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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Jan 2013 : 14:09:46
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I was in the library last night, in the restricted section, and I read something rather odd about a rare piece of magic. It’s called as I understand it:
Arcing Death I came across the spell while reading and I didn't fully understand it.
Arcing Death
Evocation [Electricity]
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft.+ 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: 1 target
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes
One of the more unpleasant spells in the lightning specialist’s arsenal, this potent attack spell surrounds a target with several coruscating bands of electricity that deal 1d8 points of damage per caster level to the target, with a Fortitude save for half damage. In addition, the target is knocked unconscious for 1 round per caster level if the Fortitude save is failed, and is stunned for 1d6 rounds even if the Fortitude save is successful.
Material Component: A copper wire shaped into a ring.
Now, as I see it, only something immune to electricity will not be effected by the stun. Can someone elaborate on this please?
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2013 : 14:21:34
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| I would say the stun component is caused by a concussive force, something like a thunderclap at point blank. It's like being immune to heat and fire but still violently thrown by a warhead's "brisance" (explosive shock force), or being bullet-proof (assuming bullets just bounce off instead of penetrating) but still being pushed around and staggered by their transferred momentum. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Jan 2013 14:24:04 |
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe
151 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2013 : 23:11:16
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Based on the way it's written, I'd say that any target that has to make a Fortitude save, is subject to the secondary KO and Stun effect. If you're immune to the electrical damage, you are immune to the secondary effects as well. Arguably, as a GM I'd also rule that if the target could reduce the electrical damage to 0 via Electricity Resistance, the secondary effects would also be canceled in that situation, as the target doesn't suffer the side effects of being electrocuted.
From a balance perspective, I'd also add that I find this particular spell pretty broken TBH. A level 5 spell that causes 1d8 damage per level, apparently with no upper limit, AND has the ability to effectively take someone down, even if they survive the damage, AND severely hamper them for 1d6 rounds, even if they make their save...
I love the concept, but if you want to use it, I'd say dial it down to 1d6/level, max. 20d6, remove the KO effect, and let the target be stunned for 1d3 rounds if the save is failed, and just suffer half damage if the save is made. As it's written it's effectively a save-or-die spell with a high damage output potential, and a severe hampering effect, even if the save is made. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 00:31:56
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"In addition, the target is knocked unconscious for 1 round per caster level if the Fortitude save is failed, and is stunned for 1d6 rounds even if the Fortitude save is successful."
Fail the roll and are both, make the save is only stunned. Short of immunity to attack of electric yes any hit, odds are this requires a to hit touch spell roll, any effected would be stunned with no escape from it.
I would though think it should have been if not listed as such a touch spell in order to have any effect. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 00:34:43
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It is very similar to the thunderstaff spells (and actual thunder staves) of earlier editions, in terms of damage and effects.
Although I agree that, at a glance, the spell seems a little imba ... I think installing a damage cap of about 12d8 (but leaving the other effects unchanged) would be enough to keep it in line with other fifth level spells, compared vs sixth level chain lightning.
Apparently you've never regained consciousness on the opposite side of the room while servicing transmission capacitors. Yay for safety-grounded mesh suits, but I can assure you such a blast basically overloads and reboots you, it's very stunning. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 19 Jan 2013 00:35:14 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 01:14:54
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Oh, did see it is a range touch spell. Which of course requires a hit roll.
Ayrik 24 volts do not bother me much, even 100 I get away with. It is a Amps that appear to count.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 01:32:48
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Haha, 24V is nothing, I'm talking about big (R2D2-sized) superceramic caps rated for over 200kV st hundreds of Farads. Even when "discharged" they still hold enough residual to melt metal and hurl people like ragdolls.
Now I begin to wonder about potential capacitance (electrical attacks) on a well-designed clay golem. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 18:47:48
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I’m pretty sure the spell in question is not a ranged touch spell, or are you talking about something different, that Imp not aware of?
BTW... I must say I find the spell extremely powerful, and I don’t really know whether or not to incorporate it in any of my games. Obviously my wizard would love it, but it might even be too much for him.
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Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 19 Jan 2013 18:52:16 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 19:21:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Now, as I see it, only something immune to electricity will not be effected by the stun. Can someone elaborate on this please?
Creatures immune to any effect requiring a Fortitude save wouldn't be effected. Nor would creatures immune to Stun effects.
As it happens, Undead and Constructs fall into those two categories.
I'd bend the rules a bit around Constructs made of metal (clockwork creatures and the like), but that's just me. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 19:40:18
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Alright after careful consideration it does appear it is not a ranged touch spell.
