the official timelines for everything are somehwat skewed from how Ed envisioned things, and from what I gather, he writes most everything from the perspective of his Realms (so when others create 'official timelines', we wind up with anachronisms).
So to fix that, we have refugees from a (fallen) Drow city describing golem-like critters working with Dwarves and gnomes (both of whom are known for creating automata/clockworks) to folk at another drow settlement some time after the incident occurred. Its fairly easy to see how - as things get retold and re-written (across different languages, even) that something got mis-translated/confused. Whatever those drow fought it was something similar to Tomb-Tappers, which is how modern Sages have labeled them.
Thats the 'Occams razor' explanation. I personally prefer my explanations far more convoluted (I must had been brainwashed by comics and bad TV/movie/game continuities).
Native Americans (IIRC) had some sort of Cryptid legend about giants with no heads and mouths in their torsos (or was it the Greeks? Both, perhaps?). And then there are the Snapping Turks from Yellow Submarine - I believe one of the material components to summon those is LSD.
Just found out that its considered a TV Trope. Lotsa cool stuff on that Internet. 
Anyhow, my idea is that they saw something else, and people (today) believe it was Thaluuds they saw. It may have even been Thaluuds - just ones created by someone else. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jan 2013 21:46:04 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 10:58:17
|
Hmm. Perhaps those thaluud were a different kind of monster, living or undead? And it could be where the Netherese based their constructs of the thaluud. Was it mentioned in the Menzo boxed set that those were Netherese-created thaluud? |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 11:03:35
|
| No. And they could not have been - unless they are Netherese time traveling Thaalud - which for me is just getting ridiculous. :) |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 11:37:45
|
See, so it's possible that those "ancient" thaludd were (for the sake of an example) eight-feet human-size chickens with the head of a catfish. The Netherese read of them somewhere, liked the "name" but not the creatures themselves, and so used said term to name one of their constructs. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 15:30:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Hmm. Perhaps those thaluud were a different kind of monster, living or undead? And it could be where the Netherese based their constructs of the thaluud. Was it mentioned in the Menzo boxed set that those were Netherese-created thaluud?
It's also possible that thaluud existed, in their current form or one very similar, long before the Netherese. The Netherese either copied the design and made their own, or they captured and modified the Mk. I thaluud, remaking them into the current, Mk. II thaluud. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 21:36:44
|
On the other hand, we already have TWO DIFFERENT NAMES for them... why not run with that? The Thaluud were some sort of ancient (planer?) race that the Netherese were aware of, and they modeled their 'Tomb Tappers' on those. One group are natural (or maybe created much earlier by something else), and the second group were artificial lifeforms developed by the Netherese which superficially resembled the originals.
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
No. And they could not have been - unless they are Netherese time traveling Thaalud - which for me is just getting ridiculous. :)
How about time-traveling, belly-mouthed, magic-eating automatons with freakin' lasers on their heads?
And this train of thought has now lead me to most 'ebil DM' idea EVER.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 08:18:14
|
My theory is that "thaalud" is the Netherese name for older creatures, who have long been called "tomb tappers" (translated into their own languages of course) by the Underdark races. The Keeper of the Thaal (Underdark 179) dwells in the Vault, and has created or achieved control over a number of thaalud, and uses them as retrievers of loot and and defenders of the hoard. There are groups of tomb tappers all over the Underdark, but outside the boundaries of Buried Realms they're smaller and far less likely to interact directly with travelers who mind their own business (but how many adventurers does that describe?). Within the Buried Realms, the thaalud are organized and aggressive in their attempts to acquire magic for their master. Thus, since the vast majority of the tomb tappers who are actually encountered are part of the group controlled by the Keeper of the Thaal (almost inevitably the remains of an arcanist, or possibly someone even older than Netheril) the common story is that all thaalud are controlled by him, and some even say that the tomb tappers are only found in the northern underdark of the Realms.
Just my take.
The bit about there possibly being more than one type (and thus more than one origin) of thaalud sounds totally viable too.
And Markustay: your description of them as belly-mouthed reminded me of Austin Powers. "Git in mah belleh!" Stop that.
Edit: it would fit decently with my own campaign if the Keeper of the Thaal was Imaskari. But I take Imaskar in a very different direction than published lore, so I shall bottle that thought for now.
Edit2: eh, I guess Anauroch: EoS has more on him that I hadn't read before. And I don't like the idea of making thaalud out of humanoids, but that's just me. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 27 Jan 2013 08:29:37 |
|
|
|
The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 09:48:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
My theory is that "thaalud" is the Netherese name for older creatures, who have long been called "tomb tappers" (translated into their own languages of course) by the Underdark races. The Keeper of the Thaal (Underdark 179) dwells in the Vault, and has created or achieved control over a number of thaalud, and uses them as retrievers of loot and and defenders of the hoard. There are groups of tomb tappers all over the Underdark, but outside the boundaries of Buried Realms they're smaller and far less likely to interact directly with travelers who mind their own business (but how many adventurers does that describe?). Within the Buried Realms, the thaalud are organized and aggressive in their attempts to acquire magic for their master. Thus, since the vast majority of the tomb tappers who are actually encountered are part of the group controlled by the Keeper of the Thaal (almost inevitably the remains of an arcanist, or possibly someone even older than Netheril) the common story is that all thaalud are controlled by him, and some even say that the tomb tappers are only found in the northern underdark of the Realms.
Just my take.
I'm liking your take... perhaps the Keeper's Thaalud are enchanted or somehow physically/mentally altered. One possibility is that tome tappers originally had no particular beef with the phaerimm, and what the Netherese did was to magically implant that into them. This would make them not so much constructs as a created sub-race of tappers. |
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 20:45:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I'm liking your take... perhaps the Keeper's Thaalud are enchanted or somehow physically/mentally altered. One possibility is that tome tappers originally had no particular beef with the phaerimm, and what the Netherese did was to magically implant that into them. This would make them not so much constructs as a created sub-race of tappers.
I like that... I think that's where I would go with it. There's grounds for certain arcanists having created original species (just like there's reason to believe that the Imaskari did) but I would hate to see it used as a convenient origin for a large number of critters.
It should also be the case that the majority of their experiments failed. Undoubtedly a handful of arcanists (most of them not at all prominent, because much of Netheril's "nobility" would likely have been disgusted by their work if it was widely known) were experimenting in breeding/blending new creatures. However, I think the following factors would severely limit how many of these experiments we will see "today."
1. Many of these experimental creatures would not live long; litters of them would kill each other in the process of growing up, or their organs would simply not be sufficient to sustain their bodies. Think crazy genetic mutations and fatal birth defects.
2. Of the ones that survived to adolescence, many would not be capable of reproduction; in some cases the creature would be unique and incompatible with other species, and in others it just wouldn't have a functioning reproductive system.
3. Of the ones that were fertile, most would not "breed true."
4. Of the ones that did breed true, most of them would have been killed on sight (if possible) by anyone other than their creator. And it's really hard to keep pets/children secret for long periods of time.
5. Of the ones that escaped, or were able to remain in hiding wherever they were "born" many would not be social creatures, meaning they wouldn't form communities that would enable them to survive more than a generation or two.
6. Of the ones that formed any sort of culture, most would have been wiped out by the same combination of hunting phaerimm and spreading desertification that destroyed the human survivor states.
7. Most of the ones that adapted or left the desert would have been killed by the humans of the surrounding lands, who would naturally be fearful and unwilling to share their land with these bizarre aberrations.
That's just off the top of my head. Anyone with a background in anthropology or biology could probably add more reasons why the overwhelming majority of created creatures would not "make it."
So there should (in my opinion) only be one or two new races that survived the fall of Netheril... the thaalud could be one of them, or the only one... but maybe there's something lurking undiscovered in the ruins of an enclave that's still buried under the High Ice.
I'm just saying there's a limited number of slots open for "this was created by the Netherese, and survives to the current day" and we might want to leave them open for something more interesting (in terms of lore connections and expansions of Netheril) than the thaalud.
Of course, that's all talking about some kind of objective truth. Most human sages of current time, 1700+ years after the fall of Netheril, will probably fall back on the easy assumption that Netheril was the oldest civilization of sentient creatures in the region of Anauroch and therefore anything unusual found on/under the sands must trace its roots to Netheril.
Most human sages conveniently forget the elves of Aryvandaar, and know nothing about Isstossefifil.
Ymmv. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 13:36:27
|
"Blending" creatures was a common practice among Netherese arcanists. Karsus was rather fond of it. Hmm, who knows, it might be he who "popularized" that practice. So, xaeyruudh, your theory is probably close to the mark. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
The Thaluud