It appears more of an area effect spell around one target.
As to if you should permit in your game, that is clearly up to you. What I would advise you to consider is if an attacking spell caster certainly would want to use the spell. If the PC party would go down quick because of low saves, if the spell is too powerful for level it is listed as. Of course as each spell can only effect one member and most parties should be at least 4 it clearly is possible the spell can not be used long enough to take the party out. Either caster would not have that many to cast or will be killed before can cast that many times.
I clearly would not want a PC party of 4 to encounter 4 spell casters and all had this spell as first attack. *G* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 19 Jan 2013 20:02:40 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 19:59:03
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quote:
Jeremy Grenemyer
I'd bend the rules a bit around Constructs made of metal (clockwork creatures and the like), but that's just me.
This is reasonable if you're striving for "realism".
But then you'd have to ask why doesn't a full-body suit of metal chain/plate armor provide complete Faraday cage immunity vs lightning and electrical attacks? (Check nifty video demonstrating what I mean, for those unfamiliar with the physics - I think it's safe to say this fellow would be BBQ'd without his chainmail.) |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 19 Jan 2013 20:42:22 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 20:58:17
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Dude, that video is awesome.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
But then you'd have to ask why doesn't a full-body suit of metal chain/plate armor provide complete Faraday cage immunity vs lightning and electrical attacks?
Fortunately for me, I've always had science-minded geeks at my gaming table that are forgiving when it comes to me trying to tell a good story.
This is kind of off the topic, but have you seen any game rules built around the concept of Faraday cage-like protection for those in armor?
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 21:12:37
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| AD&D 2E ("2.5E") Players Option: Spells & Magic offers some scientific detail about lightning and electrical attacks, and I recall the topic repeatedly received a little shallow treatment in early Dragon issues, and I can't recall which module (or setting) had a unique gnomish "power armor" which applied this principle to grant the wearer electrical immunity. Otherwise, no, Faraday's science seems to be entirely ignored within D&D rules and settings. Perhaps it is too anti-intuitive for the youngest players to grasp, perhaps it's just not as visually engaging as Tesla's science. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 21:56:02
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Perhaps its "magic" electricity, and therefore works differentially.
Can it be true that undead are immune to this spell?
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 22:16:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Perhaps its "magic" electricity, and therefore works differentially.
Can it be true that undead are immune to this spell?
I do not see undead immune, they still have Fortitude save even if they have no Con Stat. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 01:12:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Otherwise, no, Faraday's science seems to be entirely ignored within D&D rules and settings.
Hrm...well, were it up to me, I'd insist a piece of metal "worn or carried into battle, that's been struck by natural or magical lightening" be the material component for a spell that grants immunity to electricity.
Kind of a wink and a nod to Faraday, you know? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 01:40:31
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The material component approach does seem better for a fantasy world. Science doesn't work (properly), so defend vs "magical electricity" with magical items and properties.
But, imagine a D&D world where fighters (and armies/formations of fighters) encased in enough conductive metal mass are highly resistant to lightnings. Squishy wizards beware, especially in wet terrains/conditions which hinder fire magics!
Although there's always heat metal. Or spells which force targets to stand or walk through water (or mud, ice, etc) which can be lightning-targeted instead. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 18:27:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Perhaps its "magic" electricity, and therefore works differentially.
Can it be true that undead are immune to this spell?
I do not see undead immune, they still have Fortitude save even if they have no Con Stat.
Because the stun is a (side)-effect of the high electrical damage. And since undead is not immune to electricity they(undead) should take the damage. Since you cant stun or knock out objects, they (again undead) wont be effected by the secondary effect!
That to me is the way this should play out... any comments??? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 18:51:26
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| Ah, aren't undead and constructs immune to all types of stun regardless of the source? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 19:01:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Ah, aren't undead and constructs immune to all types of stun regardless of the source?
Indeed I believe they are!
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 19:37:04
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quote:
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
They would not be immune to energy attack, just stun or unconscious is the way I would read it. The write up indicates word target, there is no reason target could not be an object. Others clearly could rule that target needs to be living creature, undead and constructs would not be effected if that view is taken of course. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 20:29:54
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Some guy over at "Giants in the playground" forum says, that without it stating: "Objects" under the saving throw line, you cant even cast it on an object.
Does anyone agree? |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 20:53:41
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quote:
Target or Targets
Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
If the target of a spell is yourself (the spell description has a line that reads Target: You), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The Saving Throw and Spell Resistance lines are omitted from such spells.
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Hmm, there is this quote:
(object)
The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature’s saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. (This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects.) A magic item’s saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + one-half the item’s caster level.
I do not see anything here that prevents a spell being cast that does not have word (object) in it.
For example Fabricate does not have (object) listed under saving throw and the spell target is clearly an object, you can not fabricate a creature. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 20 Jan 2013 20:55:05 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 21:04:59
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To boost my argument quote:
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage.
A fireball could be cast at a tree, a wooden house, siege tower rather then a creature. Of course few unattended objects have reflex score *Grin* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 21:11:30
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| Yes, fire can burn unliving things. But unliving things without (normal) nervous systems just can't be stunned, things like zombies and golems and Ford trucks. Gonna try to taser a store mannequin until it's stunned or falls unconscious? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 21:20:46
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| Ayrik, I am looking at electrical effect on undead would still occur. Gave up a long time ago trying to stun undead, though I would think an intelligent undead like a vampire could in someways be stunned or confused. - The rules however does not appear to support that concept. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 21:44:55
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Haha, I thought we'd already agreed the rules are "magical" and "unrealistic" in the finer details.
But what other electrical effect could there be? Damage is already abstracted into points. Stun seems inapplicable. Intense "dazzle" and "thunderclap" effects can momentarily blind or deafen people near the discharge, but don't really apply to (most) undead. I doubt that a ferro-bearing construct would be especially inconvenienced by becoming magnetized (that is, having a uniformly polarized magnetic field, of very weak fridge-magnet strength).
Perhaps electrical sparks could ignite mummies, given their dessicated flesh/wrappings and mysterious embalming chemicals.
Other than that, the only electrical effect I can imagine is the undead acting as a conductor, like a patch cord simply bridging the electrical circuit to another target which is otherwise barely out of range. Then again, undead might have strong dielectric properties and basically function as insulators; in which case electrical current simply will not flow through them. No current = no volts, no heat, no chemical catalysis, no "other" effects.
Unless, of course, the "magic electricity" behaves differently. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Jan 2013 21:45:36 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 11:55:27
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As long as we are on the theme of spells, and overpowered at that, I would like to add another to the list, just to hear your thoughts on it. I know what I think, but what about the sages at Candlekeep. Here goes:
Ball Lightning
Evocation (Electricity)
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Reflex negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
When this spell is cast, a crackling sphere of
pure electrical energy appears between the
caster’s hands. This ball then shoots off to
whichever target the caster designates within
the spell’s range. If the target fails a Reflex
save, the ball does 1d6 points of electrical damage
per caster level to the target. Each round, as
a free action, the caster can direct the ball to a
new target, or have it attack the original target
again.
Material Component: A small amber
sphere. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 14:27:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I was in the library last night, in the restricted section, and I read something rather odd about a rare piece of magic. It’s called as I understand it:
Arcing Death I came across the spell while reading and I didn't fully understand it.
Arcing Death
Evocation [Electricity]
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft.+ 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: 1 target
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes
One of the more unpleasant spells in the lightning specialist’s arsenal, this potent attack spell surrounds a target with several coruscating bands of electricity that deal 1d8 points of damage per caster level to the target, with a Fortitude save for half damage. In addition, the target is knocked unconscious for 1 round per caster level if the Fortitude save is failed, and is stunned for 1d6 rounds even if the Fortitude save is successful.
Material Component: A copper wire shaped into a ring.
Now, as I see it, only something immune to electricity will not be effected by the stun. Can someone elaborate on this please?
Where'd you find this? This thing is so broken. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 14:36:25
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What is the source of these spells? If from the Paizo SRD then they're technically for a "compatible" game which is not actually D&D, a game with different power levels and balances.
Compare with this version. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 15:08:55
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I was in the library last night, in the restricted section, and I read something rather odd about a rare piece of magic. It’s called as I understand it:
Arcing Death I came across the spell while reading and I didn't fully understand it.
Arcing Death
Evocation [Electricity]
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft.+ 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: 1 target
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes
One of the more unpleasant spells in the lightning specialist’s arsenal, this potent attack spell surrounds a target with several coruscating bands of electricity that deal 1d8 points of damage per caster level to the target, with a Fortitude save for half damage. In addition, the target is knocked unconscious for 1 round per caster level if the Fortitude save is failed, and is stunned for 1d6 rounds even if the Fortitude save is successful.
Material Component: A copper wire shaped into a ring.
Now, as I see it, only something immune to electricity will not be effected by the stun. Can someone elaborate on this please?
Where'd you find this? This thing is so broken.
Legends and Lairs: School of Evocation. Its nice huh?
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Help with a spell
